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Feb 23, 2008 11:18:39 AM
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MKSGR
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Feb 23, 2008 12:19:07 PM
- Alex_997TT
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- Reply to: KF
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec.
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
Interesting; where did you get your numbers from can I ask?
BTW, I am getting the CG 544bhp 800Nm powerkit, and it isn't costing half of what you quoted above! Perhaps that is with the Bilstein Sports Suspension also.
Feb 23, 2008 4:37:53 PM
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MKSGR
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- Reply to: Alex_997TT
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
Alex_ said:Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec.
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
Interesting; where did you get your numbers from can I ask?
BTW, I am getting the CG 544bhp 800Nm powerkit, and it isn't costing half of what you quoted above! Perhaps that is with the Bilstein Sports Suspension also.
The numbers KF posted above are taken from the same issue of SportAuto and include suspension modifications.
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec.
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
BTW: I am pretty sure the test car had more than the claimed hp. Just compare the 0-200 time to the 0-200 time of the Rt12 (9.9s with approx. 700hp).
Customers can only hope they receive the same engine as SportAuto... Chances are low however.
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
BTW: I am pretty sure the test car had more than the claimed hp. Just compare the 0-200 time to the 0-200 time of the Rt12 (9.9s with approx. 700hp).
Customers can only hope they receive the same engine as SportAuto... Chances are low however.
Does 100-200 in 7.1s not seem reasonable for 800NM/1550kg - the torque curve on this package is insane generating 540hp from 5250rpm !
The RT12 did 100-200 in 6.3s - a big difference at these leveles
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
BTW: I am pretty sure the test car had more than the claimed hp. Just compare the 0-200 time to the 0-200 time of the Rt12 (9.9s with approx. 700hp).
Customers can only hope they receive the same engine as SportAuto... Chances are low however.
Does 100-200 in 7.1s not seem reasonable for 800NM/1550kg - the torque curve on this package is insane generating 540hp from 5250rpm !
The RT12 did 100-200 in 6.3s - a big difference at these leveles
Yes, also reflected in the 0-300 km/h times. The Rt12 will be close to 10 seconds faster.
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KF said:
For comparsion:
Cargraphic Turbo with 540 hp did 1.10,3 min and from 0-100 km/h 3,3secs. To 200 km/h only 10,4 sec
Costs for tuning round about Euro 14.800 incl. 19% VAT.
BTW: I am pretty sure the test car had more than the claimed hp. Just compare the 0-200 time to the 0-200 time of the Rt12 (9.9s with approx. 700hp).
Customers can only hope they receive the same engine as SportAuto... Chances are low however.
Does 100-200 in 7.1s not seem reasonable for 800NM/1550kg - the torque curve on this package is insane generating 540hp from 5250rpm !
The RT12 did 100-200 in 6.3s - a big difference at these leveles
Still not convinced... The GT2 (with 530hp, 100kg less) does 100-200 in 7.7s. A heavier 997TT needs more than just an additional 10hp to match or even better the GT2 performance by 0.6s!
Your numbers support this: as you calculated the Rt12 with ca. 700hp would be just 0.8s faster than the Cargraphic with an additional 150hp...
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Still not convinced... The GT2 (with 530hp, 100kg less) does 100-200 in 7.7s. A heavier 997TT needs more than just an additional 10hp to match or even better the GT2 performance by 0.6s!
Your numbers support this: as you calculated the Rt12 with ca. 700hp would be just 0.8s faster than the Cargraphic with an additional 150hp...
Its in the torque curve - the GT2 has 475hp by 5000rpm, where the CG544 has 510hp and at 5500 the GT2 has 510 where the CG544 has near 540....
Changing gear and running up the power curve, the CG544 car has more than the peak power advantage....
BTW FWIW Porsche quote 7.5s for the GT2 100-200
Feb 25, 2008 1:31:55 PM
- Alex_997TT
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- Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
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Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Yeh, the 800Nm torque compared to 680Nm for both the Turbo and the GT2 is a huge gulf. Interesting that the next CG powerkit up (kit3), the 600bhp one, only has another 10Nm toque (810Nm) over the 544bhp kit.
