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Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
Artistboy said:
IMHO, the winners are the owners/drivers in all this discussion. I have had F cars (348, 355, 360, 430 on order) and P cars (356, 930 993tt, 996tts, 997tt delivery July). They have all shown massive improvement with each new model. F and P have very different personalities (Italian & German). They are all fun to drive. The key is how much they must advance to keep competitive. I am not waiting for the model that is 0-100km in 1.2 secs, gets 60 miles to the gallon and does the Nring in 5 minutes. Havin fun drivin all! My $.02
David
Very well said David!
I don't get all this hassle about which is faster either.
We, the sportscar-enthusiasts and -drivers are the winners, as there is ever more competition amongst the manufacturers and so there are more cars to choose from.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Eventhough it is slower I think that the GT3 is the porsche that should ahve been in the test. With its very advance four wheel drive system and added weight the Turbo grips like no other car but seem in no way to be as thrilling as the 993 TT.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
luwalira said:
Eventhough it is slower I think that the GT3 is the porsche that should ahve been in the test. With its very advance four wheel drive system and added weight the Turbo grips like no other car but seem in no way to be as thrilling as the 993 TT.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
Yes, the GT3 is truly the last REAL Porsche. However, the GT2 might do the trick, if you can handle it without hurting the first lamp post you encounter.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
luwalira said:
Eventhough it is slower I think that the GT3 is the porsche that should ahve been in the test. With its very advance four wheel drive system and added weight the Turbo grips like no other car but seem in no way to be as thrilling as the 993 TT.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
Even better than the GT3, the GT2 should be the car to compare the 430 against. It's much closer in all the categories that you think of when comparing models, especially price. But I guess since it's not out yet it's at least interesting to see how the turbo compares.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Performance wise the Turbo is the car to compare to the F430, the GT2 will be closer to a 599GTB. The Turbo is faster than the F430 already, so the GT2 will definitely demolish it. I'm not sure if the GT2 will have enough to beat a 599GTB at high speeds, but should be faster 0-100 mph.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
luwalira said:
Eventhough it is slower I think that the GT3 is the porsche that should ahve been in the test. With its very advance four wheel drive system and added weight the Turbo grips like no other car but seem in no way to be as thrilling as the 993 TT.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
Even better than the GT3, the GT2 should be the car to compare the 430 against. It's much closer in all the categories that you think of when comparing models, especially price. But I guess since it's not out yet it's at least interesting to see how the turbo compares.
Exaclty. In terms of availabilty and power the GT2 will be very smiliar to the F430. As I see it the Turbo is a GT just like the 599.
The Turbo seem to have lost some of its charm. Many magazines have said that it is fantastic and more or less perfect but have on the other hand said that the ride lacks thrill and excitement. While the GT3 has been charished and received no negative critique.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
If compared on those terms than yes, I agree whith you, but if compared by performance, the Turbo and F430 are probably each other's closest competitors. Luwaria, what makes you think that the GT2 will be closer to the F430 in terms of power? The Turbo has 480 hp, the F430 490 hp. The Turbo has far more Torque and a more usable power band. The GT2 is rumored to have between 530-550hp and will absolutely crush the F430.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
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trip said:
If compared on those terms than yes, I agree whith you, but if compared by performance, the Turbo and F430 are probably each other's closest competitors. Luwaria, what makes you think that the GT2 will be closer to the F430 in terms of power? The Turbo has 480 hp, the F430 490 hp. The Turbo has far more Torque and a more usable power band. The GT2 is rumored to have between 530-550hp and will absolutely crush the F430.
Yes you are right. In my head i mized up the power of the F430 with the Gallardo SE(520hp).
It seem like Porsche doesn't have a proper F430 competitor. The GT3 is under powered, the Turbo is equiped with too many electronic aids and the GT2 will be much more powerful and more expensive.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
The Turbo's electronic aids can be disabled. The GT3 is not much slower than the F430, if slower at all (have you seen the video of the 996 GT3 beating the 430?). The GT2 will be much more powerful, but (at least in the U.S.) probably not much more expensive if at all.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
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luwalira said:Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
luwalira said:
Eventhough it is slower I think that the GT3 is the porsche that should ahve been in the test. With its very advance four wheel drive system and added weight the Turbo grips like no other car but seem in no way to be as thrilling as the 993 TT.
IMO the Turbo is now the car for high paid CEO with fat bellies who wants something to brag with. The GT3 seem to be the true 911 and the choice for the real Porsche enthusiast.
Even better than the GT3, the GT2 should be the car to compare the 430 against. It's much closer in all the categories that you think of when comparing models, especially price. But I guess since it's not out yet it's at least interesting to see how the turbo compares.
