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Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
TX,
To paraphrase the late Sen. Dirksen, "a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon your're talking serious money". Some guys like to get the extra leather or CF stuff because, for them, the appearance is worth the cash. Personally, I would go for the functional stuff first, like the Adaptives, PCCB (just icing on the cake, I'll admit), thicker steering wheel, etc. then get the appearance items if you can/want. You got a nice plan there with those options. Great car, you'll love it.
To paraphrase the late Sen. Dirksen, "a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon your're talking serious money". Some guys like to get the extra leather or CF stuff because, for them, the appearance is worth the cash. Personally, I would go for the functional stuff first, like the Adaptives, PCCB (just icing on the cake, I'll admit), thicker steering wheel, etc. then get the appearance items if you can/want. You got a nice plan there with those options. Great car, you'll love it.
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Quote:
KJB said:
TX,
To paraphrase the late Sen. Dirksen, "a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon your're talking serious money". Some guys like to get the extra leather or CF stuff because, for them, the appearance is worth the cash. Personally, I would go for the functional stuff first, like the Adaptives, PCCB (just icing on the cake, I'll admit), thicker steering wheel, etc. then get the appearance items if you can/want. You got a nice plan there with those options. Great car, you'll love it.
Really depends on what you want to do with the car. If youŕe just going to use it for a year or two, skip the leather and carbon trim, but if you plan to keep the car until the new one comes out, then it might be worth it for you to spec it exactly as you want - of couuse it still doesn't make sense financially
.
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Sounds like a well equipped car, I would stick with the truly functional options and minimize the fluff. The only fluff I got was the leather door finishers (XTV). The key options are LSD, adaptive seats, sport shifter and Sport Chrono. I'm with you, nothin wrong with the Big Reds at all, the folks who track their Porsches regularly will agree. Enjoy! When do you get the car? Which dealer?
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Quote:
TX 911 said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
If $ is a concern ditch:
3-spoke mutifctn str whl
XMP Lthr sun visors
XMZ Rear console leather
XTV Door finishers leather
CDZ Gear lev trim lthr
CPA Thicker Multifcn whl
CUV Storage lid Model logo
CUX Release lever seats lthr
CVP Trim strip leather
DAD Gear lev/Handbrake alum/lthr
CCP PCM package Alum look
CDA Air vent slats alum look
CDD Y trim strng whl alum look
& get PCCB's.
$8800 would not stop me from getting the PCCBs on this car, if there was a fairly unanimous consensus that they are the way to go. What I've seen posted is just the opposite...the big reds are just great.
You'll never find a "unanimous consensus" on a message forum especially when it comes to the fact some people have one type and others have different so they want to justify their decision. If the money is no concern like you mention than answer this - If the PCCB were a no cost option, what % of people would get them? I think you'd find the majority of people would. My point being - Getting or not getting PCCB's is more of a financial decision not whether one type is preferrable over the other. In terms of performance it's pretty well documented the PCCB's are better performing/less unsprung weight/are much cleaner keeping your wheels in better shape & don't require as much cleaning/ wont create rust on your wheel hubs/ & don't look like rusty garbage can covers/. Subjectively most will agree look way better too.
From someone that has had Ceramics on my last 2 Ferrari's and steel on my last 2 Porsche's I will tell you, I will never again own a Porsche w/ steel. Biggest mistake I made when ordering my 997 S cab. and the ONLY thing about the car I hate. But at the time I didn't realize what a disaster they were going to be, my 996 turbo's steel were fine. But I knew my 997 S cab was only going to be temporary till the turbo cab was out hence the second reason for not spending the money on PCCB's. If the turbo is just a transition car for some then maintaining/the upkeep on the steel might not be a big deal.
