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    420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    I hate to be beating a dead horse but in this months R&T new M3 with 420hp & 8400 rpm at est 3500 lbs. Conceivably start at 55K. I think it's time for porsche up the ante. Horsepower is not everything but if we r paying 85-100K for a car let's get a little more HP. OK vette Z06 got over 500 hp but BMW will have three cars with well over 400 hp. I'm hoping the 998 will start with at least 400 and maybe the next GT3 will have over 500hp.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    997 GT3 has almost identical HP, TQ, and redline as M3, but M3 needs 11% more displacement to do it.

    If M3 was lighter and smaller, it would be fun (it will be well over 3,500 lbs in street trim and the cab will be WAY
    more with folding roof).

    The original 4-cyl E30 M3 is still the best driver's car of the M3 bunch. More power does not always mean more fun...

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    The 997 competes against higher hp cars all the time and holds it's own. That said the car should and I expect will have near 400 hp in the 998.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    horsepower is not the only solution if the brakes cannot stop the car .

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    MICHEL said:
    horsepower is not the only solution if the brakes cannot stop the car .


    No kidding! How long until BMW finally equips its M-cars with real brakes?

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    yeah power is not everything and since porsche won't be able to increase power as aggressively as other makers due to rear engine layout size limitations... i hope they focus on weight reduction

    weight is the enemy

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    krC2S said:
    yeah power is not everything and since porsche won't be able to increase power as aggressively as other makers due to rear engine layout size limitations... i hope they focus on weight reduction

    weight is the enemy


    Agreed! If they could lose 20% of the weight, then that would be MUCH better than increasing power 20%, since acceleration, handling and braking would be so much better.

    When the mass of the car is reduced, then you can use lighter brakes, wheels, transmissions, driveshafts, etc. Everything benefits...

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    997 GT3 has almost identical HP, TQ, and redline as M3, but M3 needs 11% more displacement to do it.





    You guys are funny. The M3 could have 1000hp and weigh 1 pound and people will still have an issue with it. My take is who cares.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    997 GT3 has almost identical HP, TQ, and redline as M3, but M3 needs 11% more displacement to do it.





    You guys are funny. The M3 could have 1000hp and weigh 1 pound and people will still have an issue with it. My take is who cares.


    Not true - I would buy a new M3 in a second if:

    1. Same dimensions and weight as E30 M3 (88-91)
    2. Multi-link rear suspension from E36 or later (95+)
    2. As pretty as an E46 M3 (01-06)
    3. As much power, tq, redline as E92 M3 (08+) - even E46 power would do...
    4. Manual 6 or 7 spd tranny
    5. Brembo brakes
    6. Cost under $55k

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Rumors have it the newest 997 facelifted with grow 20 hp.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    Dan L said:
    Rumors have it the newest 997 facelifted with grow 20 hp.


    Hardly noticable (5.6%)

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    krC2S said:
    yeah power is not everything and since porsche won't be able to increase power as aggressively as other makers due to rear engine layout size limitations... i hope they focus on weight reduction

    weight is the enemy


    Agreed! If they could lose 20% of the weight, then that would be MUCH better than increasing power 20%, since acceleration, handling and braking would be so much better.

    When the mass of the car is reduced, then you can use lighter brakes, wheels, transmissions, driveshafts, etc. Everything benefits...



    Grant wow i just noticed the weight on your car

    you are speaking from experience!

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    the BHP war is getting ridiculous. People are so influence by bigger numbers that they don't even try to understand anything. it's like if we were all back to the stone age: "Me want More ... More Better ... argh ... me hungry !!!"

    400 is not enough, but when we'll have 500 it won't be enough because by the time wwe get 500, some vette will have 700 bhp and it goes on and on...

    I'm wondering how much bhp a bmw or a mersedes will have in 10 years from now. At the rate they are going, everybody here will be driving a veyron to get their kids to school.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    The M6 has a 500bhp V10 - is this a serious competitor for the 997 GT3? Nope. So why would the new M3 be?

    Unless BMW turn the tables with a better car than the 2003 M3 CSL (i.e. proper brakes and steering) then there really is no contest - Porsche will remain in another league...

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    the BHP war is getting ridiculous. People are so influence by bigger numbers that they don't even try to understand anything. it's like if we were all back to the stone age: "Me want More ... More Better ... argh ... me hungry !!!"