Exaclty. In terms of availabilty and power the GT2 will be very smiliar to the F430. As I see it the Turbo is a GT just like the 599.
The Turbo seem to have lost some of its charm. Many magazines have said that it is fantastic and more or less perfect but have on the other hand said that the ride lacks thrill and excitement. While the GT3 has been charished and received no negative critique.
As you said, "Many magazines have said that it is fantastic and more or less perfect but have on the other hand said that the ride lacks thrill and excitement." But thats not what Excellence in august said..:-)...Page 96 ", the new 997 trubo appears to be getting a bit harder a bit more aggressive"(than the 996 turbo)..but in the same article..."While the new car is more civilzed than ever, it moves the performance and ability side of it's character not one, but two rungs up the ladder"..at full throttle the 997 turbo feels tuner car aggressive".....yeah that sounds like something that lacks thrill and excitement.
In terms of the GT3...is that why they upgraded the rear end traction control?..so it will advance no further than the 996..if for no other reason than too maintain status quo and the only remaining porshc eor something to that affect? Lets get serious here ..this car is going to be a wonderful car...the 997 turbo...will enable you to feel the riad at speed and rip with the best of them...yeah yeah the odd mustang will send you running for viagara..but in terms of its' overall capability...the will be an automotive masterpiece...and I don't work for porshce..but in my next incarnation I think it might be great to watch one of these cars roll off the assembly line...
I am seeing my car on tuesday and I can hardly wait...and twelve months from now any of you guys that wants to drive on a road that offers incredible scenery come down to the cabot trail...
you will likely enjoy the road....but watch out for the real moose...they tend to distort cars and the chasis of same, quite fast if you think it's always the same line Count down to 911tt
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
First, let's clear it out-997 Turbo is the winner of this test in AZ! It was also first in drive dynamics category(Gallardo was second here, F430 third and Z06 fourth)...
Point of this article was to show that competitors are really strong this time!
BTW, yesterday I was driving to Adriatic coast with my brother, I was in Gallardo(I get it from my friend for try,MY2006,520hp,manual) and my brother was in my F430F1 Spider. F430 is not faster then Gallardo at all! I was able to follow him in one car lenght till 240km/h without any problems. So, I would be very suprised if new 997 Turbo(when I get mine in November) is really faster then F430 or Gallardo... Here I mean real difference, NOT one car lenght or so...
Also, Gallardo is at least as good as F430 IMO, only different in feel!
Point of this article was to show that competitors are really strong this time!
BTW, yesterday I was driving to Adriatic coast with my brother, I was in Gallardo(I get it from my friend for try,MY2006,520hp,manual) and my brother was in my F430F1 Spider. F430 is not faster then Gallardo at all! I was able to follow him in one car lenght till 240km/h without any problems. So, I would be very suprised if new 997 Turbo(when I get mine in November) is really faster then F430 or Gallardo... Here I mean real difference, NOT one car lenght or so...
Also, Gallardo is at least as good as F430 IMO, only different in feel!
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
First, let's clear it out-997 Turbo is the winner of this test in AZ! It was also first in drive dynamics category(Gallardo was second here, F430 third and Z06 fourth)...
Point of this article was to show that competitors are really strong this time!
BTW, yesterday I was driving to Adriatic coast with my brother, I was in Gallardo(I get it from my friend for try,MY2006,520hp,manual) and my brother was in my F430F1 Spider. F430 is not faster then Gallardo at all! I was able to follow him in one car lenght till 240km/h without any problems. So, I would be very suprised if new 997 Turbo(when I get mine in November) is really faster then F430 or Gallardo... Here I mean real difference, NOT one car lenght or so...
Also, Gallardo is at least as good as F430 IMO, only different in feel!
The F430 tested by Auto Zeitung was a ringer, I'm pretty sure about it. No license plates? How come
And the test data...never have seen that good test data on a F430.Of course the 997 TT is a winner, it achieved the same track time like the other two italian sportscars with street tires, not semi-slicks. Not to mention that the TT has less power too.
And of course your 997 TT won't be much faster than the Gallardo or F430, simply because you didn't order Tiptronic.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Hmm... I am pretty sure that my 997 Turbo(manual with LSD) will be faster then F430 and Gallardo.
Regarding TIP, well every thing was clear to me when you said that you always wanted 997 Turbo with TIP gearbox.
I hope that you will indeed, be very happy with it!
On the other hand manual is the best choice for me!
BTW, I am thinking also about all-weather daily driver with TIP gearbox! New Audi S6!
