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    Abandoned in Dubai

    This is sad! Smiley5enzo_20110829_1.jpg


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    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Why not sell it in financial hardship? This is very sad. I drool over the chance the detail this though.


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    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    why are they not auction it off ?


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    I realized that these are perhaps leases and payments were not made...


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    this car has been in many discussians at fchat. a good friend of mine pulled some strings to buy the car.

    it has been impounded by customs as the owner had not paid and now some family member is apparently negotiating with customs to clear it. however, this has been ongoing for 2-3 years and nothing happened.

    sorry, that was concerning a car in beirut. just saw the photo is in dubai. so it has to be a different story.

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    When Dubai went through the financial crisis, many ex-pats were abandoning their leased vehicles at the airport as they were leaving the country. It was cheaper to dump them since they had lost their jobs and didn't have the right to sell. Local Emiratis buy new cars. Ex-pats buy the used cars and demand amongst ex-pats dried up back then.


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    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    So maybe this would be a good chance to make a good deal for professional buyers/sellers? How difficult would it be to export these cars to Europe? Just saying...
    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    The cars are re-possessed by the lease company and then I guess they are either on-sold (either by auction or through the used car dealers) or used for spare parts.

    One problem is the EU Certificate of Conformity so that you can register the car in the EU. Cars sold to the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council countries like Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman etc) do not need to meet the same EU emissions requirements and so you may find that you cannot obtain an EU Certificate of Conformity for it from the manufacturer. The catalytic converter may or may not be fitted or may be a different spec.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Yep, but I sure thing there would be  A LOT of paperwork re ownership, clearing the fees from parking, and then exportation...

    I am actually wondering why Ferrari Co. themselves have not perhaps tried to re-possess this beauty! Perhaps a lease with privately negociated outside Ferraris hands..


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Dubai should just donate it to Rennteam.com


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Photo is rather surreal, the extraordinary reduced to the utterly common, yet it's true nature managing to prevail nonetheless.
    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    easy_rider911:

    When Dubai went through the financial crisis, many ex-pats were abandoning their leased vehicles at the airport as they were leaving the country. It was cheaper to dump them since they had lost their jobs and didn't have the right to sell. Local Emiratis buy new cars. Ex-pats buy the used cars and demand amongst ex-pats dried up back then.

    ^^^This.

    I had a friend who was working as a contractor in Dubai during the boom. He had luxury everything thinking the money was going to flow forever. When the economy went bust and his contract wasn't renewed, he became deathly afraid of debtors prison when things there went from sugar to shit overnight.

    He left his Range Rover at the airport with the keys under the footwell and told them where to find it when he arrived back in America.

    From 2009-2010, it wasn't uncommon to go to Dubai and see the airport parking filled with luxury cars dusted in sand and silt like some sort of late-model grave yard.

     


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Exactly right. There were thousands of cases like this Heist.

    And you stated the thing I forgot to mention: in Dubai, if you can't repay your debts, it is a criminal offence. Unbelievable.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    easy_rider911:

    Exactly right. There were thousands of cases like this Heist.

    And you stated the thing I forgot to mention: in Dubai, if you can't repay your debts, it is a criminal offence. Unbelievable.


    Can we send our politicians to Dubai?


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    intouch1:

    this car has been in many discussians at fchat. a good friend of mine pulled some strings to buy the car.

    it has been impounded by customs as the owner had not paid and now some family member is apparently negotiating with customs to clear it. however, this has been ongoing for 2-3 years and nothing happened.

    sorry, that was concerning a car in beirut. just saw the photo is in dubai. so it has to be a different story.

     


     

    OMG, The Beirut car is still not resolved yet!! I remember hearing about it like ages ago.
     


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    UAE debt laws

    http://www.cashy.me/en/articles/post/2011/03/31/understanding-uae-debt-laws/301/?cct=67&ccid=301

    Some old articles about the Dubai boom and bust

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8382935.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8381363.stm


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    SoCal Alan:
    easy_rider911:

    Exactly right. There were thousands of cases like this Heist.

