Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Jim, I hope you had too many glasses of scotch when you wrote this, otherwise I would really doubt your sanity.

    I drove them all(OK, maybe not the 356 or some of the first 911) and I can tell you: the 997 Carrera S is one, if not THE, best 911 I ever drove. I didn't like the 996 too much compared to my former 993 but with the 996 Turbo, my opinion changed completely. I'd also recommend to drive a 996 GT2 MkII, GT3 MkII and of course the GT3RS.

    BTW: I'm 40.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    I will work on the Scotch.

    The 997S is great. Its performance is so good and its so competent, that it just begs to be even more direct in its feel.

    The cars digital throttle,dual mass flywheel,cushy motor mounts and power steering all feel a bit video game like to me.

    The doors dont close with any sound of craftsmanship either. You can tell the entire car was built to comply with EU recycling laws and that assembly craftsmanship
    ended with the 993.

    I say they can do better. For a start they can at least change the pedals back to being floor hinged and put the gas filler on the drivers side.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    How do EU recycling laws affect the craftsmanship of the car?

    Oh, and Jim, could Porsche put a GT3 motor in the base 911, with the same MSRP, and still make a profit?

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Modern Porsches don't suck IMO. They still feel very special compared to other road cars.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I say they can do better. For a start they can at least change the pedals back to being floor hinged and put the gas filler on the drivers side.



    The gas filler is on the drivers side on my Boxster - it's just that you choose to have LHD over there!\

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    You can tell the entire car was built to comply with EU recycling laws and that assembly craftsmanship ended with the 993.


    The "craftmanship" involved in building the older 911s was entirely used up in compensating during assembly for the out-of-tolerance parts made on worn out ancient tooling.

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:I say they can do better. For a start they can at least change the pedals back to being floor hinged ......



    The old 911 was developed at a time when ergonomics had not yet been invented, and the floor-hinged pedals were particularly an ergonomic disaster.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck


    Fritz, you need to go to pedal school!

    The floor hinged pedals were safer. They also cost more to do. Porsche still uses them on the Carrera GT. So far no
    review of that car has noted them as an "ergonomic disaster"

    Fit and finish was better on the pre Boxster and 996 bodies. The tooling was not "worn" out. The panels were hand fitted, welded, leaded and ground smooth by hand.

    If anything, the robots used today give more uniformity, but have a higher slop factor for alignment. The body parts are thinner. The safety areas inside the tub are reinforced with aluminum and boron steel and the suspension sub frames serve as part of the impact resistance design.

    No one ever complained of 911 build safety, but legislation has 'Volvoized' the car for good (safer yet) and for bad, what once weighed 2200lbs now weighs 3200lbs.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Jim,

    I just examined a GT3 RS at the dealer lately, the car is - save the interior - amazingly well made on the exterior. The CF rear wing or the air outlet grills in front of the front boot are so well-crafted, actually very surprising on a light-weight car.

    Check out the painting on the wheels, which is very well done.

    The floor-hinged pedals are dangerous in frontal collisions, I can only assume that the CGT's chassis is so extremely rigid that a movement of the pedals in case of an accident can be excluded!

    I understand your critisism and I do feel the same on certain aspects, but Porsche went the hard way on the 996 to finally earn some money again - the 997 is on its way to a more well-crafted interior again. I expect the Turbo and GT3, with their LeMans-derived engine, to be very reliable on the engine and drivetrain as well - the only downside I see on the std. models so far!

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Jim,

    I just examined a GT3 RS at the dealer lately, the car is - save the interior - amazingly well made on the exterior. The CF rear wing or the air outlet grills in front of the front boot are so well-crafted, actually very surprising on a light-weight car.

    Check out the painting on the wheels, which is very well done.

    The floor-hinged pedals are dangerous in frontal collisions, I can only assume that the CGT's chassis is so extremely rigid that a movement of the pedals in case of an accident can be excluded!

    I understand your critisism and I do feel the same on certain aspects, but Porsche went the hard way on the 996 to finally earn some money again - the 997 is on its way to a more well-crafted interior again. I expect the Turbo and GT3, with their LeMans-derived engine, to be very reliable on the engine and drivetrain as well - the only downside I see on the std. models so far!



    I agree that the GT3 RS is a beautifully detailed and finished car and that 997s have much improved interior materials. Compared to the 996 they are almost from another planet.

    Now let them replace or redesign the M96 motor to solve the oiling problems at high Gs so that the car can be totally
    exploited on a race track as with 911s before.

    I want the 997 to be the total package again and not a compromise.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Jim,

    I just examined a GT3 RS at the dealer lately, the car is - save the interior - amazingly well made on the exterior. The CF rear wing or the air outlet grills in front of the front boot are so well-crafted, actually very surprising on a light-weight car.