Bottom line - If you take the $ out of the equation & just compared both set-ups on performance plus everything else and asked 100 guys that ordered steel if they could have PCCB's at no extra cost I bet 95 would change their order & pick the PCCB's. And if you asked 100 guys with PCCB'S if they didn't have to pay the $8k would they still choose the PCCB's I bet 99 would. Probably as close as "unanimous consensus" as you're going to get. My un-scientific theory only makes sense of course if what you say is true and it's not the money that is the decision maker.
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Stradale..
I didn't say "money is no concern". It obviously plays a role in any car purchase. To take your analogy the other way, if PCCB was $50,000, no one would get them.
The real decision everyone has to make for themselves, is whether a particular option is worth the money for them.
All I'm saying is, if I had heard more bad things about the standard brakes, or heard more "must-have" opinions on the PCCB, $8800 would not stop me personally from ordering them. For someone else, $8800 might be a deal-breaker no matter how great they are.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the steel brakes will not diminish my enjoyment of the car one iota.
I didn't say "money is no concern". It obviously plays a role in any car purchase. To take your analogy the other way, if PCCB was $50,000, no one would get them.
The real decision everyone has to make for themselves, is whether a particular option is worth the money for them.
All I'm saying is, if I had heard more bad things about the standard brakes, or heard more "must-have" opinions on the PCCB, $8800 would not stop me personally from ordering them. For someone else, $8800 might be a deal-breaker no matter how great they are.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the steel brakes will not diminish my enjoyment of the car one iota.
PCCB Brake
I agree that cost is the "heart of the matter." However some of us could absorb a reasonable cost if that is the only issue, and "therein lies the rub." I believe other lingering questions for people on the fence like me:
1. Replacement cost: 3-5k per rotor? The rotors have been reported to last to 47k miles. But is this 47k miles the norm? I plan to keep this turbo at least 4 years. When will this bill come? The possibility of a fifteen thousand dollar brake service down the line is daunting.
2. If PCCB is better, why is the stopping distance not shorter? Does it not mean PCCB is only "subjectively" better?
3. In the wet: Some (including RC I believe) have said the first brake application in heavy rain or after a car wash *could* be an eye-opening experience; the brake doesn't work for a split second or so. Others have denied this problem ever happening. The fact of this issue being mentioned at all is a big problem for me. My worst case scenario: The P car is a daily driver, when it rains there are occasional "pools" on freeways that sometimes I go through without seeing, and there have been times that I had to apply the brake while driving through these pools.
4. I've seen discussions of hairline cracks in the rotors or pads: whether they are "normal wear and tear," whether small ones are ok, etc. A picture of a rotor would be posted, some would say normal, others advise to replace immediately (Sorry I've read many posts on PCCB but don't keep the exact quotes. Admittedly these are mostly PCCB I discussions, but will PCCB II be completely different?), and these include people who should know, such as dealers. I don't like this uncertainty and the implication that I have to, or IMO "should," always keep the brake condition in mind, outside of routine maintenance. Here I would say cost, AND time, are issues.
5. Someone corrects me if I am wrong: But is it true PCCB rotors don't wear like their steel counterpart; they just become structurally unsound? I could see down the road a situation where the dealers think the rotor "might" need to be replaced. At 8k per axle, vs. one's safety, this will be "disturbing."
6. Accidental breakage from gravel or tire change. Life is too short for me to worry about this one.
From what I have read, nearly all PCCB owners give it extremely high rating and think it is worth the money. So despite of the above negative's, I am still on the fence. Right now I am actually leaning towards "maybe" getting it. Mainly for the brake dust advantage and the fact that they look so pretty in yellow.
1. Replacement cost: 3-5k per rotor? The rotors have been reported to last to 47k miles. But is this 47k miles the norm? I plan to keep this turbo at least 4 years. When will this bill come? The possibility of a fifteen thousand dollar brake service down the line is daunting.
