Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    This post is fairly worthless, but I thought I would just share my amazement that the Porsche 3.6L Flat-6 dry-sump motor has come a long way from 250hp in the 1989 964 to 415hp in the 2007 GT3 - same basic block, but improvements have brought an increase in power of 67% without forced induction - pretty remarkable!

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    As the owner of a 1990 964 - my thoughts exactly!

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    I figured the majority of 997 owners today won't even miss the true dry sump systems in their engines. If Porsche AG builds them with an 'integral' dry sump and with the kind of cornering it is capable of with today's factory-equipped tires, we may not develop (or sustain) enough of a centrifical force to tax this lesser sump. With less external (to the engine) plumbing we also run less of a risk of oil leaks.

    Is anyone out there really upset that they didn't get a true dry-sump lubrication system in their 997/997S cars?

    Dan

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    It's a remarkable engine and as such it deserves, well, remark. I agree, it is pretty amazing. That's a great specific output and not just that, the motor is one you wouldn't worry about driving hard every weekend at the track.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Hey John,

    Good to see a famous writer in Rennteam!

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Mikla said:
    Hey John,

    Good to see a famous writer in Rennteam!



    A famous writer came in? Anyone I know?

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Dan L said:
    Is anyone out there really upset that they didn't get a true dry-sump lubrication system in their 997/997S cars?

    Dan


    Dan - I bought a 2002 996C2 new from the dealer (only new car I've ever owned) and read about the "Integral Dry-Sump" on the window sticker just before writing the largest check of my life (other than house downpayment). I had owned several older 911's before (with actual dry-sumps), and I was really let down to learn that the "Integral Dry Sump" was really just a way for Porsche to disguise the fact that they were now using a wet sump (manual even states that the car cannot be driven on racetracks with race tires).

    Will the average owner know or care? Absolutely not. Will the average guy who goes to PCA DE's ever cause his 996/7 to starve for oil? No. Did it bother me anyways? Yes.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Did it bother me anyways? Yes.



    Yet the level of bother was not sufficient to discourage you from writing the check which seems to justify PAG's engineering and marketing decisions.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    I think he found out after he wrote the check...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Donald Duck said:
    I think he found out after he wrote the check...



    That's not how I read it.


    Quote:
    Grant said:...and read about the "Integral Dry-Sump" on the window sticker just before writing the largest check of my life...


    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    jerrygee said:
    Quote:
    Donald Duck said:
    I think he found out after he wrote the check...



    That's not how I read it.


    Quote:
    Grant said:...and read about the "Integral Dry-Sump" on the window sticker just before writing the largest check of my life...




    I was under the spell of Porsche marketing - I thought integrated dry-sump was the same as dry-sump when writing the check. I learned the truth well after the check was written...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Who cares? If you want to run slicks you need a GT3 (which like the Turbo do have a true dry sump). There are some consumer advantages to the new design - like fewer oil leaks.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I was under the spell of Porsche marketing - I thought integrated dry-sump was the same as dry-sump when writing the check. I learned the truth well after the check was written...



    Having lived with one in the past, would you buy another integrated dry-sump model?

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Who cares? If you want to run slicks you need a GT3 (which like the Turbo do have a true dry sump). There are some consumer advantages to the new design - like fewer oil leaks.


    Actually, the integrated dry-sump engines have MANY more oil leaks (Rear Main Seal).

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I was under the spell of Porsche marketing - I thought integrated dry-sump was the same as dry-sump when writing the check. I learned the truth well after the check was written...



    Having lived with one in the past, would you buy another integrated dry-sump model?


    I might, but it's unlikely. I'm mostly smitten with the older 911's (all dry-sump prior to the 996) and the GT3's (all dry-sump).

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Who cares? If you want to run slicks you need a GT3 (which like the Turbo do have a true dry sump). There are some consumer advantages to the new design - like fewer oil leaks.


    Actually, the integrated dry-sump engines have MANY more oil leaks (Rear Main Seal).



    Heh, while funny, this isn't an entirely fair statement. My 996TT drank oil, more than any other (non broken) car I have owned. My M96 cars have used virtually NO oil, and leaked even less (read: none). Until one of them developed a version of RMS. Then it was repaired under warranty and I haven't seen a drop since.

    I think my experience is fairly typical.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Who cares? If you want to run slicks you need a GT3 (which like the Turbo do have a true dry sump). There are some consumer advantages to the new design - like fewer oil leaks.


    Actually, the integrated dry-sump engines have MANY more oil leaks (Rear Main Seal).