    Check out the painting on the wheels, which is very well done.

    The floor-hinged pedals are dangerous in frontal collisions, I can only assume that the CGT's chassis is so extremely rigid that a movement of the pedals in case of an accident can be excluded!

    I understand your critisism and I do feel the same on certain aspects, but Porsche went the hard way on the 996 to finally earn some money again - the 997 is on its way to a more well-crafted interior again. I expect the Turbo and GT3, with their LeMans-derived engine, to be very reliable on the engine and drivetrain as well - the only downside I see on the std. models so far!



    I agree that the GT3 RS is a beautifully detailed and finished car and that 997s have much improved interior materials. Compared to the 996 they are almost from another planet.

    Now let them replace or redesign the M96 motor to solve the oiling problems at high Gs so that the car can be totally
    exploited on a race track as with 911s before.

    I want the 997 to be the total package again and not a compromise.


    Well said, Jim. I wonder what the motors will look like for the 998? If they truly go to an 8cyl, what do you think of the odds of a dry sump Flat-8 for the non-GT models? Probably pretty slim. I hope it doesn't make the M96/97 look like the good old days in terms of quality

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Porsche, as other automobile manufacturers, has responded to increasing legislative and economic pressures using technologic advances to meet safety and environmental standards. Porsche, to its credit, has managed to maintain both its financial independence and the essential character of its automobiles despite these pressures. How does that song go, something lost and something gained......???

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    What will the 998 engine be? Lets hope it will be visible and not buried under plastic covers. Show the mill please!

    I doubt that Porsche will ever use investment cast block and heads again. Theres just too much chance for quality nightmares with such a complex design. Maybe they will outsource the block and heads to someone using Audi's patented UV laser machining technology.

    I dont think that Porsche will go to a flat 8cyl motor. They will probably count on direct injection and whatever intake, cam, timing and exhaust tricks they are developing.
    I cant imagine them not having a new motor without a better oil lubrication system than the M96.

    Their biggest problem is thermal efficiency. The 3.8 litre engine already has the siamesed cylinders so whatever they create new will probably have lower operating temperatures.

    Porsches biggest lead is in traction and a low ratio of hp loss from the engine to the wheels. Any marginal percentage improvement they can make in that area is a big advantage to
    drivers.

    If they chose to use the GT1 engine across the range for
    performance reasons, they could lower its cost substantially by milling its block and heads using Audi's UV laser machining process. Porsche in the US quotes approx 60K for a GT3 replacement engine. Usually Porsche engine markups ex factory are 150%. If you back from that number
    and deduct another 60% for the use of the labor saving audi system, the GT1 engine maybe makes business sense. Its a hope and a cure for the M96 roulette wheel motor they now use.

    Beyond those generalizations I cant guess!

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    What will the 998 engine be? Lets hope it will be visible and not buried under plastic covers. Show the mill please!

    I doubt that Porsche will ever use investment cast block and heads again. Theres just too much chance for quality nightmares with such a complex design. Maybe they will outsource the block and heads to someone using Audi's patented UV laser machining technology.

    I dont think that Porsche will go to a flat 8cyl motor. They will probably count on direct injection and whatever intake, cam, timing and exhaust tricks they are developing.
    I cant imagine them not having a new motor without a better oil lubrication system than the M96.

    Their biggest problem is thermal efficiency. The 3.8 litre engine already has the siamesed cylinders so whatever they create new will probably have lower operating temperatures.

    Porsches biggest lead is in traction and a low ratio of hp loss from the engine to the wheels. Any marginal percentage improvement they can make in that area is a big advantage to
    drivers.

    If they chose to use the GT1 engine across the range for
    performance reasons, they could lower its cost substantially by milling its block and heads using Audi's UV laser machining process. Porsche in the US quotes approx 60K for a GT3 replacement engine. Usually Porsche engine markups ex factory are 150%. If you back from that number
    and deduct another 60% for the use of the labor saving audi system, the GT1 engine maybe makes business sense. Its a hope and a cure for the M96 roulette wheel motor they now use.

    Beyond those generalizations I cant guess!



    Jim, those aren't just generalizations, they are pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

    Did you get that stuff from the same guy who sold you on "forged" cylinder heads?

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    DaveC said:
    How does that song go, something lost and something gained......???



    You mean: "What you lose on the swings, you gain on the roundabouts"?

    Count yourself lucky that they don't allow singing on rennteam.com!

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Fritz, theres no mumbo jumbo about it. Audi is milling engine blocks perfectly in 181 only seconds.

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2040916.001/audi/1.html

    Read the article, you might learn something.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    ...
    I want the 997 to be the total package again and not a compromise.



    If that's what it boils down for you I totally agree - hence my reference to the Gt3 and TT in terms of engine sophistication!

