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    Time for ECU Tuning

    Very nice thread on GIAC ECU tuning:

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/142660-benefits-giac-flashloader-system.html

    I believe GIAC is one of the most prominent/best selling ECU tuning shops in the US. I think it's nice that they are answering questions in public and make themselves available to scrutiny & challenge. The info posted is very interesting, for example the 2 different ways programming is done. No association, so please don't shoot the messenger. If you have any question feel free to post; there, not here.

    GIAC is the company that "eclou" uses for tuning his Turbo and took it to ~ 190 mph at the Texas mile.


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Can,

    I've been following that particular thread and and you really have been doing your homework on this topic. As for me, I still have no plans to upgrade my ECU mainly because of warranty concerns. Nobody has actually proven that they've been able to "fool" PCNA/Porsche dealerships that they still have the stock ECU using the flashloader system to "switch" back to the stock ECU. To me, it's simply not worth the cost because of that.

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I heard APR can do it as you can swtich it back to stock for servicing. Looks very smart to me.

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    those that have done this basically seem to have the ballsy desire to do this without regard to warranty/trickery issues...based on the info here some of these rockets have accumulated some relatively high miles in the process, great testimony to the g1 engine design....keep up the great work ....

    big IF i was going down this path id go giac based on the info presented here

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I know, I am just "kicking tires." Warranty is the biggest issue and I agree, I don't think you could fool the factory if they decide to look.

    Let's see how long I could resist. This could create an unusual effect of me wishing for the warranty period to end!


    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Can,

    I've been following that particular thread and and you really have been doing your homework on this topic. As for me, I still have no plans to upgrade my ECU mainly because of warranty concerns. Nobody has actually proven that they've been able to "fool" PCNA/Porsche dealerships that they still have the stock ECU using the flashloader system to "switch" back to the stock ECU. To me, it's simply not worth the cost because of that.


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    once you do it, you will kick yourself for having waited so long. Just ask TT Surgeon

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    I know, I am just "kicking tires." Warranty is the biggest issue and I agree, I don't think you could fool the factory if they decide to look.

    Let's see how long I could resist. This could create an unusual effect of me wishing for the warranty period to end!


    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Can,

    I've been following that particular thread and and you really have been doing your homework on this topic. As for me, I still have no plans to upgrade my ECU mainly because of warranty concerns. Nobody has actually proven that they've been able to "fool" PCNA/Porsche dealerships that they still have the stock ECU using the flashloader system to "switch" back to the stock ECU. To me, it's simply not worth the cost because of that.





    Same boat as you 2.

    My thinking is to wait. Wait till I'm closer to the end of the warranty. Throwing away a full term warranty wouldnt make me feel very good but if it's 3/4's of the way done or maybe even at least halfway over??? Besides it's the ultimate difference to look forward to & the longer you wait, the more you get used to the car hence the bigger the difference in performance will probably be felt.

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    I know, I am just "kicking tires." Warranty is the biggest issue and I agree, I don't think you could fool the factory if they decide to look.

    Let's see how long I could resist. This could create an unusual effect of me wishing for the warranty period to end!


    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Can,

    I've been following that particular thread and and you really have been doing your homework on this topic. As for me, I still have no plans to upgrade my ECU mainly because of warranty concerns. Nobody has actually proven that they've been able to "fool" PCNA/Porsche dealerships that they still have the stock ECU using the flashloader system to "switch" back to the stock ECU. To me, it's simply not worth the cost because of that.





    Same boat as you 2.

    My thinking is to wait. Wait till I'm closer to the end of the warranty. Throwing away a full term warranty wouldnt make me feel very good but if it's 3/4's of the way done or maybe even at least halfway over??? Besides it's the ultimate difference to look forward to & the longer you wait, the more you get used to the car hence the bigger the difference in performance will probably be felt.


    I noticed a descernible difference with the exhaust plenum combination, and although tempted I am still waiting to do the ECU. I hope the wait will be rewarded. For those that know, am I better off with a cargraphic(RS) tune in combintion with a CG exhaust? Or will any of the reputable tuners like Ruf, etc suffice. I've one year to go and then it's damn the torpedoes.