2. If PCCB is better, why is the stopping distance not shorter? Does it not mean PCCB is only "subjectively" better?
3. In the wet: Some (including RC I believe) have said the first brake application in heavy rain or after a car wash *could* be an eye-opening experience; the brake doesn't work for a split second or so. Others have denied this problem ever happening. The fact of this issue being mentioned at all is a big problem for me. My worst case scenario: The P car is a daily driver, when it rains there are occasional "pools" on freeways that sometimes I go through without seeing, and there have been times that I had to apply the brake while driving through these pools.
4. I've seen discussions of hairline cracks in the rotors or pads: whether they are "normal wear and tear," whether small ones are ok, etc. A picture of a rotor would be posted, some would say normal, others advise to replace immediately (Sorry I've read many posts on PCCB but don't keep the exact quotes. Admittedly these are mostly PCCB I discussions, but will PCCB II be completely different?), and these include people who should know, such as dealers. I don't like this uncertainty and the implication that I have to, or IMO "should," always keep the brake condition in mind, outside of routine maintenance. Here I would say cost, AND time, are issues.
5. Someone corrects me if I am wrong: But is it true PCCB rotors don't wear like their steel counterpart; they just become structurally unsound? I could see down the road a situation where the dealers think the rotor "might" need to be replaced. At 8k per axle, vs. one's safety, this will be "disturbing."
6. Accidental breakage from gravel or tire change. Life is too short for me to worry about this one.
From what I have read, nearly all PCCB owners give it extremely high rating and think it is worth the money. So despite of the above negative's, I am still on the fence. Right now I am actually leaning towards "maybe" getting it. Mainly for the brake dust advantage and the fact that they look so pretty in yellow.
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Quote:
TX 911 said:
Stradale..
I didn't say "money is no concern". It obviously plays a role in any car purchase. To take your analogy the other way, if PCCB was $50,000, no one would get them.
The real decision everyone has to make for themselves, is whether a particular option is worth the money for them.
All I'm saying is, if I had heard more bad things about the standard brakes, or heard more "must-have" opinions on the PCCB, $8800 would not stop me personally from ordering them. For someone else, $8800 might be a deal-breaker no matter how great they are.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the steel brakes will not diminish my enjoyment of the car one iota.
You're not going to get many people here w/ steel brakes telling you how much they suck, maybe afraid they'll diminish their cars re-sale value or who knows, funny thing is how many guys I know feel the same way I do and talk about it in person.
$50K ? LOL!! No, not really my analogy the other way. Kinda missed the point, maybe say $18k like the CCM's on the 430 in which most Ferrari nuts swear by including this one. You're right though about which particular option is worth the money to them. All I was saying is that for the price all the little leather & alum. options this and cosmetic options that, you could almost have a better performing braking system in a high end sports car but for some the extra leather pieces are more important. You asked. But it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind. Good luck.
Re: PCCB Brake
Quote:
cannga said:
I agree that cost is the "heart of the matter." However some of us could absorb a reasonable cost if that is the only issue, and "therein lies the rub." I believe other lingering questions for people on the fence like me:
1. Replacement cost: 3-5k per rotor? The rotors have been reported to last to 47k miles. But is this 47k miles the norm? I plan to keep this turbo at least 4 years. When will this bill come? The possibility of a fifteen thousand dollar brake service down the line is daunting.
2. If PCCB is better, why is the stopping distance not shorter? Does it not mean PCCB is only "subjectively" better?
3. In the wet: Some (including RC I believe) have said the first brake application in heavy rain or after a car wash *could* be an eye-opening experience; the brake doesn't work for a split second or so. Others have denied this problem ever happening. The fact of this issue being mentioned at all is a big problem for me. My worst case scenario: The P car is a daily driver, when it rains there are occasional "pools" on freeways that sometimes I go through without seeing, and there have been times that I had to apply the brake while driving through these pools.
4. I've seen discussions of hairline cracks in the rotors or pads: whether they are "normal wear and tear," whether small ones are ok, etc. A picture of a rotor would be posted, some would say normal, others advise to replace immediately (Sorry I've read many posts on PCCB but don't keep the exact quotes. Admittedly these are mostly PCCB I discussions, but will PCCB II be completely different?), and these include people who should know, such as dealers. I don't like this uncertainty and the implication that I have to, or IMO "should," always keep the brake condition in mind, outside of routine maintenance. Here I would say cost, AND time, are issues.