    Heh, while funny, this isn't an entirely fair statement. My 996TT drank oil, more than any other (non broken) car I have owned. My M96 cars have used virtually NO oil, and leaked even less (read: none). Until one of them developed a version of RMS. Then it was repaired under warranty and I haven't seen a drop since.

    I think my experience is fairly typical.


    Turbo cars always drink more oil, regardless of sump design. With regard to leaks, I may have mispoken. I should've said that the dry-sump cars have fewer leaks "of any consequence".

    The RMS leak is one that could be extrememly expensive if it occurs out of warranty.

    Most of the leaks from the dry-sump cars (I'm thinking of older 911's here, not the GT3 which I don't have any experience with) just require an occasionaly cleaning of a couple drops on the garage floor and topping up of the oil level in the car.

    That's no big deal, compared to a huge loss of oil with the RMS leak and engine replacement (which is required of the wet sump cars with out-of-spec crankshaft clearances - not uncommon).

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    If you wish to run the M96/M97 engines with slicks, then observe what the Grand Am Cup cars do... the ensuing is relevant

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=298675#post3399517

    Intriguing that some full blown race cars use the M97 engines, and don't seem to be suffering calamities at every high G corner...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    BMCG said:Intriguing that some full blown race cars use the M97 engines, and don't seem to be suffering calamities at every high G corner...


    Also sounds as if they are making significant modifications to the oiling system (Accusump)...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=294881&page=3&pp=15

    Post 39 has relevant comment on Accusump usage...and regarding tuning.

    In short, engine preparer states they've never seen an Accusump in Grand Am Cup, and prudent to detune engines ~5hp from max power.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    BMCG said:
    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=294881&page=3&pp=15

    Post 39 has relevant comment on Accusump usage...and regarding tuning.

    In short, engine preparer states they've never seen an Accusump in Grand Am Cup, and prudent to detune engines ~5hp from max power.


    Interesting. Sounds like some pretty catstrophic engine failure though (broken rods and holes in the crankcase). I wonder how the GT3 motors would've faired in comparison...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    It would be interesting to see how many out of warranty cars develop RMS issues. Or do they normally develop within the first 4 years, and so are sorted out by the time the warranty expires? Also, not that everyone has this experience, but I have heard of Porsche picking up the tab on RMS failures out of warranty a time or two.

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    adrift said:
    It would be interesting to see how many out of warranty cars develop RMS issues. Or do they normally develop within the first 4 years, and so are sorted out by the time the warranty expires? Also, not that everyone has this experience, but I have heard of Porsche picking up the tab on RMS failures out of warranty a time or two.


    Many of them do occur w/i first 4 years, but some have taken longer and many have recurred - multiple repairs required over several years...

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Welll- the similarity between a 964 aircooled engine and a 2006 GT3 engine are close to zero! The present GT3, like the 996 version, is based on a racing engine-design from the 964 days (only), that had some water cooling in the heads....

    KiwiCanuck

    Dream on----

    Re: The Porsche 3.6L dry-sump: A casual observation

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:
    Welll- the similarity between a 964 aircooled engine and a 2006 GT3 engine are close to zero! The present GT3, like the 996 version, is based on a racing engine-design from the 964 days (only), that had some water cooling in the heads....

    KiwiCanuck

    Dream on----


    Well, they do share the same crankcase and displacement, but much of everything else is different...

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    582983 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    358518 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/10/21 2:32 PM
    Joost
    86662 1085
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 5/8/21 9:11 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    44860 342
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    35446 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    33252 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 5/6/21 4:40 AM
    4trac
    16569 342
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    4472 29
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 7/27/20 2:13 AM
    DJM48
    564398 5257
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    404605 3586
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 4/25/21 4:04 PM
    Topspeed
    357896 3916
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 4/29/21 7:24 AM
    GnilM
    354689 3494
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    315882 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    310102 2646
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/28/21 8:05 PM
    Topspeed
    217618 1542
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    189268 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    161224 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    138276 792
    Porsche 992 GT3 5/7/21 4:00 AM
    CGX car nut
    119200 2267
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    106206 1225
    McLaren F1 2/25/21 11:33 AM
    RCA
    77285 207
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 4/29/21 3:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    70980 1163
    AMG AMG GT R 11/19/20 11:47 PM
    Topspeed
    65001 819
    Lambo Aventador and SV 4/20/21 3:21 PM
    CGX car nut
    64095 683
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    57129 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    43484 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 4/12/21 3:42 PM
    RCA
    36700 476
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    34064 615
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 5/7/21 5:56 AM
    GnilM
    30467 462
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 3/21/21 5:01 PM
    Topspeed
    28827 385
    273 items found, displaying 1 to 30.