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Yes, it's night and day when done right. I love mine, but I'm at 28k miles, a lot closer to the warranty end than a lot of guys. I figure anything that was going to happen would have by 25k miles of daily driving in all weather(sun, snow, floods) in/out of the city, and ample track time. Nothing happened, so I flashed it. I can see the hesitation if you only have a few miles on your car, hard to justify toasting the warranty for 50hp on a brand new car with very few miles.
    I have no illusions or regrets, would do it again.

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I think I have finally succumbed to the urge. The final leg of the triad, a path well traveled by Turbo owners: first suspension, then exhaust, and lastly, ECU tune.

    Warranty issue remains a big concern, and I am not sure I would need more than 500 hp in my daily driver, but so many friends have told me once I upgrade the ECU, I will be wondering why I have waited so long. I am therefore taking the easy way out: Why not? Smiley

    The 2 big guns in the US are GIAC http://www.giacusa.com/about.php and EVOMSit http://www.evomsit.com/. Frankly I am torn betweent these 2 guys: both are well known in Porsche community in the US, both run by competent and talented engineers. Both have had some complaints with customer service issues in the past (I am beginning to think this is the nature of the beast for this particular business of ECU tune.), but the bottom line is currently they have outstanding reputation and they've been around a long time.
    One seemingly not so important capability tilts me towards GIAC: The system allows me to change back to stock behavior with a device called the flashloader. In other words, I could move back and forth any time I want: stock versus ECU tuned.  This means comparison heaven! And since I have this strange need to compare (like my adventures with exhaust and suspension tuning -- comparisons are critical and best way to learn for me), the choice for GIAC is made a tad easier. It also allows an exit if for whatever reason I find the higher power not desirable in certain situations, like heavy traffic and on long distance cruising. In addition my son might be interested in the car one of these days.

    One more thing: the clutch. There have been scattered reports of the necessity of changing the clutch once the ECU is upgraded, even at the first level of upgrading with rather moderate power gain, depending on your "driving style" I've been told LOL. I guess the good thing is this means the power upgrade is there and is considerable. The bad thing is that I really really really don't want to have to change the freaking clutch. So I am in a strange position of wanting more power, but not too much power. Smiley

    It just so happens that GIAC is local to me, in Southern California. So I am working on something; perhaps the ECU tune will be done with pre and post dyno. If so, it might be GIAC's first dyno runs with a Cargraphic exhaust on a 997 Turbo. Should be fun.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    This thread needs a picture. Smiley

    08AE9761-2 german ersetzen yellow 2.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Can, very glad you are finally considering this you will not be disappointed. The same cannot be said about the clutch because once at stage 2, the stock clutch is at the limit especially in the colder months and when the car is not warmed up.

    My clutch did slip when I was stage 2 but I babied it until further mods were done when it couldn't keep up anymore. This issue is easily remedied with a Sachs 2 heavy duty clutch.

    Looking forward to your before and after dynos.


    --
     

    2007 997 TT Protomotive

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    RE: ECU - Eventually I'm going to be in the same boat with trying to decide. Please Keep us updated Cann.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Just do it!


    --

    Doug

    Houston, Texas USA 

    997TT


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Hey Cannga

    I would suggest you go with the ECU flash (you already have an exhaust with reduced back-pressure so that should help) and then see if you get clutch slippage before you commit to a Sachs II clutch kit.

    Different tuners will give you different type of mappings.  The ethos of RS-Tuning ECU flashes for example seems to be more about making power delivery smoother than just applying immediate brute force, so I think it's more gentle on my stock clutch and as such I have seen no slippage.  I also don't hammer the throttle to the floor when it is colder weather - as the grip on the tyres tends to be limited in these conditions anyway.  So my stock clutch seems fine.  Other tuners may not take this path which is why I suggest the 'suck it and see' approach.

    After the remap you should see 1.0 bar normal mode and 1.2 bar sport mode, every single time.  Something I never achived in my first 2500 miles with my stock mapping. 

    Everyone is right though when they say you will really kick yourself for waiting after you have experienced the difference!  It's at least 3 times more profound a change than the upgraded Bilstein mods are!!


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Dear rennteam friends, you are ONE.. BAAAAAAAD... influence.  Thanks a lot for the encouragement and the effort to separate me and my hard earned $. During a recession no less. LOL.

    Anthony, the ride in your Protomotive tuned Turbo remains one of of the most impressive ever -- it sure plays a part in my decision. Was that before or after you added the larger turbo?

