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    Whale tail

    Hello,

    I've always been very fond of the whale tail of the 993tt. Do you think that there will be a chance to get a spoiler of this shape for the 997 from any aftermarket part dealer?

    Thank you for your comments.

    Re: Whale tail

    Why don't you wait for the 997 Turbo?

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Why don't you wait for the 997 Turbo?





    PS. im sure some aftermarket tuner will make a whaletale for the 997 C2.

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    zacharie said:
    Hello,

    I've always been very fond of the whale tail of the 993tt. Do you think that there will be a chance to get a spoiler of this shape for the 997 from any aftermarket part dealer?

    Thank you for your comments.



    If I'm not mistaken, that spoiler looked the way it did because it covered the turbo/engine components, so there was a reason for it looking like that.

    Why put something on the car that has no reason to be there?

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Why put something on the car that has no reason to be there?



    well there could be many reasons, some people just like something different, others are trying to make their car something that it is not to attract more attention... the list goes on.

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Why put something on the car that has no reason to be there?



    well there could be many reasons, some people just like something different, others are trying to make their car something that it is not to attract more attention... the list goes on.



    Oh yes, I get it. I just realized I was very presumptuous thinking that when you get to own the best road car Porsche has to offer it would be near perfect and would need no useless/functionless owner modifications. Silly me.


    Re: Whale tail

    While it ALSO made room for an intercooler, it is quite functional aerodynamically. Look at a 997 retractable spoiler, it resembles the general shape of the whale tail when extended. Anything to disrupt that lift and drag inducing downward slope of the rear helps. The factory spoiler is the one that retracts for looks, not function.

    Re: Whale tail

    its quite ironic, porsche has a policy of form following function.

    the spoiler retracting is there to preserve the lines of the car when travling slow, and for no other reason.

    seems like they went back on their own rule a bit...

    of course theres also the issue of model differentiation...etc... long discussion


    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    the spoiler retracting is there to preserve the lines of the car when travling slow, and for no other reason.




    That is not necissarily true though. At lower speeds, a spoiler does not work effectively as a spoiler but has a lot of drag, thus influencing the performance in a negative way at low speeds (Effects will be hardly noticable I think, but it could be used as an arguement to retract the spoilers
    -Joost-

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    its quite ironic, porsche has a policy of form following function.
    the spoiler retracting is there to preserve the lines of the car when travling slow, and for no other reason.
    seems like they went back on their own rule a bit...



    If the spoiler has no effect at lower speeds, form follows function, therefore the spoiler is lowered. No effect, no function-no spoiler, no form

    Re: Whale tail

    That's an even better way to say what I meant... thanks Brunner!
    -Joost-

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    the spoiler retracting is there to preserve the lines of the car when travling slow, and for no other reason.




    That is not necissarily true though. At lower speeds, a spoiler does not work effectively as a spoiler but has a lot of drag, thus influencing the performance in a negative way at low speeds (Effects will be hardly noticable I think, but it could be used as an arguement to retract the spoilers
    -Joost-


    sorry, thas wrong
    not hardly noticiable effects at all cause at low speeds there is not kind of drag cause are not air flow
    at low speeds wing doesn't offer resistance like as high ones does, it doesn't work
    if there is not air flow enough to work(depends of the surface, high and angle), not drag either
    in order the speed increases the resistance and perpendicular angle strength will increase too
    look at gt3 or F1, none type of track cars have any system like this
    well, i wonder what down force the 997's tail has, not much sure
    apart this, i'm sure the principal issues of this are the air intake and cooling the motor hood

    greetings

    Re: Whale tail

    Anyway you look at it the WT thing was DARN UGLY. I thought I liked it since it was so novel lookig at the time. But now I gotta say it's just not very attractive looking.

    The car looks great as it comes from the factory. The retractible spoiler is a great idea. we nver use it legally in the USA anyway, why look at it all the time?

    OTOH, if you hav to have wings and fins you might as well put a few torpedo and afterburner accents on it too.

    Re: Whale tail

    Manu, I think you are right... I was having doubts myself when I wrote it That's why I was so happy with Brunner's better descryption
    -Joost-

    Re: Whale tail

    kornflake,
    Thanks for the link; the spoiler this company provides is very close to what I'm looking for. I come to the conclusion that getting the exact shape of an 993 TT whale tail cannot be made due to the different, overall back shape of the 997.
    The thorough exchange of comments following this post makes me reconsider the retractable spoiler of the 997 as a nice attribute after all. I am not a rally driver nor a tunner.
    I enjoy the idea of the wing erected passed 120 km/h and going down at 60. Too bad I can't see it with my own eyes. It must be a wonder looking at it.