    And you stated the thing I forgot to mention: in Dubai, if you can't repay your debts, it is a criminal offence. Unbelievable.


    Can we send our politicians to Dubai?

    You beat me to it.

     


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    JoeRockhead:
    SoCal Alan:
    easy_rider911:

    Exactly right. There were thousands of cases like this Heist.

    And you stated the thing I forgot to mention: in Dubai, if you can't repay your debts, it is a criminal offence. Unbelievable.


    Can we send our politicians to Dubai?

    You beat me to it.

     


    I'm sure Obama can talk his way out of it.. or at least thinks he can Smiley
     


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    What a concept - not paying for something is like STEALING it.  The theft is just not instant but the same result for the seller/victim.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  It would be a nice way to remind people not to buy crap they don't need.

    Yes - politicians who don't vote for a balanced budget should be the first to go.

    Cheers,

     


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Not paying one's debts is a civil liability between debtor and creditor. IMO it should not become a criminal liability where the State punishes the debtor with incarceration.

    Failing to meet a monthly payment (again, a civil liability) is certainly not the same as stealing (a criminal offence).

    --

    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    When a lender loans money to a borrower, the money becomes the property of the borrower. The borrower takes on a contractual obligation to repay the amount borrowed. The loan may or may not be secured by an asset (such as a house etc).

    Stealing involves appropriating property belonging to someone else with the intention of depriving them permanently of it.

    The key difference is that borrowed money belongs to the borrower once it has been loaned whereas stolen property never ceases to belong to the owner.

    So equating non-payment of debts as being like stealing is just incorrect.

    That's why the non-repayment of debts constituting a criminal offence in the UAE is just repugnant no matter what form of jurisprudence one subscribes to. 


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    IMO the only situation where a criminal liability arises is if the loan was obtained from the lender by deception (e.g. fraud). 


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    ha:

    This is sad! Smiley5enzo_20110829_1.jpg

     I think of this:

    Smiley  Smiley


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    easy_rider911:

    IMO the only situation where a criminal liability arises is if the loan was obtained from the lender by deception (e.g. fraud). 


    I think that still qualifies politicians...


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    easy_rider911:

    Not paying one's debts is a civil liability between debtor and creditor. IMO it should not become a criminal liability where the State punishes the debtor with incarceration.

    Failing to meet a monthly payment (again, a civil liability) is certainly not the same as stealing (a criminal offence).

    I certainly understand your point of taking a look at it from a contractual point of view. However, you could argue that there is reason for the state to prosecute (if it deems that necessary) as it serves a "higher" goal of "protecting society" Smiley

    Thinking out of the box, if I steal your car, you track me down, I give you back the car and propose to pay you a hefty damage fee (which you very happily accept so you decide not to press charges), I could still be prosecuted. In our system this makes sense, because we want to discourage people of stealing (as not everyone gets caught) and a proper functioning of society would not be possible if everyone is stealing... Same could be said about people taking on more debt than they can pay back just to have the latest cell phone...

    I suppose state only prosecutes after the bank has tried to close out the loan etc? Coming from Belgium, we have a system where you can incur all debt you want (until the banks are not willing to give you a loan anymore), then you to go into collective debt settlement (whereby a lawyer makes up the budget, only giving you 200 EUR a month or so to survive after rent for a house), your assets are sold off (except for necessary things), the rest is given to creditors for a few years and then you are of the hook. The rest of outstanding debt at that moment is deemed to be non-existent, so you can take up your life again. Being on such a limited budget is not easy, but for me it still gives the wrong signal.

    Just saying that there are arguments to be made in favour of punishing not paying back debt...


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Porsche_lover:
    easy_rider911:

    Not paying one's debts is a civil liability between debtor and creditor. IMO it should not become a criminal liability where the State punishes the debtor with incarceration.

    Failing to meet a monthly payment (again, a civil liability) is certainly not the same as stealing (a criminal offence).

