Crown

Forum - Thread


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Fritz, that makes a lot of sense. But one would think that the torque calibration issue could have been identified early on and which engines were involved. Am I missing something? 

    Early on?  As far as we know, only two engines suffered damage as a result of this, and there wouldn't have been enough of the two conrod/bolt assemblies concerned left "in one piece" to provide clear evidence of the root cause of the problems. The only way to check on the fastener torques of the engines which had not (yet?) failed would presumeably be to strip them all down to check in a materials lab whether the bolts had "stretched" (if over-tightened), or needed to be tightened further (if under-torqued). 
    I suspect that the "tool" concerned would be a pneumatic wrench, or similar, which has to be set to the prescribed torque, and needs to be recalibrated at regular intervals, for instance, before every shift . If a previously incorrect setting was not noticed and recorded during the recalibration process, then there would be no "evidence" of it being the cause of the failures and no paper-trail to allow any conclusions to be drawn regarding how many engines  -  and which engines  -  had been assembled with incorrect torque settings.  Smiley 
    This is all speculation, of course, but this scenario would be one which could explain why it took a while to reliably establish the cause of the issue with the two cars involved. A totally "safe" course of action in this mooted situation would be to review the procedure for ensuring correct calibration of the tools and then to start building replacement engines for all the cars already in the field.     


    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Since I don't know how the assembly line is structured, I will ask a stupid question. Are we talking about one tool or are there several that do the same job?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Since I don't know how the assembly line is structured, I will ask a stupid question. Are we talking about one tool or are there several that do the same job?

    That's not a stupid question, Nick, since  -  as you imply. -  the answer depends on how the engine assembly line is structured. The GT3 engines used to be assembled individually by one mechanic per engine, so there would need to be several mechanics working alongside each other, each with his own set of jigs, tools and equipment.

    Someone said above that the system has now been changed, so that all GT3 engines pass down the same assembly line, suggesting that there would only need to be one station for torquing the conrod bolts of all engines. Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    reginos:

    I was told by someone with connections to Porsche that the GT3 uses titanium con rods but they were secured in place with the normal steel con rod bolts from the Carrera engine. These couldn't be secured on the titanium and worked loose with usage and the higher revs, with the known results of crankcase failure, spilled oil and fire. This is supposed to be the root of the problem.

    He didn't know the remedy to be applied. Different type/material of bolts? Same bolts but locked into place using some type of adhesive? Something else?

    The GT3s have used titanium conrods since the first 996 version, so nothing new in that respect. I don't remember for sure offhand if the conrod bolts on earlier versions were also titanium, or steel.  Smiley  
    Titanium screw connections can be a little tricky, calling for a very special (and very expensive!) grease to be used during their assembly as well as for fastening torque to be strictly adhered to, to ensure that the bolts are not overstressed if torque is too high or the bolts do not vibrate loose if the torque is too low. 

    Since Porsche has been assembling production GT3 engines with titanium conrods for the last 15 years (and much longer than that in racing engines) I'd be surprised if they have now suddenly forgotten how to do it properly. 

    For this reason I had suspected that maybe the torque calibration of a tool used to assemble some of the customer engine conrods may have been outside normal tolerances, resulting in the two failures of the conrod screw connections we have heard about. Since it would probably not have been possible to reliably identify the engines assembled with incorrect fastening torques, a simple error like that could result in all engines having to be replaced to rule out further problems. 

    Thank you Fritz for adding your invaluable knowledge.

    The knot is being gradually untied.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The process has been simplified to reduce possible errors but they haven't used the wrong parts, this is just a nice story (like many others on the internet and unfortunately even in some serious publications).  broken heart

    I wish Porsche would publish the real reason with details but I guess this ain't going to happen. angry There is no conspiracy here but I said it before, Porsche is not entirely to blame for this one and they fixed it now.

    However, I wasn't aware that the production moved 6 months behind, this is really unfortunate. It is understandable though that they need to replace the engines on those almost 800 already produced cars first.

    So I guess the GT3 RS is not due until earliest October.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Herbaliser:

    Just got a call from the dealer. The car production date for my GT3 has been postponed from April to October which means that I'm going to cancel my order. If I knew that earlier I could have booked an early slot for a Huracan. Now I have to either switch to a Turbo S with June production or not get a new car at all.