    Gregg, the updates will sure be coming. I am still in the prelim. phase w/ GIAC. A lot of people are happy with EVOMS, but GIAC has been around a long time and is used by some Porsche dealers; it's a difficult coin toss!
    I keep thinking my car is fast enough, everyone keeps saying a Turbo engine is meant to be modded since it's so easy to do so and the benefits considerable. Essentially, peer pressure has gotten the best of me.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    That was with the modded VTGs but with the stock headers and intercoolers which are... no longer stockSmiley.

    The ecu flash will put you somewhere between a stock car and what you experienced in mine. Good luck.


    --

    2007 997 TT Protomotive

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Yes a remap is one of the best mods you can do on a turbo charged engine, porsches are already fast cars so can things get any better oh yes .

    Do it quick, do it now, do it quick ,do it now Smiley


    --

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Trust me.. as i trusted you with the Bilstein suspension... :) 

    i used to have Rstuning Giac etc..

    Protomotive is the way to go... but you cant see the light with just Ecu remap. you have to mod the vtg turbos as well... :) Different car... :) 

     

     


    --
    F430 Spider. 997 Turbo Tip with modified Vtgs...

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I will probably do the upgraded turbos when the stock ones start ceasing up (as per the 'design flaw' suggested on this board)!


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Nick_Athens:

    Trust me.. as i trusted you with the Bilstein suspension... :) 

    i used to have Rstuning Giac etc..

    Protomotive is the way to go... but you cant see the light with just Ecu remap. you have to mod the vtg turbos as well... :) Different car... :) 

     

     


    Nick, thanks for the suggestion. Re. modding the VTG, sigh -- I know it's a slippery slope I am entering. 

    This Turbo = the gift that keeps taking. But, somehow it makes me so happy. Smiley


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Cannga,

    once you flash the car you are going to kick yourself for waiting so long. I promise. The main advantage for the GIAC is the reversibility of the flash, and NO SOLDERING of your ECU.


    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Caanga swap ur tt turbos with GT2 turbos and mod them. Also while you are at it change the intake to the GT2 intake (pretty cheap part). Then some intercoolers. Then do the ecu, and YOU'LL NOT leave the seat of the car for a few weeks! Your wife will finally confiscate the keys and that will be the end of it. Lol!

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    eclou:

    Cannga,

    once you flash the car you are going to kick yourself for waiting so long. I promise. The main advantage for the GIAC is the reversibility of the flash, and NO SOLDERING of your ECU.

    eclou, long time no see. Thanks for the interesting info. I assume this means EVOMS solders a component to your ECU? I thought the mod was all in the software.

    GT:
    ..Then some intercoolers. Then do the ecu, and YOU'LL NOT leave the seat of the car for a few weeks! Your wife will finally confiscate the keys and that will be the end of it. Lol!

    I am more afraid of an alternative scenario: she gives me the key and says "good riddance"! Smiley
    Turbo owner's wife to turbo owner, upon learning of plan for an after-market exhaust:
    "So you're going to change a perfectly working muffler, to another muffler, that muffles less?!" Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    cannga:


    Turbo owner's wife to turbo owner, upon learning of plan for an after-market exhaust:
    "So you're going to change a perfectly working muffler, to another muffler, that muffles less?!" Smiley


    HAHAHAHAHAHSmiley

    and the new one is not a muffler,is a "Smuffler" Smiley


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I know the issue of power and dyno is going to come up, so below is the words of wisdom from AWE regarding how misleading a dyno could be. My understanding then is a dyno could be manipulated, including engine dyno. More valid confirmation could be done one of two ways:
    1. Do 2 dyno runs, one pre and one post  modificatiion, and look only for the delta -- the change between the 2 curves.
    2. It's ideal to also have Vbox data http://www.vboxusa.com/ , under same conditions. This is why Alex's Performance Table is so cool; obviously not same conditiion, but this is not a perfect world. http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/433719/Performance_Table/page1.html

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-turbo-forum/486470-randy-probst-drives-aprs-997-turbo-2.html

    Any load type dyno, whether Mustang, Maha, Dyno-Dynamics, or Dynapak, can be calibrated to show whatever you want them to show. The shape of the curve is linked to the load which is adjustable on all these dynos. The scale is linked to the software correction factors, which is adjustable on almost all these dynos. Therefore, there is not one "right" dyno as they are all at the mercy of their software parameter set-up.