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    MMD said:We nver use it legally in the USA anyway, why look at it all the time?
    OTOH, if you hav to have wings and fins you might as well put a few torpedo and afterburner accents on it too.


    Yeah, well, there's a whole planet outside US, and people there sure make use of the effects provided by the wings and fins.
    What about the US tracks?:)

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    I thought I liked it since it was so novel lookig at the time. But now I gotta say it's just not very attractive looking.

    I'm right there with you. I thought the whale tail was the coolest thing in the 70's and early 80's, which was of course, when I was also dealing with acne and riding a bicycle for transportation. Nowadays, it's just a distraction from what otherwise is a beautiful and classic form. One of the reasons I've not been able to warm up to the TT's, are the tails and the big intake holes in the rear 1/4 flares. You take a lovely and clean design, and hack it all up, of course for function, but....

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:We nver use it legally in the USA anyway, why look at it all the time?
    OTOH, if you hav to have wings and fins you might as well put a few torpedo and afterburner accents on it too.


    Yeah, well, there's a whole planet outside US, and people there sure make use of the effects provided by the wings and fins.
    What about the US tracks?:)



    I agree! No problem for guys who track the car or those who drive on the never-in-the-US Autobahn. The things work at those speeds. Who cares what it looks like when you're trying to "improve your game" so to speak.

    Re: Whale tail

    The point is that at low speeds the wing does nothing, so it doesn't hurt to lower it, but at the same time, there is no point to lower it. So the motors and electronics that work to lower it are all for show, they have no function besides aethetics. And on the 911 shape, the wing REDUCES drag. The fast moving air coming down from the roof along those classic 911 lines produces BOTH lift and parasitic drag. So the wing does no wrong, it both decreases lift and decreases drag. I just wish they would come out with a tasteful spoiler and ditch the retractable silliness.

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    The point is that at low speeds the wing does nothing, so it doesn't hurt to lower it, but at the same time, there is no point to lower it. So the motors and electronics that work to lower it are all for show, they have no function besides aethetics. And on the 911 shape, the wing REDUCES drag. The fast moving air coming down from the roof along those classic 911 lines produces BOTH lift and parasitic drag. So the wing does no wrong, it both decreases lift and decreases drag. I just wish they would come out with a tasteful spoiler and ditch the retractable silliness.


    any spoiler always increases drag, but otherwise decreases lift and the flow what come from the roof will find a grate and faster exit if the spoiler is down, cause the rear turbulences will decrease and this is even more important in terms of aerodynamics than getting into air and in this items the 911 has the best possible silhouette

    greets

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    manu said:
    any spoiler always increases drag, but otherwise decreases lift and the flow what come from the roof will find a grate and faster exit if the spoiler is down, cause the rear turbulences will decrease and this is even more important in terms of aerodynamics than getting into air and in this items the 911 has the best possible silhouette

    greets



    I'm sorry but no. If the slope is too much, it creates more drag. Did you ever notice those little lips they put on the back of sedans? I've read a few articles that discuss how those small lips actually have important effects that include reduction of lift and drag. It turns out that the soft edge of the usual audi is not the way to go. The same thing is true with the 911. The following quote is made by fellow by the name of Bill Verburg.

    "there are 3 different aero aids that are often confused w/ each other.

    spoiler - decreases lift and increases drag, only has flow on 1 side
    wing - decreases lift and increases drag, has flow on 2 sides
    appendage - decrease lift, does not increase drag, and can reduce drag

    The aero aids on the early 911, like the ducktail, are more properly called appendages.

    Another good source of aero info besides Frere is Dr. Robert White's article in the Nov '77 issue of Pano. He is an engineer that worked at Weissach, and was often a presenter at various PCA tech sessions. A very interesting guy.

    this is one of the graphs he presented, it was from the original research at Weissach where it was discovered by accident that as the lid is raised both lift and drag are reduced."

    So they've known since the 70s that the slope of the 911 is not the best for drag. As one more example, take the Toyota Prius of all things. It is one of the most aerodynamic cars out there and only has a very slight slope(much less than a 911) to the roof leading to an abrupt drop off. The abrupt drop off actually reduces drag although in a counterintuitive way.