Kit3: > CG Powerkit link
BTW, not confirmed by CG themselves yet (waiting on this) but initially looks like the CG car had the following options fitted:
* CarGraphic / Rs-Tuning ECU map and exhaust including manifolds
* Bilstein Pss9 suspension with front carbon strut brace
* Front Aero Lip PU
* Carbon Rear Wing
* Short Shift Kit
* CarGraphic Racing 19" wheels,
* Pagid brake pads and steel braided hoses
Kit3: > CG Powerkit link
BTW, not confirmed by CG themselves yet (waiting on this) but initially looks like the CG car had the following options fitted:
* CarGraphic / Rs-Tuning ECU map and exhaust including manifolds
* Bilstein Pss9 suspension with front carbon strut brace
* Front Aero Lip PU
* Carbon Rear Wing
* Short Shift Kit
* CarGraphic Racing 19" wheels,
* Pagid brake pads and steel braided hoses
Feb 25, 2008 1:57:27 PM
- TB993tt
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- Loc: manchester , United Kingdom
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- Reply to: Alex_997TT
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
Alex_ said:
Yeh, the 800Nm torque compared to 680Nm for both the Turbo and the GT2 is a huge gulf. Interesting that the next CG powerkit up (kit3), the 600bhp one, only has another 10Nm toque (810Nm) over the 544bhp kit.
You will notice that even the 80K Euro 680hp kit has "only" 867NM...
I think one of the reasons is that over 800NM (real engine dyno torque, not the stuff measured on chassis dynos) level gearboxes start to break, not to mention clutches (you have been warned Alex
)I have been running over 750 real NM (in a 993tt) for ~40K miles now, road use only and have had 2 major gearbox rebuilds......
A friend who has a 993GT2 race car with RS engine ~840NM breaks his 3rd gears with such regularity that he will often bypass third and go straight to fourth during endurance races !
Feb 25, 2008 2:11:51 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
I notice that the Kit3 (810Nm) comes with a 810Nm Sports Pressure plate:
I have been told though that CG have done a lot of kit2 installs and never had a problem with people's stock clutches, which the kit was designed to work with.
How long the stock clutch will last though is another question....
I have been told though that CG have done a lot of kit2 installs and never had a problem with people's stock clutches, which the kit was designed to work with.
How long the stock clutch will last though is another question....
Feb 25, 2008 2:28:15 PM
- TB993tt
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- Reply to: Alex_997TT
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
Alex_ said:
I have been told though that CG have done a lot of kit2 installs and never had a problem with people's stock clutches, which the kit was designed to work with.
How long the stock clutch will last though is another question....
Interesting - Maybe its the low revs at which the peak is achieved makes it easier on the clutch
I have the cluch kit you pictured (on 993tt) and will occasionally get slip if I overboost at 4500rpm with around 800NM - I feel it is the suddeness of the torque delivery which causes the slip, maybe the tuned 997tt is more linear and smoother...... we shall see
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Still not convinced... The GT2 (with 530hp, 100kg less) does 100-200 in 7.7s. A heavier 997TT needs more than just an additional 10hp to match or even better the GT2 performance by 0.6s!
Your numbers support this: as you calculated the Rt12 with ca. 700hp would be just 0.8s faster than the Cargraphic with an additional 150hp...
Its in the torque curve - the GT2 has 475hp by 5000rpm, where the CG544 has 510hp and at 5500 the GT2 has 510 where the CG544 has near 540....
Changing gear and running up the power curve, the CG544 car has more than the peak power advantage....
BTW FWIW Porsche quote 7.5s for the GT2 100-200
Hmmm... And how should the relative performance to the Rt12 fit into this?
(You see, I am not easy to convince
)
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
TB993tt said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Still not convinced... The GT2 (with 530hp, 100kg less) does 100-200 in 7.7s. A heavier 997TT needs more than just an additional 10hp to match or even better the GT2 performance by 0.6s!
Your numbers support this: as you calculated the Rt12 with ca. 700hp would be just 0.8s faster than the Cargraphic with an additional 150hp...
Its in the torque curve - the GT2 has 475hp by 5000rpm, where the CG544 has 510hp and at 5500 the GT2 has 510 where the CG544 has near 540....
Changing gear and running up the power curve, the CG544 car has more than the peak power advantage....
BTW FWIW Porsche quote 7.5s for the GT2 100-200
Hmmm... And how should the relative performance to the Rt12 fit into this?
(You see, I am not easy to convince
Some numbers to illustrate:
Rt12:
hp @ 5000/min: 575
hp @ 5500/min: 600
100-200: 6.3s
CGR (based on your above hp data):
hp @ 5000/min: 510
hp @ 5500/min: 540
100-200: 7.1s
GT2 (based on your above hp data):
hp @ 5000/min: 475
hp @ 5500/min: 510
100-200: 7.7s
If you compare the hp and performance delta between GT2 and CGR as well as between Rt12 and CGR the numbers just don't fit. Don't you agree...