And I hope that you will agree with me that 997 Turbo is awsome car in both versions. One version(TIP) is slightly faster in acceleration while other(manual with LSD) is faster around Nordschleife(or any demanding twisty road)...
Something is telling me that we both will enjoy our Turbos very much!
I wish you and your family nice weekend Christian!
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
luwalira said:
It seems like Porsche doesn't have a proper F430 competitor. The GT3 is under powered, the Turbo is equiped with too many electronic aids and the GT2 will be much more powerful and more expensive.
1. power isn't everything, the new GT3 and the F430 achieved practically the same track time on the Nordschleife.
2. the F430 stands only a chance to come close to 997 TT performance if the road conditions are perfect. A little bit of rain or even some dirt on the street and the F430 stands no chance. And everything for 30000 Euro or so more.
3. a Tiptronic equipped 997 TT crushes the F430 to pieces from standstill and don't ask where I know this from.
Yes, the F430 is more stylish, it sounds much better and it has very likely a better resale value than the 997 TT. But the F430 is like a Diva, road conditions have to be right, car has to be maintained properly which costs a fortune if you really drive it on a daily basis and you're always risking to wake up with a damaged/scratched car or even without any car at all.
In my opinion, there is no better sportscar right now in the price range of the 997 TT.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
RC said:
2. the F430 stands only a chance to come close to 997 TT performance if the road conditions are perfect. A little bit of rain or even some dirt on the street and the F430 stands no chance. And everything for 30000 Euro or so more.
Of course the Turbo has an advantage when roads get slippery. It has AWD, so what did you expect?
A 997tt with optional PCCB and some goodies costs you around 150k, an equally equipped 430 you get for 160k, make it 168k if you choose F1. So I don't really see where you get the 30000 Euro number from. Probably some weakness in maths.
Quote:
3. a Tiptronic equipped 997 TT crushes the F430 to pieces from standstill and don't ask where I know this from.
Hasn't it been you, who always told us that the acceleration from standstill is the most useless criteria for a comparision amongst sportscars? I remember lively your arguments in the recent "Z06 beats 997tt"-discussions.
Quote:
Yes, the F430 is more stylish, it sounds much better and it has very likely a better resale value than the 997 TT. But the F430 is like a Diva, road conditions have to be right, car has to be maintained properly which costs a fortune if you really drive it on a daily basis and you're always risking to wake up with a damaged/scratched car or even without any car at all.
more stylish: true
sounds better: very true
better resale: also true
Diva: not true, drive it, talk again
only right road conditions: see above
costs a fortune in maintenance: more than than the 997tt, but much less than older Ferrari
damage/theft: I guess that can happen to ANY high end sportscar, what surely includes the 997tt
So I really don't get your arguments, Christian, it would be nice if you stop this F430-bashing, it gets tiring over the years.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
In new issue of German Auto Zeitung is big test including: 997 Turbo(manual), Vette Z06, F430 and Gallardo. 997 Turbo is better then the rest according to the article but, it is very interesting review...
Summary of key statistics (order: Z06 / F430 / Gallardo / 997TT Manual with SC):
0-100 kph: 4.4s / 3.8s / 4.2s / 3.9s
0-200 kph: 13.0s / 12.2s / 13.4s / 12.5s
Top Speed: 320kph / 316 / 315 / 310
Handling: 1:39.4 / 1:38.1 / 1:38.2 / 1:38.1
Handlung: 63.5kph / 69.2 / 69.1 / 67.2
Stopping Distance: 35.1 / 33.4 / 33.4 / 33.2
F430 and Gallardo were equipped with Corsa tires.
In summary the 997TT seems to be nothing special compared to competing offers: Just on par with competitors that are in the market for 2-3 years now. The days when a new Porsche TT offered superior performance seem to be over
I am a Z06 owner and have a 430 on order. I appreciate high performance cars and don't like to get into squabbles about my car being faster than your car, but I have to say, whoever tested the Z06 was either clueless as to their driving abilities or intentionally underperformed that car. There is torque management software in the Z and it is necessary to understand how to manage the power to get the optimum times some have already achieved with the Vette.
Most magazines that have tested the Z, show 0-60 (not 0-62, but close enough) times in the 3.5 to 3.9 range. Can't remember the mag, but I thought someone might have had a 3.4 along the way, which might not have been real. The really good drivers are doing the quarter mile, BONE STOCK (no drag radials) in the 11.2 to 11.3 range with a top speed in excess of 127 MPH. These are not rare times or top end speeds but have been repeated multiple times.