5. Someone corrects me if I am wrong: But is it true PCCB rotors don't wear like their steel counterpart; they just become structurally unsound? I could see down the road a situation where the dealers think the rotor "might" need to be replaced. At 8k per axle, vs. one's safety, this will be "disturbing."
6. Accidental breakage from gravel or tire change. Life is too short for me to worry about this one.
From what I have read, nearly all PCCB owners give it extremely high rating and think it is worth the money. So despite of the above negative's, I am still on the fence. Right now I am actually leaning towards "maybe" getting it. Mainly for the brake dust advantage and the fact that they look so pretty in yellow.
I don't get the IF I have to replace a rotor it's going to cost too much money thing. Why even risk getting a turbo then it's possible you may over-rev and have to replace an entire motor. Or who knows what you may break by accident and it wont be covered. Dun no but to me it's like saying I love the color but better not spend the money on GT-Silver paint in case I have to repaint the car. But who knows, I know I'm kinda out of the box a lot of times.
Where'd you hear 47k miles for PCCB rotors? I've seen reports w/ PCCB's at over 200,000 miles with little or NO wear whatsover. And I've heard of another report although even I'm skeptical of 400,000 mile life.
If "cost, AND time, are issues" you should sit down w/ the service manager and review maintaince costs of steel vs. PCCB, I did. W/ PCCB rotors you don't need to change rotors w/ every/every other (depends how much of the pads life you used) pad change. Steel rotors are pretty cheap but by the time you add in resurfacing or new rotors, labor etc. it adds up. Basically the more miles you drive the more money the steel brake system will cost you vs. PCCB's. For the time I plan to hold my turbo the steel system would cost me about $3000 more to maintain. But if you don't really drive aggressively or drive only 3 or 4k miles a year it's not going to cost you that much more to maintain the steel system.
You're making the right decisison though imho of course. Okay, I'm done w/ this topic, no use beating a dead horse. Movie time at my house, later!
Mar 31, 2007 4:32:07 AM
- silverrules
- Senior
-
- Loc: N. Calif , United States
- Posts: 784, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 5, 2005
- Reply to: STRADALE
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
TX 911 said:
Stradale..
I didn't say "money is no concern". It obviously plays a role in any car purchase. To take your analogy the other way, if PCCB was $50,000, no one would get them.
The real decision everyone has to make for themselves, is whether a particular option is worth the money for them.
All I'm saying is, if I had heard more bad things about the standard brakes, or heard more "must-have" opinions on the PCCB, $8800 would not stop me personally from ordering them. For someone else, $8800 might be a deal-breaker no matter how great they are.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the steel brakes will not diminish my enjoyment of the car one iota.
You're not going to get many people here w/ steel brakes telling you how much they suck, maybe afraid they'll diminish their cars re-sale value or who knows, funny thing is how many guys I know feel the same way I do and talk about it in person.
$50K ? LOL!! No, not really my analogy the other way. Kinda missed the point, maybe say $18k like the CCM's on the 430 in which most Ferrari nuts swear by including this one. You're right though about which particular option is worth the money to them. All I was saying is that for the price all the little leather & alum. options this and cosmetic options that, you could almost have a better performing braking system in a high end sports car but for some the extra leather pieces are more important. You asked. But it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind. Good luck.
Greg, I have steel on my 997S cab and it SUCKS. So there
After having the PCCB on my 997TT, I will also never buy a Porsche w/o them. My 1st option will be Sport chrono, 2nd PCCB followed by Adaptive sport seat and last center consol in leather. Everything else is just nice to have. Cant wait to get my 997TT CAB
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
Quote:
TX 911 said:
Thanks for all the input so far...
