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    AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Sorry if this is old news, but I will no longer be purchasing a GT3 based on this issue. How can PCNA produce a track oriented car with a sunroof?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    I commend you for doing so.
    I mean, it's a ridiculous slap on the face and the only thing that will cause them to change their decision making, apparently, is a financial hit.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Yea man, the sunroof thing is ridiculous. Make sure your dealer knows exactly why you are canceling, so they can bitch to PCNA that they are losing customers due to there being no "delete" option. What's the point of the GT3 having aluminum doors and trunk lid if it's just going to be offset by a worthless luxury feature that adds weight to the highest point of the car.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Erik said:
    Yea man, the sunroof thing is ridiculous. Make sure your dealer knows exactly why you are canceling, so they can bitch to PCNA that they are losing customers due to there being no "delete" option. What's the point of the GT3 having aluminum doors and trunk lid if it's just going to be offset by a worthless luxury feature that adds weight to the highest point of the car.


    Even the Mitsubishi EVO (which costs 1/3 as much) and the new BMW M3 (which costs 1/2 as much) have special lightweight materials used for the roof with no sunroof (aluminum on the EVO and Carbon Fibre on the M3).

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Funny that you mention those 2 cars, as I will likely keep my EVO to race and will purchase the new M3 to commute and occasionally track. It's ashame as I was ready to throw money at porsche, but they apparently no longer offer a street legal, track oriented car.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Barfly said:
    Sorry if this is old news, but I will no longer be purchasing a GT3 based on this issue. How can PCNA produce a track oriented car with a sunroof?



    Wow cancel buying a GT3 because you can't delete the sunroof. I don't track and have no desire to but I guess having a sunroof is a no no. Is there anyway you can drive one or talk to someone who has one to see what they think? If the only thing wrong with the car is the sunroof I would still buy it. I would think the GT3 would be killer even with the sunroof.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    Barfly said:
    Sorry if this is old news, but I will no longer be purchasing a GT3 based on this issue. How can PCNA produce a track oriented car with a sunroof?



    Wow cancel buying a GT3 because you can't delete the sunroof. I don't track and have no desire to but I guess having a sunroof is a no no. Is there anyway you can drive one or talk to someone who has one to see what they think? If the only thing wrong with the car is the sunroof I would still buy it. I would think the GT3 would be killer even with the sunroof.



    I think Barfly is condemning the principle. Why would you shell out over 100 thousand dollars (think about that, 1/10th of a million dollars) for a product that can't satisfy simple aspects of a consumer wants in a sportscar?

    It's not like they can't make the GT3 without a sunroof, they do (in Europe). They just think that the US customer's needs are not worth the price of crash-testing 4-5 cars.

    Fine PAG, hopefully you'll loose well more than the value of those 4-5 cars. Hopefully a lot more.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    I would love someone to prove to me that thier lap times will be significantly lower in a car without a sunroof vs. one with. Given the 997 has more headroom than the non-sunroof 996 so there is enough helmet room for most drivers, is this simply based on principle?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    lap times won't suffer but this is not a race car, you're going to have fun in it!! and the sunroof will affect the balence and/or handling, even if by a minimal margin.
    It's stupid that europe as it and the usa don't!!!

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    This is a matter of principle, but a principle that matters a great deal to those for whom principles are most important: purists.

    I commend anyone who makes a point of complaining about this or even passes the car up for another choice. Porsche should do better, but they are geting too greedy these days. It's starting to affect how I feel about the company in a serious way.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    US market is quite surprising !

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    pedro_b said:
    and the sunroof will affect the balence and/or handling, even if by a minimal margin.




    How do we know this? Doesn't everyone think Porsche has tested the car?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    This is a matter of principle, but a principle that matters a great deal to those for whom principles are most important: purists.

    I commend anyone who makes a point of complaining about this or even passes the car up for another choice. Porsche should do better, but they are geting too greedy these days. It's starting to affect how I feel about the company in a serious way.



    I understand not buying it based on principle. The best way to show Porsche is not to buy their products. If enough people stop buying it they will change. But I have a feeling that people will still buy it

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Mac10 said:
    I would love someone to prove to me that thier lap times will be significantly lower in a car without a sunroof vs. one with. Given the 997 has more headroom than the non-sunroof 996 so there is enough helmet room for most drivers, is this simply based on principle?


    It's even more severe than laptimes. Many people (like myself) cannot fit inside the car with a helmet and a sunroof (causes the headroom to be considerably smaller since there is an empty cavity in the roof to store the slided part when retracted).