I do think that the four wheel drive gives the Porsches certain "off the line" advantages, but once past the first to second shift, the HP/weight ratio of the Z06 would suggest that the 1/4 mile would be easily won by the Z06. I thought the 1/4 mile top end for the 997T was about 120 or the very low 120's.
As for track issues, the Ring time for the Z seems to be pretty impressive with the right driver. For an average guy like me...that is another story.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
Vette6799 said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
In new issue of German Auto Zeitung is big test including: 997 Turbo(manual), Vette Z06, F430 and Gallardo. 997 Turbo is better then the rest according to the article but, it is very interesting review...
Summary of key statistics (order: Z06 / F430 / Gallardo / 997TT Manual with SC):
0-100 kph: 4.4s / 3.8s / 4.2s / 3.9s
0-200 kph: 13.0s / 12.2s / 13.4s / 12.5s
Top Speed: 320kph / 316 / 315 / 310
Handling: 1:39.4 / 1:38.1 / 1:38.2 / 1:38.1
Handlung: 63.5kph / 69.2 / 69.1 / 67.2
Stopping Distance: 35.1 / 33.4 / 33.4 / 33.2
F430 and Gallardo were equipped with Corsa tires.
In summary the 997TT seems to be nothing special compared to competing offers: Just on par with competitors that are in the market for 2-3 years now. The days when a new Porsche TT offered superior performance seem to be over
I am a Z06 owner and have a 430 on order. I appreciate high performance cars and don't like to get into squabbles about my car being faster than your car, but I have to say, whoever tested the Z06 was either clueless as to their driving abilities or intentionally underperformed that car. There is torque management software in the Z and it is necessary to understand how to manage the power to get the optimum times some have already achieved with the Vette.
Most magazines that have tested the Z, show 0-60 (not 0-62, but close enough) times in the 3.5 to 3.9 range. Can't remember the mag, but I thought someone might have had a 3.4 along the way, which might not have been real. The really good drivers are doing the quarter mile, BONE STOCK (no drag radials) in the 11.2 to 11.3 range with a top speed in excess of 127 MPH. These are not rare times or top end speeds but have been repeated multiple times.
I do think that the four wheel drive gives the Porsches certain "off the line" advantages, but once past the first to second shift, the HP/weight ratio of the Z06 would suggest that the 1/4 mile would be easily won by the Z06. I thought the 1/4 mile top end for the 997T was about 120 or the very low 120's.
As for track issues, the Ring time for the Z seems to be pretty impressive with the right driver. For an average guy like me...that is another story.
A very nice post, with well laid-out arguments. Let me throw in my two cents.
I don't know about the management system of the Vette, but I'd expect the car to be able to achieve the times, reported by the magazines by turning the key, putting it in gear and pressing the throttle. Any additional procedure, and it shouldn't count.
Regarding the 0-60 and 0-62 times, could you tell me how tall the first gear is? Many manufacturers make the first gear go almost exactly up to 60 mph, so that they achieve a good time, but they then have to shift, which leads to 0-62 times, which are disproportionately smaller. Could this be the case with the C6Z? Also, I thought that the 127 mph traps were achieved with headers.
Then we come to the AWD. One difference regarding the Turbo in comparison to the older models is its advanced AWD, which is capable of transferring 100% of the torque to either wheel pair, so the car is essentially a RWD car in the straight line, so no parasitic power loss. I'd also like to see how much power the Turbo really has, as compared to the manufacturer's claims. Also, above 200 km/h, weight becomes largely irrelevant and it all comes down to torque and aerodynamics.
Regarding the track times, I don't believe the times posted by the manufacturer (either Porsche's, Chevy's or anyone else's). Personally, I think all the rivalry is a good thing, since it pushes the manufacturers to give more performance to the buyers.
The only thing that will put all these debates to a stop will be RC's test during the summer. 997TT manual and tip, both with SC, the F430 and the Corvette C6 Z06. Put them all side by side and go at it. That will be the only true result, that we can all trust, regardless of which car actually wins.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
The Auto Zeitung test numbers for the Z06 are some of the slowest of any ever seen.
I suggest they are usless prancers with little real skill at laumching a car from a dead start.Maybe they can only do well with electronic nannies.
Its either that or they lifted slightly off the gas pedal after they got going.
They should be embarrassed and concerned. None of their test numbers for the Z06's accelleration match up right with many other tests. Very suspicious results.
I suggest they are usless prancers with little real skill at laumching a car from a dead start.Maybe they can only do well with electronic nannies.
Its either that or they lifted slightly off the gas pedal after they got going.