I'm thinking I will:
DELETE - PCM Alum Look
ADD - Adaptive Sport Seats
DELETE - Leather seat release
ADD - Doors sills stainless (still not sure about the illuminated part)
KEEP - The Big Reds
Good move. Our cars are optioned very similiar. Ideally I should of gotten the PCM done in leather but I had to draw the line. For me the extra leather just gives the interior of the car a "hand made" feel. My 997S had full leather and that was one of the best options on the car, especially when you campare it to the standard car. I wanted my Turbo to feel a notch better visually too. But to each his own and thats the beauty of ordering a Porsche. As far as PCCb's go, at $9592.00 option in CA. (yes don't forget to add tax and lic to $8800) I passed. When I am convinced that the yellows are better than the reds FOR THE MONEY, I'll sell my reds and get the yellows (not in that order). The problem is I can't even find a Turbo to test drive and that just shouldn't be. When Porsche figures it out maybe we can even compare the 2 brake systems for ourselves and see if PCCB's are a must have option? The Gt3 on the other hand is much lighter and I would want to keep it that way, so the PCCB's would make more sense, at least to me. The turbo is a heavy weight and its going to take a lot more than PCCB's to change that. just my .02
Re: PCCB Brake
Hello Stradale,
No movie for me but I took a break too to take my daughter to a rock concert at the Avalon in Hollywood. Anyway, one good post deserves another; now then is my turn for *my* last words, from the non-PCCB side of me :
The turbo engine has proven subjective and objective (0-60 time, seat-of-the-pants time, lap time, etc.) advantages over its NA counterpart. I am not sure the same could be said about PCCB vs. big red. PCCB's subjective rating is excellent, but stopping time as mentioned is no better. I have not found convincing evidence that the lower unsprung weight and lack of fade are of importance in non-professional hands, in non-track driving. And as mentioned, there is that issue of "wet PCCB."
With respect to reliability, the 997 turbo engine derives from one of known excellent durability. PCCB II came from PCCB I, which is at best suspicious. If used in a reasonable fashion, could anyone state with some certainty that a reasonable majority (no I am not a lawyer ) of PCCB II rotors will survive to 50,000, or 100,000 miles? Your service advisor and report of 200,000 to 400,000 mile durability notwithstanding, I have not seen any statement to that effect. PCCB II has not been out long enough to have enough data points for a meaningful conclusion (I mean, how many 911 out there, outside of test cars, that have 100,000 miles, let alone 200,000, and PCCB??), and PCCB I's record is spotty.
With respect to repair, an engine problem has a fighting chance of being fixed under warranty, at least during the first four years. PCCB's breakdown, however, more likely would be "wear and tear," non-warranty work.
So I am not sure I could agree with your analogy. FWIW, your, and other owners', rather passionate PCCB posts were what got me on the fence in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
....I've seen reports w/ PCCB's at over 200,000 miles with little or NO wear whatsover....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Isn't it true that PCCB, being ceramic, doesn't show wear like its steel counterpart?
BTW, I could even foresee a problem with trying to sell a PCCB car down the road. If I were a buyer, I for sure would look very carefully at those PCCB rotors. The problem is that if a PCCB rotor "looks" good, does it mean it is good? How could one tell problem under the surface? Would I as the buyer then ask for new PCCB rotors?
In one aspect, I agree with you: "If I were a rich man," this would be a non issue. PCCB TT for dry weather, non PCCB
TT when it rains. But since I am not, sigh...
No movie for me but I took a break too to take my daughter to a rock concert at the Avalon in Hollywood. Anyway, one good post deserves another; now then is my turn for *my* last words, from the non-PCCB side of me
:
The turbo engine has proven subjective and objective (0-60 time, seat-of-the-pants time, lap time, etc.) advantages over its NA counterpart. I am not sure the same could be said about PCCB vs. big red. PCCB's subjective rating is excellent, but stopping time as mentioned is no better. I have not found convincing evidence that the lower unsprung weight and lack of fade are of importance in non-professional hands, in non-track driving. And as mentioned, there is that issue of "wet PCCB."