    I certainly understand your point of taking a look at it from a contractual point of view. However, you could argue that there is reason for the state to prosecute (if it deems that necessary) as it serves a "higher" goal of "protecting society" Smiley

    Thinking out of the box, if I steal your car, you track me down, I give you back the car and propose to pay you a hefty damage fee (which you very happily accept so you decide not to press charges), I could still be prosecuted. In our system this makes sense, because we want to discourage people of stealing (as not everyone gets caught) and a proper functioning of society would not be possible if everyone is stealing... Same could be said about people taking on more debt than they can pay back just to have the latest cell phone...

    I suppose state only prosecutes after the bank has tried to close out the loan etc? Coming from Belgium, we have a system where you can incur all debt you want (until the banks are not willing to give you a loan anymore), then you to go into collective debt settlement (whereby a lawyer makes up the budget, only giving you 200 EUR a month or so to survive after rent for a house), your assets are sold off (except for necessary things), the rest is given to creditors for a few years and then you are of the hook. The rest of outstanding debt at that moment is deemed to be non-existent, so you can take up your life again. Being on such a limited budget is not easy, but for me it still gives the wrong signal.

    Just saying that there are arguments to be made in favour of punishing not paying back debt...

     
    With all due respect, as a lawyer, I don't agree with your analysis.

    When you steal my car, a criminal offence is committed the moment you do this. The fact that you are prepared to compensate me doesn't change the fact that a criminal offence has been committed.

    Of course, the authorities have a duty to uphold the law and so the Police and prosecuting authorities will consider whether to prosecute you.

    I have previously explained in my earlier posts why borrowing money in good faith (i.e. where no deception is involved) is not like stealing so I do not propose to set out those explanations again here.

    Your next paragraph seems to me to be an 'arrangement with creditors'. These types of deals are usually done in cases of personal bankruptcy. Again, bankruptcy is a civil liability between a bankrupt debtor and his/her creditor(s) and is not a criminal liabilty.

    Please do not take this the wrong way - it's sometimes difficult for me as a lawyer to explain these things successfully to people who have no legal training - but you are confusing civil liabilities between private persons (people or companies) with criminal liabilities where people infringe the criminal law (i.e. they offend against the State). It may seem like they have something in common and that they somehow overlap but, really, they are separate concepts entirely.

    --

    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Just as a postscript, it is not for the State to punish debtors as criminals for being unable to repay their civil contractual obligations. Protecting the rest of society in this way is interventionist paternalism that should not be allowed to interfere with privately negotiated loans between private individuals. 


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Leawood911:

    What a concept - not paying for something is like STEALING it.  The theft is just not instant but the same result for the seller/victim.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  It would be a nice way to remind people not to buy crap they don't need.

    Yes - politicians who don't vote for a balanced budget should be the first to go.

    Cheers,

    I wouldn't go as far as to say theft, Leawood. Remember, you do not own the car or the asset - the bank does. You're merely making payments on it. The bank still maintains a lien and ownership rights until they are repaid.

    What you did was default on a contract. Contracts go south all the time. Part of doing business. You charge a premium and interest accordingly for the risk.


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    easy_rider911:

    it is not for the State to punish debtors as criminals for being unable to repay their civil contractual obligations.


    The ICCPR-International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (put in force 1976) even contains a paragraph forbidding the State to do so.

    Though interesting how long the concept of throwing people into a prison for being unable to pay their bills survived: for example in Germany it was  invented in the medieval and survived until 19th century.

    The delinquents were locked away into a special prison, mostly designed in the form of a tower, hence they called it "Schuldturm" ("Debt Tower")

    Modern capitalism wouldn't work with this system: entrepreneurship bears the risk of failing. If you'd add the risk of loosing freedom, nobody would start a business anymore.

    Imagine how many of these towers you'd need in the US to lock all those away who aren't able to pay off their mortgages Smiley

    schuldturm.jpg


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Abandoned in Dubai

    Thanks Porsche-Jeck. Always nice to have input from another lawyer


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


     
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