    400 is not enough, but when we'll have 500 it won't be enough because by the time wwe get 500, some vette will have 700 bhp and it goes on and on...

    I'm wondering how much bhp a bmw or a mersedes will have in 10 years from now. At the rate they are going, everybody here will be driving a veyron to get their kids to school.



    I agree!

    For example, MB is having a real problem getting all this power to the ground. Their excessive weight is also troubling.

    IMO, Porsche should stick with their original formula. Offering good power/weight ratio and superior handling for a fair price (value). Staying under 3,000lbs. would help. I don't care how much power a car has if it weighs 4,000+lbs. It just won't have the dynamics of a sports car.


    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    I have to remind myself that this is a Porsche forum, hence the P car slanted opinions.
    The M3 may well weigh in under 3500 lbs. Couple that with the rumored dual clutch tranny matted to a seven or possibly an eight speed matched gear set, and you will have quite a performer. The GT3 does achieve a higher HP per liter and to weight. The M3 is not meant to compete against this car. Consider that the M will weigh about the same as a 997 turbo and make roughly 86% of the turbo's HP, and do so with a na engine. Obviously it can't come near the torque but the fun will be winding that engine to 8400rpm. I agree that the car needs better brakes for track use but the new brakes will suffice for the street. If one were so inclined he/she could put Brembos on for about 5k. This car should come in about $65-$68 well optioned. Like someone else posted, the car could make 1000 HP per liter and it still would not compare to the "almighty Porsches". I love Porsches, but...c'mon.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    devo said:
    The M3 may well weigh in under 3500 lbs.


    Maybe without the engine

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    The M3 may well weigh in under 3500 lbs.


    Maybe without the engine



    LOL. You may be correct, but BMW have gone on record stating that light weight is the mission for this car. Some rumors (albiet rumors suggest it could weigh in between 3470-3525; with the engine, of course. Time will tell.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    The M3 may well weigh in under 3500 lbs.


    Maybe without the engine



    LOL. You may be correct, but BMW have gone on record stating that light weight is the mission for this car. Some rumors (albiet rumors suggest it could weigh in between 3470-3525; with the engine, of course. Time will tell.


    I hope you're right, but it's still a shame that they are trying so hard to break the 3,500 lb. barrier when their original M3 was around 800 lbs lighter

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    The new M3 will rock us hard. 414hp and rwd will make it faster on track than a 997 carrera S. The Audi RS4 is already faster on most tracks than the Porsche. Check the Ring laptimes for example
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Most people cant handle more than 400 HP.
    I have an F430 490hp and a 993 280hp. I have as much fun in the 993 on the street as the Fcar. You cant use all that power on the street very often. Even on the track 500 HP
    is too much for most people. Improvments shouild be more in the power to weight ratio
    and handling.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    kavaron said:
    The new M3 will rock us hard. 414hp and rwd will make it faster on track than a 997 carrera S. The Audi RS4 is already faster on most tracks than the Porsche. Check the Ring laptimes for example
    http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html



    There is no lap time for the RS4 listed there but every test I've seen has placed the Porsche faster. I really don't see how an additional 60 horsepower is going to make it substantially if at all faster considering the new M3 will weigh 400 pounds more than the Porsche.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Lots of good posts in this thread. I'm a long time BMW customer, was pretty hard core about the marque, and still own several. What will make the M3 a great car is its price and chassis. The power will be just fine, but folks are getting too hung up on it. The new E92 chassis is really the gem of the new BMWs, and represents a notable step up from the E36/E46 layout. It also does a great job masking the car's weight.

    However, this car is not a ground up sports car.

    BMW publishes 3500lbs, any bets on what it will come in on the scales, wet, in the real world? Let's try 3650. That weight plus BMW's exceedingly crappy single piston floating brakes with undersized rotors and it will be a pig on the track, but a fast one for a few laps. Just like the RS4.

    Once people start taking weight out of the car and optimizing suspension and upgrading brakes, we'll see some truly fast cars at the local tracks. But, these cars will be frankencars, not something I'm interested in.

    The premium we pay for 911s is for a car that is far better sorted for track days right off the showroom floor, for a car that is lower production, and for a feel behind the wheel that no other car has matched, including Ferrari IMO.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    We'd all welcome a bit more power but the enemy is weight as you say, frayed. Good times for more than a lap or two depend on how much weight they can get out and how long the tyres hold out in my experience.