    That really is a big fail for Porsche. Maybe they are too busy planning their next 4-cylinder diesel vehicles for desperate housewives instead of managing expectations and finding a better solution for the customers that are buying their most signature product.

    I wish Ferrari had a fresh model in this segment...

    I try to be honest here and please do not misunderstand me: I don't understand how someone would opt for the GT3, then for the Huracan and then for a MC12 Spider. Smiley  Doesn't make sense to me. Btw: In a large German car magazine, the 991 Turbo S Cab has actually won a comparison to the MC12 Spider. From 0-200 kph, the McLaren was 0.5 seconds faster but on the track, the 991 Turbo S Cab was faster. If you are looking for a "wow" factor, the McLaren surely impresses more (design).

    The 458 Speciale should be a fine car, also the new McLaren S650 should be interesting. There are also quite interesting offers available for slightly used Ferrari F12. Not exactly lightweight but this car rocks.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Porsche build more than 30.000 flat 6 engines in a year. Fitting an extra 800 in the schedule, shouldn't take another 5 or 6 months. Strange


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Porsche build more than 30.000 flat 6 engines in a year. Fitting an extra 800 in the schedule, shouldn't take another 5 or 6 months. Strange

    You guys simply don't get the "new part" thing I mentioned a trillion times. Smiley Now I shut up before I get in legal trouble.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Good news, first engine delivery in Geneva between 9-11 April. Installation in order of priority, so got slot 3 or 4 so depending on delivery, I should be out early May


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    philgva:

    Good news, first engine delivery in Geneva between 9-11 April. Installation in order of priority, so got slot 3 or 4 so depending on delivery, I should be out early May

    Now finally some good news. Smiley Congratulations. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    Herbaliser:

    Just got a call from the dealer. The car production date for my GT3 has been postponed from April to October which means that I'm going to cancel my order. If I knew that earlier I could have booked an early slot for a Huracan. Now I have to either switch to a Turbo S with June production or not get a new car at all.

    That really is a big fail for Porsche. Maybe they are too busy planning their next 4-cylinder diesel vehicles for desperate housewives instead of managing expectations and finding a better solution for the customers that are buying their most signature product.

    I wish Ferrari had a fresh model in this segment...

    I try to be honest here and please do not misunderstand me: I don't understand how someone would opt for the GT3, then for the Huracan and then for a MC12 Spider. Smiley  Doesn't make sense to me. Btw: In a large German car magazine, the 991 Turbo S Cab has actually won a comparison to the MC12 Spider. From 0-200 kph, the McLaren was 0.5 seconds faster but on the track, the 991 Turbo S Cab was faster. If you are looking for a "wow" factor, the McLaren surely impresses more (design).

    The 458 Speciale should be a fine car, also the new McLaren S650 should be interesting. There are also quite interesting offers available for slightly used Ferrari F12. Not exactly lightweight but this car rocks.

     

    For me the GT3 would have been a toy, not a tool for a job and there are other toys that can make me happy. They are just far more expensive. I am looking for a good combination of performance and sensory experience, not the ultimate track time. With the GT3 you get Porsche's practicality as an added bonus. Since it won't happen, there aren't many other options within EUR 50K from it. A 991 TTS could potentially replace my 997TT if I decide to part with it but it won't feed my senses.

    As for the wow-factor - I would expect it from a 2-door car that costs 200+K. I can always hide in my grey M5...which by the way is faster (at higher speeds) and more discreet than a Panamera Turbo S.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Yes, as a "toy car", as you put it, the GT3 certainly makes a lot of sense. It is actually a very good value.

    There are other toy cars though out there: Right now, I am looking at a Ford Shelby GT500 SVT. Quite the offer (65k EUR), not really as refined or as good as a GT3 but for a fun car, really nice. Also you can tweak it power-wise. I also like the Jaguar F-type roadster, the V8 S. My Boxster S has gone to my wife completely (she drives it whenever she can), this is just not the right car for me. Not powerful enough and it just isn't me. A 911 Cab would be maybe a different story but I'm also not the typical cab guy. The new Camaro Z28 is also interesting but for almost 100k EUR (asking price in Germany)? No thanks. I would have paid 65k EUR for it though...