    HOWEVER, as long as the software parameters that are used for the baseline are ALSO used for the modification test, the results are valid, REGARDLESS OF SHAPE OR SCALE. Sorry for shouting, but this is an essential concept to understand. The "delta" or difference between the curves is all that matters as long as the load being supplied to the car is not unrealistic.

    For example, we could have loaded up the 997 GT2 lower in the curve to produce more boost in that area which in turn would make the low end look more powerful. HOWEVER, such a load caused clutch slippage, which immediately told us we were loading the vehicle in an unrealistic manner. On an engine dyno, there is no clutch to worry about. But there is a clutch to worry about on the street and track, which is where the power is being used in the real world. Thus, clutch spec is an important factor to consider when looking at chassis dyno results.

    The only major dyno that does not have variable load control is the Dynojet. Instead, they rely on a rather unconventional mathematical calculation of power as a function of how fast their known roller mass can be accelerated to a given speed. Without a variable load control, realistic adjustment to the vehicle is not possible, resulting in rather "isolated from reality" results, in my opinion and others.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Yes, an engine dyno is just as susceptible. Engine dynos rely on software to convert raw sensor signals into mapped curves, and settings in that software can be changed just like with the software used on a chassis dyno.

    So, unless all these settings are somehow used universally by all dyno operators, or if tuner dynos were subject to governing body regulation, not even the results from an engine dyno can be taken absolutely.

    I am glad to see that this information is slowly seeping into the forum readers. We've been preaching this for years.

    Bear in mind that there are a lot of variables that need to be controlled for Vbox runs, too, in order to make them universally comparable, like ambient temp, road surface/grade, headwind/tailwind, etc., but at least the TOOL being used for data capture is a "sealed box" for all intents and purposes.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Super Darius:
    cannga:


    Turbo owner's wife to turbo owner, upon learning of plan for an after-market exhaust:
    "So you're going to change a perfectly working muffler, to another muffler, that muffles less?!" Smiley


    HAHAHAHAHAHSmiley

    and the new one is not a muffler,is a "Smuffler" Smiley


    Yeah and she also knows exactly when I come home. All the glasses in the house start vibrating. No more secret late night parties.
    People at work say they get a gentle massage from the vibrating air whenever I enter the parking garage. It's getting ridiculous. Smiley


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Cann,

    Have you looked at the possibility of going w/ the Cargraphic ECU as well? 

    You have their exhaust already right?

    From what I'm hearing it sounds like I would go either the GIAC or Cargraphic route for their ECU, what's your take?

    tia~


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    STRADALE:

    Cann,

    Have you looked at the possibility of going w/ the Cargraphic ECU as well? 

    You have their exhaust already right?

    From what I'm hearing it sounds like I would go either the GIAC or Cargraphic route for their ECU, what's your take?

    tia~

    The Cargraphic ECU tune is of great reputation and I believe the name behind the scene is RS Tuning, which of course means VERY serious brain power and experience. However, for whatever reason, I've not seen it mentioned much by US users. I don't know if it's the cost or what, but curiously enough, when I visit RSS / Stuttgart Performance web site, which is US Distributor of Cargraphic Exhaust in the US, I don't even see the Cargraphic ECU Tune mentioned. (Anyone corrects me if I'm wrong with anything above.)

    In the US, currently the 2 big guns are EVOMSit and GIAC. GIAC has been in existence longer & is used by some Porsche dealers. EVOMSit came on later but developed a quick reputation and has many happy users as well.

    Clearly both the EVOMSit and GIAC mods work, and work well. If I read between the lines correctly (no guarantee) the EVOMSit might have a bigger low end torque boost but trails off at higher RPM. The GIAC might have more torque higher up. All of this is hearsay & there has not been a head to head comparison with either dyno's or test drives.

    The "strange" thing about my search is that I do NOT want too much power, as this is a sure road to replacing the clutch (yikes!). Replacing clutch wouldn't be a big deal except it seems like the Sachs unit doesn't quite feel like stock & is not as easy to use as stock (again anyone feels free to correct).

    The second thing is it's critical to me that there must be some way of returning to stock power level easily. This would allow men to compare the 2 modes, and know the strengths and weaknesses of the mod so I could return it if it's not something I like (30 day or so refund period for both US companies). Plus I have teenage son, etc. So basically this leaves me with GIAC as the only choice for now.

    Check out this poll -- result not verified but interesting nevertheless: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/168988-ecu-poll-users-reports.html .


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


     
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