They should be embarrassed and concerned. None of their test numbers for the Z06's accelleration match up right with many other tests. Very suspicious results.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The Auto Zeitung test numbers for the Z06 are some of the slowest of any ever seen.
I suggest they are usless prancers with little real skill at laumching a car from a dead start.Maybe they can only do well with electronic nannies.
Its either that or they lifted slightly off the gas pedal after they got going.
They should be embarrassed and concerned. None of their test numbers for the Z06's accelleration match up right with many other tests. Very suspicious results.
Exactly, Jim. However, you will note that the 100-200 km/h times are virtually in a dead heat for the C6Z and the 997TT, as was the case with the C5Z and the 996TT.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Crash, I tried to find an "offical" chart of the shift points for the Z06 but did not readily come up with same. I believe at redline, 7K, the Z06 in first is doing 62 MPH. I can tell you, with my car, that you seem to lose very little at the 1st to second shift and the 2nd-3rd shift point. The thing that is amazing, which in no small part is due to the torque of a seven liter engine, is that the car just goes and goes and never seems to be working. I lose my braavdo at about 125 or 130 MPH on the street, but you get there very quickly.
Regarding your comment about cars being modded to get into the low 11's and 126-127, I respectfully disagree. These times and trap speed have been obtained on bone stock cars with stock tires. I have attached a link to Corvette Forum. Ranger is one of the more knowledgable vette guys you will ever run across and a gentlemen who respects others, regardless of what they drive, which is as it should be. Here's the link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1344947&highlight=best+shift+point
I do not expect the average guy on the street can expect to achieve what a skilled driver can - certainly not with the Z. I think a car like the F430 might be an easier drive than a car like the Z. Sorry, I have not had a lot of experience driving Porshces, but there is a certain amount of skill it takes to handle the raw power of the Z.
With headers and tuning, and nothing else, the Z06 is putting down in excess of 550 horsepower, not engine horsepower, mind you, but at the wheels. With those mods, 1/4 mile times have been in the tens and trap speeds in the 130's.
Your point about competition between manufacturers is certainly valid - the more aggressive the competion, the more the impetus to make a product special. All of us benefit when that occurs.
A bit about torque management in the Vette - and I do not hold myself out to be an expert in this regard, but from what I understand, high rpm launches tend to cause the engine to power down to prevent damage to the half-shafts and differentials. Ranger has been working within these software parameters and has determined that lower RPM launches, by keeping torqume management under control, decreases launch times. Some of the tuners have modified the firmware to get away from this issue, but that, of course, has its downsides from a warranty perspective.
I agree with you on another point - take all of these cars and put them "side by side" with equally skilled drivers and you should get an accurate picture of what these cars can achieve.
By the way, love that Carrera GT - thought about one a year ago, but I don't see that as a street car. What a beautiful creation.
Regarding your comment about cars being modded to get into the low 11's and 126-127, I respectfully disagree. These times and trap speed have been obtained on bone stock cars with stock tires. I have attached a link to Corvette Forum. Ranger is one of the more knowledgable vette guys you will ever run across and a gentlemen who respects others, regardless of what they drive, which is as it should be. Here's the link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1344947&highlight=best+shift+point
I do not expect the average guy on the street can expect to achieve what a skilled driver can - certainly not with the Z. I think a car like the F430 might be an easier drive than a car like the Z. Sorry, I have not had a lot of experience driving Porshces, but there is a certain amount of skill it takes to handle the raw power of the Z.
With headers and tuning, and nothing else, the Z06 is putting down in excess of 550 horsepower, not engine horsepower, mind you, but at the wheels. With those mods, 1/4 mile times have been in the tens and trap speeds in the 130's.
Your point about competition between manufacturers is certainly valid - the more aggressive the competion, the more the impetus to make a product special. All of us benefit when that occurs.
A bit about torque management in the Vette - and I do not hold myself out to be an expert in this regard, but from what I understand, high rpm launches tend to cause the engine to power down to prevent damage to the half-shafts and differentials. Ranger has been working within these software parameters and has determined that lower RPM launches, by keeping torqume management under control, decreases launch times. Some of the tuners have modified the firmware to get away from this issue, but that, of course, has its downsides from a warranty perspective.
I agree with you on another point - take all of these cars and put them "side by side" with equally skilled drivers and you should get an accurate picture of what these cars can achieve.
By the way, love that Carrera GT - thought about one a year ago, but I don't see that as a street car. What a beautiful creation.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Stefan, you are officially invited to the Rennteam summer party, I'll send you a PM with the details. Don't know if we're able to do the planned "shootout" the day after since I doubt that my car will have the necessary mileage but it is going to be fun...lots of nicecars and nice people.
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