    Also found a nice Ford GT but the asking price was insanely high. Don't know why but this car really appeals to me.

    There are many toy cars but I agree, the GT3 is priced right (though at the "limit" of a real "toy car") and it delivers.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Also found a nice Ford GT but the asking price was insanely high. Don't know why but this car really appeals to me.

    I know what you mean, I've always loved it as well. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Enmanuel:
    RC:

    Also found a nice Ford GT but the asking price was insanely high. Don't know why but this car really appeals to me.

    I know what you mean, I've always loved it as well. 

    I have a friend who has one and he loves it. He has modded it heavily with turbos...Smiley

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hR-ZhGKhKOc

    I was looking at one here in Dubai last year and should have just bought it as they have gone nearly 30% up in price. For me it is the whole package. The power, the sound, the exclusivity. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Yes, as a "toy car", as you put it, the GT3 certainly makes a lot of sense. It is actually a very good value.

    There are other toy cars though out there: Right now, I am looking at a Ford Shelby GT500 SVT. Quite the offer (65k EUR), not really as refined or as good as a GT3 but for a fun car, really nice. Also you can tweak it power-wise. I also like the Jaguar F-type roadster, the V8 S. My Boxster S has gone to my wife completely (she drives it whenever she can), this is just not the right car for me. Not powerful enough and it just isn't me. A 911 Cab would be maybe a different story but I'm also not the typical cab guy. The new Camaro Z28 is also interesting but for almost 100k EUR (asking price in Germany)? No thanks. I would have paid 65k EUR for it though...

    Also found a nice Ford GT but the asking price was insanely high. Don't know why but this car really appeals to me.

    There are many toy cars but I agree, the GT3 is priced right (though at the "limit" of a real "toy car") and it delivers.

     

     

    I still kick myself for not get a Ford GT.  They could have been had at MSRP back when launched, and for a while depreciated like normal cars.  Today. they are pricey.  Sexy, rare and repairs/maintenance reasonable compared to Ferrari or Porsche.

    The Z28 is a beast.  I have one on order.

     


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    1396367549715image.jpg

    Just came back from my local OPC.

    According to them all German 991 GT3  are going back to Stuttgart for the new engines. The factory  will do the change.

    They are already preparing the  Customer cars for the transport. (removing the front lip)

    The pickup will start tomorrow!!

    Blueflame


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Really?? If so, it will be impossible to know if the new motor is really brand new or just "repaired"...!?!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    April 1st? :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I don't believe Porsche will misrepresent what they do to repaired the car. I have no doubt they will replace the engine.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Apparently the GT3 engine is replaced in the factory by one of the new turbo-charged 4-cylinder engines incorporating PMS (Porsche Motorsport Sound) for a synthetic Metzger-engine sound through the PCM speakers. For owners with the Bose upgrade there will be PMS Plus incorporating multiple vehicles from the 356 up to the Panamera Hybrid for a versatile aural experience beyond belief.

    Due to popular demand you can optionally get a clutch pedal installed (in aluminium, carbon or mahogany) when your GT3 is in the factory. The clutch pedal is connected to the PDK paddles and when pressed it triggers the simultaneous pull on the left and right paddles to disengage the PDK clutch plates.

    Enjoy! 


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    igirl:

    April 1st? :)

    Smiley

    No, that's the info from my OPC this afternoon.

    Blueflame


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    igirl:

    Really?? If so, it will be impossible to know if the new motor is really brand new or just "repaired"...!?!

    All cars get new engines, no engine repairs. Don't worry.

    The "old" engines are rumored to get fixed and will be used as refurbished engines for later repairs (warranty, replacements, etc.) as soon after they determine that they are 100% OK and after they are completely refurbished, incl. the well known fix.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    The "old" engines are rumored to get fixed and will be used as refurbished engines for later repairs (warranty, replacements, etc.) as soon after they determine that they are 100% OK and after they are completely refurbished, incl. the well known fix.

    at least they will have plenty of spare engine/parts!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:

    Apparently the GT3 engine is replaced in the factory by one of the new turbo-charged 4-cylinder engines incorporating PMS (Porsche Motorsport Sound) for a synthetic Metzger-engine sound through the PCM speakers. For owners with the Bose upgrade there will be PMS Plus incorporating multiple vehicles from the 356 up to the Panamera Hybrid for a versatile aural experience beyond belief.