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    This is very simple. Porsche has gone to great lengths to reduce weight in the GT3 and even more so in the GT3 RS. This includes carbon bonnet, aluminium doors and a special lightweight battery. To then add a comfort feature that puts the weight back in again - at the worst possible place - is mindblowingly stupid. It doesn't matter ONE BIT if an average driver can tell the difference or not. Anyone buying the GT3 is paying for all those weight savings and agrees with a purist philosophy. If he didn't he would get a Carrera. If that person is living in the US he is getting completely screwed. Porsche needs to be careful as they are making more money than freinds right now. I'm not in the US, but they have my sympathy and I share their frustration with whatever [censored] who made the US mandatory sunroof decision. Really hope people cancel orders. I fear they won't. At least I hope some Porsche people read these forums.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    That's my primary reason. I am 6'4" and even with the EVO and its 39.9" headroom, my head still touches the roof with a helmet on. Add the extra weight of the sunroof and the higher CG, it seems counterintuitive to their weightsaving, high performance philosophy. It also doesn't make sense to spend 120k on a car and not be absolutely happy with it. I thought the GT3 was for the track oriented (even the RS only comes with a sunroof). More and more these days Porsche is looking to flood the market with softer, daily driven, tiptronic badges that a large percentage of the customers don't know how to properly drive. A lot don't care, and that's fine. It would be nice, however, to be able to have a track oriented, street legal option in the US as the European market does. Porsche is making a killing catering to the masses, can't they reserve a spot in their lineup for those that are interested in using their cars for how they were originally intended? I know Ferrari does.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    You're right, on the track most normal drivers would not notice the sunroof in back to back comparisons. Many of the people buying GT3's and RS's are NOT normal drivers. They are people that spend too much time playing around on racetracks for fun. They (and I am one of them) WILL notice the difference.

    If I buy a 911 for street use, I don't mind a sunroof. I don't like it, but I can live with it. But if I am going to track my car it will not have a sunroof (except my 914 with it's targa top, but it's faster than a GT3 anyways, and my baby...).

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Not to be a Porsche apologist but...yes it is silly they don't offer a sunroof delete, but even sillier to get all bent out of shape about it. IMHO, of course.

    The day Porsche lets itself be run by purists is the day they go bankrupt. They would go back to selling just 911s. No wait, just air-cooled 911s. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air-bags. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air bags and carbs instead of EFI. No wait...I meant 356s... You see, there is no satisfying purists, because there are as many types of purist as there are extremes.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Not to be a Porsche apologist but...yes it is silly they don't offer a sunroof delete, but even sillier to get all bent out of shape about it. IMHO, of course.

    The day Porsche lets itself be run by purists is the day they go bankrupt. They would go back to selling just 911s. No wait, just air-cooled 911s. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air-bags. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air bags and carbs instead of EFI. No wait...I meant 356s... You see, there is no satisfying purists, because there are as many types of purist as there are extremes.



    I'm sorry, but I'm sure this mentality isn't what made you a fan of Porsche. I know it wasn't what captivated me in my youth.

    If the beancounter way is the only way for Porsche, then maybe it isn't the same company that we all fell in love with. Don't get me wrong, I love many of the products that the engineers make, but the other aspect of it is deplorable and I can't support that with my hard earned money.

    If the beancounters do in fact run the company, with such decisions, the only way to make them understand this sentiment (besides the back and forth banter online) is to effect their earnings.
    Members of rennlist.org organized a letter that was sent by dozens of individuals (past, current and prospective GT3 buyers) to PCNA. The resonse? Kaput. You have to hit them where it hurts, which doesn't appear to be their pride in their product (not the engineers, but the company), rather their earning reports.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Write PCNA..Re GT3 Sunroof
    Please write expressing your displeasure for including a sunroof in the new GT3 and the added weight in the worse possible area.

    Porsche Cars North America Inc
    980 Hammond Drive Suite 1000
    Atlanta, GA 30328

    The PCNA party line: "Sunroof is standard on all 997 Coupe models, due to the 997 Coupe body shell receiving crash certification with this item"

    What impact will this have on the US GT3RS???
    It is after all a 997 Coupe Body
    Will it get the "hole" as well?

    Interesting fact is that PAG does the actual testing/certification and submits docs to NHTSA.

    Someone please help us in the USA


    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Hurst, I understand what you are saying, but even with the sunroof, the GT3 is still an exceptional automobile. It isn't as if they made a piece of junk and stuck the Porsche logo on it. It is a take-no-prisoners serious a$$-hauling machine. Even with a sunroof.

    If folks feel that strongly about it, then by all means do whatever it takes to make yourselves heard. But personally it doesn't sound like nearly as an egregious a problem as folks are making it out to be. No sunroof delete is stupid, but it doesn't substantively affect the car. For me, that is the real bottom line.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Agree 100%. With reference to adrift's post, no one is suggesting that Porsche be "run by purists". I'm cool with Cayenne's, Boxster's and the umpteen variants of 911. But the GT3(-RS) is developed for, and marketed towards those with a purist bent. That's the whole idea, at least in theory.
    So the idea that these guys would highlight a reduced weight battery as a feature, but throw in a sunroof as mandatory is totally ridiculous.