    Legislation, crash safety and cost mean that all modern cars weigh more and more so it'd be nice if Porsche would do a bit more to take out some more weight without us having to pay RS money!

    The premium for Porsche is justified IMHO but the gap is narrower now and Porsche need to do more to open it again.

    The new M3 looks like good VFM for what it is and no doubt it will be a good drive. But over the longer term of ownership I reckon a Porsche will prove more durable when driven hard regularly.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    john999s said:
    We'd all welcome a bit more power but the enemy is weight as you say, frayed. Good times for more than a lap or two depend on how much weight they can get out and how long the tyres hold out in my experience.

    Legislation, crash safety and cost mean that all modern cars weigh more and more so it'd be nice if Porsche would do a bit more to take out some more weight without us having to pay RS money!

    The premium for Porsche is justified IMHO but the gap is narrower now and Porsche need to do more to open it again.

    The new M3 looks like good VFM for what it is and no doubt it will be a good drive. But over the longer term of ownership I reckon a Porsche will prove more durable when driven hard regularly.



    Agreed

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    come on guys...

    They are all good cars... If we were rich enough, we will be buying all types of cars... Just because we are all suckers and the car manufacturers would want us to keep changing cars every year...

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    BMW has to try to wow with HP. After all they are sedans and need everything going for them

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    I have to preface every statement with the obvious: I love Porsches! Okay, now some cold hard facts; the M3's power to weight will be better than the (facelifted 375 hp) 997S, even though it will weigh -roughly- less than 300 lbs more, not 400. The brakes, although not up to Porsche standards are not really that small, unless you consider 14.1 inches small; the engine and resale speak for themselves.
    I do agree that HP is not everything, but who here is going to say no to more ponies.

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    Quote:
    devo said:The brakes, although not up to Porsche standards are not really that small, unless you consider 14.1 inches small;


    You must take into account that the BMW has close to 80% of its (greater) weight on the front tires (dynamically) under braking, so that puts huge heat into the front brakes.

    The 911 has less than 60% of its (lower) weight on the fronts, so braking force is much better shared among the 4 brake discs.

    Also, the Brembo calipers are FAR superior to the 1-piston units on the BMW...

    Re: 420hp & 8400rpm redline.

    H.P. to weight ratio is what really matters... And then you've got to get the power to the ground effectively.

    Alot of these mega-power Germans coming out are having to electronically eliminate the driver to keep the cars between the lines in 1st & 2nd gear. I recently read regarding the upcoming uber-Z06 that engineers were having to ADD weight to the rear, and then ballast elsewhere to achieve both traction and balance objectives. It really is getting a bit over-the-top, where compromises of totally superflous weight are being done just to be able to publish astronomically high h.p. figures, and make gearheads drool...

    Fact is, that many of these ungodly-strong cars don't "feel" as fast as they are, due to the weight, the refinements, and the electronics... I could take you on a 1/4 mile blast in my stroked 494 c.i. 1969 Boss 429, and you'd swear it was the space shuttle, with your fingernails digging into the bottom of the seat cushion hanging on as the car howls, smokes the polyglass tires, and wags its tail through all four gears... Of course, you aren't getting to the end of the track any quicker than an AMG sedan, but the experience is far more spine-tingling and adrenaline-pumping in comparison...

    When you think about it, it's the "experience" that draws us toward Porsche products. Whatever the h.p. figures may be, behind the wheel, the car makes you smile. I too wish that I had more power to play with, I wish my car had enough power that I could get "loose" with the throttle when I want to be playful.... But whether it's got 355 h.p. or 555 h.p., the WEIGHT of the sucker mitigates that figure, and the only thing in the end that matters is that I FEEL the excitement out on the road, without any electronic nannies dialing-back my right foot...

    The term "scary-fast" is something I really go for. A car that has the abilities to not just optimize its setup, but has 10% more at W.O.T. that gives you the power to overcome your chassis... Purists may sniff at such a notion, but that's where the fun begins, and you have the feeling that you're taming a man-eating beast, rather than just going on a Disney ride. I love that extra bit of edginess, a little dose of obscenity.

    My 997 pleases by the way it involves me and communicates, but it's a tame kitten in the category of obscenity. Thank goodness I've got a couple other rides that, while not much faster than the 997, are far CRAZIER to keep a leash on. Fun stuff, very fun, and just a different way of getting your kicks. It's ALL good in my view!!

     
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