    Due to popular demand you can optionally get a clutch pedal installed (in aluminium, carbon or mahogany) when your GT3 is in the factory. The clutch pedal is connected to the PDK paddles and when pressed it triggers the simultaneous pull on the left and right paddles to disengage the PDK clutch plates.

    Enjoy! 

    very funny Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:

    Apparently the GT3 engine is replaced in the factory by one of the new turbo-charged 4-cylinder engines incorporating PMS (Porsche Motorsport Sound) for a synthetic Metzger-engine sound through the PCM speakers. For owners with the Bose upgrade there will be PMS Plus incorporating multiple vehicles from the 356 up to the Panamera Hybrid for a versatile aural experience beyond belief.

    Due to popular demand you can optionally get a clutch pedal installed (in aluminium, carbon or mahogany) when your GT3 is in the factory. The clutch pedal is connected to the PDK paddles and when pressed it triggers the simultaneous pull on the left and right paddles to disengage the PDK clutch plates.

    Enjoy! 

    SmileySmileySmiley This made me sh*t my pants.


    --

    - HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    991 GT3:
    bluelines:

    Apparently the GT3 engine is replaced in the factory by one of the new turbo-charged 4-cylinder engines incorporating PMS (Porsche Motorsport Sound) for a synthetic Metzger-engine sound through the PCM speakers. For owners with the Bose upgrade there will be PMS Plus incorporating multiple vehicles from the 356 up to the Panamera Hybrid for a versatile aural experience beyond belief.

    Due to popular demand you can optionally get a clutch pedal installed (in aluminium, carbon or mahogany) when your GT3 is in the factory. The clutch pedal is connected to the PDK paddles and when pressed it triggers the simultaneous pull on the left and right paddles to disengage the PDK clutch plates.

    Enjoy! 

    SmileySmileySmiley This made me sh*t my pants.

    Made me ship my motor - excellent


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    +1


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Just to change topics a little. I called PNA this morning to ask if Mr Tim Quinn was going to issuing any letter to the owners and to be owners of the GT3 as he stated in his March 17th letter i.e. "Within 3 weeks".
     
    The very nice person I spoke with said " We have no new updated information. We are hoping we will have new information soon but not sure if it will be this week or next week".
     
    You be the judge, will Porsche live up to a written document on when to get back to us?
     
    I have stated my point before, they will not and what information we get will likely be "we will get back to you when the Cow jumps over the Moon and Pig's Fly"
     

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    My importer is hearing from the dealer in Cyprus that porsche plans to cut build spots for existing gt3 orders, thus canceling some of our orders.

    can anyone confirm this?  Thanks


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Watt, Porsche is taking many 2014 build spots and pushing them back to 2015 with production in the fall. Most spring build  2014 buyers have received notice of the delay. This is because the replacement engines need to be built for 785 cars.


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 10/25/21 12:29 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    500841 1291
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 11/8/21 7:43 PM
    Leawood911
    181448 1154
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 12/6/21 9:27 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    72231 386
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 11/25/21 6:30 PM
    watt
    67436 686
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 11/19/21 6:44 AM
    bluelines
    53447 529
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    49239 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    13529 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/18/21 3:28 PM
    RCA
    589 0
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    475067 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    390386 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    386561 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    351961 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 10/8/21 11:41 AM
    xpto
    322154 2647
    Porsche 992 GT3 12/6/21 6:10 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    281821 3163
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    255169 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    169497 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    120289 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    104703 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/4/21 12:36 AM
    Leawood911
    96075 1245
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    83405 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    74569 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    74417 824
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/3/21 3:53 PM
    Topspeed
    54731 1399
    Others Bugatti Chiron 11/4/21 5:58 AM
    WhoopsyM
    44173 500
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 11/10/21 2:32 PM
    Topspeed
    41455 532
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    40047 615
    Porsche GT4RS 12/3/21 5:15 PM
    Rossi
    38725 713
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 12/7/21 12:17 AM
    WhoopsyM
    35567 1201
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31252 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28062 370
    250 items found, displaying 1 to 30.