    The honing process you mentioned is similiar to the one used on Opel's diesel engines. As far as I know this works best on these because they still use cast iron for the engine block, opposed to most gasonline engines' alloy blocks!

    A flat-8 is a ridiculous though so far - let's see what we end up with. Rumours about this engine has been spread for years already!

    Greetings!

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Fritz, theres no mumbo jumbo about it. Audi is milling engine blocks perfectly in 181 only seconds.

    http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2040916.001/audi/1.html

    Read the article, you might learn something.



    Jím, I read the article, and what I learnt was that you had mis-read it - which was coincidentally just what I had expected.

    The article does not claim that Audi completely mills cylinder blocks in 181 seconds as you have understood. What it does say is that Audi has developed a process to laser-treat the bore surfaces of its cast iron diesel engine blocks after they have been conventionally machined and honed beforehand. Note the sentence: "When the UV laser pulses hit the surface of the cylinder bore, which has been pre-machined to a minimal roughness by honing .......".

    This additional process, which takes 184 s for a 3 liter 6 cylinder block, is meant to improve the surface of the bores to reduce friction and oil consumption and improve durability. There is no mention of production-cost reduction, improved machining precision in terms of tolerances, as I remember you implying in an earlier post.

    If you would like to give me a link to the web site promoting the use of "forged" water-cooled cylinder heads, I will happily check to see what you had misunderstood in that instance.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Read it again Fritz,,,,,,

    "In comparison: Under laboratory conditions at the start of the project the researchers took around three hours to machine a cylinder block with the laser. Audi has invested EUR 4.8 million in the 4.60 metre long, 7.60 metre wide and 3.50 metre high plant, which is completely enclosed by a steel chamber. It is operated by one employee per shift, who has undertaken training in laser technology in addition to his/her basic qualification as a skilled technician. There are altogether around 250 staff employed in Györ on production of the 3.0 TDI engines. "

    Now why were they talking about LASER machining engine blocks and UV Laser treatment of cylinder walls in that article???

    "The cycle time for a complete engine block including handling is just 184 seconds, and the exposure time for each cylinder bore is 20 seconds"

    Hola,.. got a clue now Fritz Amarosa?

    The article is about BOTH the Laser machining of engine blocks and UV Light treatment of cylinder walls. Thats why Fritz o stubborn one they stated that at first it took them THREE hours to laser machine a engine block!

    Cheers! You failed again, now go back and tell us how much you love investment castings.

    And yes dear Fritz, Porsche has made some engines from forgings, some from castings, some blocks even from magnesium. But now, NOW, they have stooped to Bill Ruger
    cheesy technology and build them from investment castings, wich is the cheapest, worst, junkiest way to make a motor.

    Wich is also why it is not raced anywhere and is also why Porsche mechanics snicker and laugh at customers behind their backs for buying a car with it! Go ask one!

    Next time ask me how I really feel!









    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Jim, you really need to improve your reading skills.

    "the grey cast iron engine block"
    "machining the SURFACE of cilinder bores"

    I don't think it's even possible to machine an engine block from a lump of steel using laser.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    I just read the article very briefly once yesterday and I have to agree with Fritz. As I referred to further above Opel uses a similiar technology - AFTER the regular milling process and ONLY on diesel engines due to their cast iron block!

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    I think Jim is right about the future of our highway system and the major government intervention. Sad but realistic.

    Re: Modern Porsches Suck

    Dude thats your own opinion - I could say something you like sucked but does that mean it sucked? Maybe yes, maybe not. Purely opinions.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    748150 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 8/11/21 2:00 PM
    throt
     
     
     
     
     
    451257 1287
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 9/21/21 11:01 AM
    Leawood911
    166514 1101
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 9/17/21 8:59 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    65478 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 9/22/21 1:03 AM
    watt
    54139 512
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    46497 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    42954 380
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    11998 29
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    465086 3586
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 6/25/21 2:56 PM
    the-missile
    384876 3506
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 8/12/21 4:57 PM
    Topspeed
    381320 3918
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    347301 3252
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    337113 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    317024 2646
    Porsche 992 GT3 9/17/21 4:41 PM
    lexs4
    262512 2975
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 7/20/21 3:10 PM
    Topspeed
    249882 1567
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    167435 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    143219 792
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    117956 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    101741 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/5/21 4:30 PM
    BjoernB
    92204 1221
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    82017 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    71349 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    71142 824
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    50575 596
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 9/14/21 1:11 PM
    BjoernB
    47169 1165
    Others Bugatti Chiron 7/22/21 6:55 PM
    Topspeed
    41905 480
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/24/21 6:30 PM
    Porker
    39705 531
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    38461 615
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    30398 394
    269 items found, displaying 1 to 30.