    Letters are fine, but as you point out they have to be hit in the pocket book to really get the message. I'm not sure of the reach of these forums in the general Porsche buying community (probably low), but I would suspect it is higher for GT3 owners and future GT3 customers. I'm hoping that enough prospective GT3 "purists" in the US hold out and send the message loud and clear to PAG. What would it hurt to pull your deposit for 6 months and see what happens?
    May not work here but internet revolts have brought other companies to their knees for trying to screw with their loyal customer base.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    MikeB said:
    Letters are fine, but as you point out they have to be hit in the pocket book to really get the message. I'm not sure of the reach of these forums in the general Porsche buying community (probably low), but I would suspect it is higher for GT3 owners and future GT3 customers. I'm hoping that enough prospective GT3 "purists" in the US hold out and send the message loud and clear to PAG. What would it hurt to pull your deposit for 6 months and see what happens?
    May not work here but internet revolts have brought other companies to their knees for trying to screw with their loyal customer base.



    The flaw with the pulling the deposit theory is the Allocation system...
    The dealer gets his Allocation from PCNA
    The car will get ordered, customer or not
    PAG is happy, they sol a unit to PCNA
    PCNA is happy a dealer has a unit...
    Sadly there will be a yahoo that is clueless and buy the car.

    Sadly the auto biz is just a numbers game...No tradition involved..

    Only in the USA are Sunroofs mandatory
    Some beancounter decides that there is perceived value with one.

    I wonder what % of ROW cars are fitted with the "Optional" Sunroof in the 997 series???

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Well I guess we will have to wait and see how many people will actually cancel their orders. If people are upset with Porsche making too much money I hope the sunroof on a GT3 did not bring this on. All P-Cars are overpriced just like most other true sport cars. How many of us really think a 997S should cost 100K+ US? I know we pay that but really is it worth it? Porsche is just like everyone else, they make cars to sell them and to make a profit. I'm sure they have passion for the cars they make but in the end it is about selling a product and making money off of it. If enough people don't buy the GT3 then Porsche will not make it anymore.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    That's not my intention. I would LOVE to purchase a GT3. I think it's a fantastic machine that deserves to be driven hard on the track, and I enjoy that sort of thing. The head clearance issue would prevent me in doing so.

    For what it's worth, I will also write a letter.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Mac10 said:
    I would love someone to prove to me that thier lap times will be significantly lower in a car without a sunroof vs. one with. Given the 997 has more headroom than the non-sunroof 996 so there is enough helmet room for most drivers, is this simply based on principle?



    Well no sunroof means more rigidity, but only someone like a Schumacher will notice. No difference for anyone on rennteam.com.

    David

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    Mac10 said:
    I would love someone to prove to me that thier lap times will be significantly lower in a car without a sunroof vs. one with. Given the 997 has more headroom than the non-sunroof 996 so there is enough helmet room for most drivers, is this simply based on principle?



    Well no sunroof means more rigidity, but only someone like a Schumacher will notice. No difference for anyone on rennteam.com.

    David



    The difference is subtle in terms of dynamics but more important when you're buying a track focused car, towards the principle.

    If I'm buying a luxo-econo-box cruiser, I don't give a [censored] if its 4000 lbs or 5000 lbs. It's not made for that.

    However, if a company expects me to put down 100 grand for a car that is meant to be a purist's track car and offers no option for sunroof delete, I see it as a slap to the face via PAG beancounters. Simple as that.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    You know what would REALLY send the message loud and clear to Porsche? For someone to buy a new 997 GT3 (preferably in speed yellow, black interior, a few carbon fibre accents) and then give it to me, out of pure disgust with the sunroof. Think of all the press that would garner! Any takers? lol

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    You know what would REALLY send the message loud and clear to Porsche? For someone to buy a new 997 GT3 (preferably in speed yellow, black interior, a few carbon fibre accents) and then give it to me, out of pure disgust with the sunroof. Think of all the press that would garner! Any takers? lol



    Ditto I will take any and all GT3 people want to give me. I promise to never use the sunroom out of support for the people.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    Mac10 said:
    I would love someone to prove to me that thier lap times will be significantly lower in a car without a sunroof vs. one with. Given the 997 has more headroom than the non-sunroof 996 so there is enough helmet room for most drivers, is this simply based on principle?



    Well no sunroof means more rigidity, but only someone like a Schumacher will notice. No difference for anyone on rennteam.com.

    David



    I Absolutly disagree. A sunroof with all of its internals and such has to wear about 50-70 pounds. At the HIGHEST point of the car!

    Not only would you feel a difference just by taking out that much weight, but the lower center of gravity would be evident too.

    You don't have to be a Shumacher to feel the difference in vehicle dynamics...

    If you went around the track and then raised you ride height by an inch and went back out, would you feel it? I would, and so would many other people. On the track, do you feel the difference a couple of measly pounds of tire pressure make? I'm sure you do!

    Having a sunroof in this car does not make it an unsuitable car for the track, BUT it DOES make it a LESS suitable car for the track. I don't know presonally one GT3 owner that DOESN'T track their car, and the fact that Porsche has a track prepaired shell and decides NOT to give it to North America in order that can save a few hundred thousand dollars irks me.

     
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