With respect to reliability, the 997 turbo engine derives from one of known excellent durability. PCCB II came from PCCB I, which is at best suspicious. If used in a reasonable fashion, could anyone state with some certainty that a reasonable majority (no I am not a lawyer
) of PCCB II rotors will survive to 50,000, or 100,000 miles? Your service advisor and report of 200,000 to 400,000 mile durability notwithstanding, I have not seen any statement to that effect. PCCB II has not been out long enough to have enough data points for a meaningful conclusion (I mean, how many 911 out there, outside of test cars, that have 100,000 miles, let alone 200,000, and PCCB??), and PCCB I's record is spotty.
With respect to repair, an engine problem has a fighting chance of being fixed under warranty, at least during the first four years. PCCB's breakdown, however, more likely would be "wear and tear," non-warranty work.
So I am not sure I could agree with your analogy. FWIW, your, and other owners', rather passionate PCCB posts were what got me on the fence in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
....I've seen reports w/ PCCB's at over 200,000 miles with little or NO wear whatsover....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Isn't it true that PCCB, being ceramic, doesn't show wear like its steel counterpart?
BTW, I could even foresee a problem with trying to sell a PCCB car down the road. If I were a buyer, I for sure would look very carefully at those PCCB rotors. The problem is that if a PCCB rotor "looks" good, does it mean it is good? How could one tell problem under the surface? Would I as the buyer then ask for new PCCB rotors?
In one aspect, I agree with you: "If I were a rich man," this would be a non issue. PCCB TT for dry weather, non PCCB
TT when it rains. But since I am not, sigh...
Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
cannga said:
....
1. Replacement cost: 3-5k per rotor? The rotors have been reported to last to 47k miles. But is this 47k miles the norm? I plan to keep this turbo at least 4 years. When will this bill come? The possibility of a fifteen thousand dollar brake service down the line is daunting.
...
I don't get the IF I have to replace a rotor it's going to cost too much money thing. Why even risk getting a turbo then it's possible you may over-rev and have to replace an entire motor. Or who knows what you may break by accident and it wont be covered. Dun no but to me it's like saying I love the color but better not spend the money on GT-Silver paint in case I have to repaint the car. But who knows, I know I'm kinda out of the box a lot of times.
Where'd you hear 47k miles for PCCB rotors? I've seen reports w/ PCCB's at over 200,000 miles with little or NO wear whatsover. And I've heard of another report although even I'm skeptical of 400,000 mile life.
If "cost, AND time, are issues" you should sit down w/ the service manager and review maintaince costs of steel vs. PCCB, I did. W/ PCCB rotors you don't need to change rotors w/ every/every other (depends how much of the pads life you used) pad change. Steel rotors are pretty cheap but by the time you add in resurfacing or new rotors, labor etc. it adds up. Basically the more miles you drive the more money the steel brake system will cost you vs. PCCB's. For the time I plan to hold my turbo the steel system would cost me about $3000 more to maintain. But if you don't really drive aggressively or drive only 3 or 4k miles a year it's not going to cost you that much more to maintain the steel system.
You're making the right decisison though imho of course. Okay, I'm done w/ this topic, no use beating a dead horse. Movie time at my house, later!
Mar 31, 2007 7:07:12 PM
- Jim_in_Iowa
- Pilot
-
- Loc: US
- Posts: 336, Gallery
- Registered on: May 18, 2005
- Reply to: gradyex
Re: Allright guys, here's what I'm getting....
When I asked the test driver at Weissach what he thought of the reds versus the yellows, he said he preferred the feel of the yellows and they last longer with the treatment they get there. Now he's obviously biased, working for Porsche, but there were no marketing types around, and it was just the two of us blasting around the track in a 997TT. His comment sounded genuine and natural to me, not rehearsed or having been told what to say.
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