    Re: Whale tail

    prius

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    The abrupt drop off actually reduces drag although in a counterintuitive way.



    Discovered by Wunibald Kamm, a German aerodynamics engineer.



    "In late summer of 1938, BMW tested a prototype of the so-called 'Kamm'-Coupe based on their "328 chassis". It had a drag coefficient of only 0.25 compared to the great 1940 Mille Miglia winning BMW 328 Touring Coupe with drag coefficient 0.35. "

    The Origin of the Kammback Design (click here).

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    I just wish they would come out with a tasteful spoiler and ditch the retractable silliness.

    Silly is in the eye of the beholder (I find spoilers to be silly, and welcome any system or manner that they can be eliminated or retracted), and regardless of who's argument is the most valid, the words "tasteful" and "spoiler" are so often mutually exclusive within the context of the 911's bodystyle. The weight and complexity of the retractable system is negligable, not even worthy of discussion, and it allows the car to look attractive and classy at lower speeds. It's a win-win in my opinion, you get the job done without permanently "Countach-ing" the rear of the car. There's a point where racing functionality oversteps its bounds on a road car. After all, who would want to drive a Chaparral-inspired design???

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    After all, who would want to drive a Chaparral-inspired design???



    Hey, ... that car (2J) really sucks




    Re: Whale tail

    We see numerous aftermarket spoilers or wings with sometimes strange shape available for Carreras and very often, the dealers claim that they are meant to improve performance of the car. So can we really believe them ? What do they mean by improving performance: is that for Cd or CLf, CRf?
    If I am not wrong there's a correlation betweenn the choice of wing and the fromt bumper shape [roughly]. So what's the point of buying only an aftermarket spoiler without a new front?

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    zacharie said:
    If I am not wrong there's a correlation betweenn the choice of wing and the fromt bumper shape [roughly]. So what's the point of buying only an aftermarket spoiler without a new front?



    You are not wrong, Porsche will not sell you the rear wing of the Carrera's GT3 aerokit (Aerokit Cup) alone, nor the bumper alone, etc. for a reason. You have to buy the whole aerokit package becuase its designed to work together. The complete aerokit as a whole increases downforce and reduces lift at speed but installing only one of the aerokit's parts such as the rear wing will do more harm than good to the car's stability and aerodinamics at speed. Its purely aesthetical in that case, which is OK by me, if the owner likes it thats fine with me, its his car, but its just for looks. And its true, to me the carrera looks much better with a rear wing, but personally I would not sacrifice stability and grip at high highway speeds just for the look of the rear wing personally. And believe me, at high speeds, the effect is noticeable. But then again some drivers don't or can't take their 911 to high speeds so it wouldn't do much harn in those cases either.

    Re: Whale tail

    well i agree about spoilers, wings, and rear lips if dont't exposed to air and in order to canalize air flow, always depend of aerodynamic caracteristcs design of each car
    i think this is used for canalize the floor flow and as you say decreases lift (remember that all down force hold back the car, but yes, cause it is not exposed, there is no drag), and about the turbulences what i was refering before may be has converge effects on top flow and decreases the rear lift, it's possible.....
    but i still think that the 911's drop off is better for aerodynamics, well as you say decreases drag but not lift, well this is logical, not interesting for automotive issue but certainly aerodynamic(think about the best aerodynamic form: a drop of water); sure lips and wings help it, with their against, but in joint are looked for a good and measure job


    it's an interesting and complex item that depends of a lot of factors


    greets

    Re: Whale tail

    Quote:
    manu said:

    but i still think that the 911's drop off is better for aerodynamics, well as you say decreases drag but not lift,



    I think we still have some confusion. The abrupt drop off of the whale tail has less lift and less drag than the slope of the 911's rear. The slope of the 911's rear is great enough that it increases drag and lift. The graph I included shows a decrease in drag and lift as the rear decklid is raised. I was told that the raindrop analogy if often applied incorrectly. I haven't taken any classes in fluid dynamics and so can only refer to people who know more than I do, but what I have stated so far is fact (not including any guesses as to why it's true, just the conclusions). My current guess is that as the speeds increase you need a longer and longer tail to the raindrop and it turns out that in order keep the car at a reasonable length it's better to cut off the end of the tail (so you have a flight slope to the roof leading to a drop) than to make the slope of the tail greater so that it comes to a point sooner (having a greater slope like the 911).

     
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