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Hmmm... And how should the relative performance to the Rt12 fit into this?
(You see, I am not easy to convince
Some numbers to illustrate:
Rt12:
hp @ 5000/min: 575
hp @ 5500/min: 600
100-200: 6.3s
CGR (based on your above hp data):
hp @ 5000/min: 510
hp @ 5500/min: 540
100-200: 7.1s
GT2 (based on your above hp data):
hp @ 5000/min: 475
hp @ 5500/min: 510
100-200: 7.7s
If you compare the hp and performance delta between GT2 and CGR as well as between Rt12 and CGR the numbers just don't fit. Don't you agree...
OK, can we forget the RT12 for a minute since at 6.3s is is MUCH faster than these other two and surely represents a ~1600kg,4WD with a real 650hp
Looking at the two tests GT2 versus CG544
The GT2 was tested air temp 17degc Asphault 26 degc
CG544 air temp 13degc asphault 15degc
Air press was very similar..
So an unknown benefit for the CG544 car with the lower temperatures giving higher than DIN hp for that test.
The GT2 actually weighed 1497kg for that test so only actually 53kg lighter than the CG544....
Gearing.....
This is what I think makes quite a difference, the GT2 does 220kph in 4th gear and the 200kph is achieved at 6000rpm where the engine produces about 520hp...
The CG544 achieves 205kph in 4th gear with 200kph being achieved at 6500rpm so the full force of the 544hp power curve is utilised during the 4th gear portion of the run.....
Taking these things together, would this persuade you
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:
OK, can we forget the RT12 for a minute since at 6.3s is is MUCH faster than these other two and surely represents a ~1600kg,4WD with a real 650hp
Well, the Rt12 test car had close to 700hp (this information is highly reliable...). Also, the weight is nearly identical to the CGR (just 20kg difference). Both cars have AWD...
The CGR has a shorter gearing. However, for 100-200 this will not make a significant difference: the Rt12 (for example) is supposed to deliver identical 0-200 times with the shorter 997TT gearing (factory info).
Also, the difference in the above 100-200 times between Rt12 and CGR (.8s) is nearly identical to the delta between CGR and GT2 (.6s).
My conclusion: the CGR car had far more than 544hp
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Also, the difference in the above 100-200 times between Rt12 and CGR (.8s) is nearly identical to the delta between CGR and GT2 (.6s).
My conclusion: the CGR car had far more than 544hp
From the many many 100-200kph times which I have tested personally and the mass of information available over the years I would say the 7.1s fits about right for a 1550kg,4WD ,997tt with a proper RS Tuning turbo power curve with ~550 peak hp.
Ruf power curves and numbers are not interchangeable with RS ones IMO.
Getting near to the 6 second mark requires a lot more power, 650+ with 4WD/1550kg. With 2WD/1550kg ~620hp will get near 6s.....
(all the above for 911s with 2 gear changes and 2 passengers)
Fun to discuss and predict this stuff, hopefully Alex can indulge us with some GPS numbers when he has his 544 kit fitted, and I will prepare for some humble pie
For fun, guess the stats for the run below:
I give you for free: Running weight 1470kg, flat surface, 993tt Cda 0.69.
2WD/4WD ?
Outside temp ?
peak HP ?
Feb 25, 2008 6:57:48 PM
- Alex_997TT
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- Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
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- Reply to: TB993tt
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:
Fun to discuss and predict this stuff, hopefully Alex can indulge us with some GPS numbers when he has his 544 kit fitted, and I will prepare for some humble pie
Great; so the pressure is on me now to go out buy a Performance Box (with external antenna), find an empty air-field somewhere and try to break my clutch with some fast runs
In the list of fitted CG options on the test car I spotted the intake manifolds were upgraded too - that would have added a few more horses. From what CG have told me the Manifold Headers yield at least +10bhp and +10Nm.
I think I am going to just stick with the Powerkit 2 and Parr's own 'Fast-Road' geometry set-up for now.
Later, I may add some Bilstein Coilovers (Pounds3700 fitted), Lowering Springs (Pounds1400 fitted), Manifold Headers (Pounds1250 fitted), Clutch and flywheel (Pounds2000 fitted), and an IPD Plenum (Pounds1000 fitted). But frankly I will be well into GT2 money by then (given I optioned out my car to start with) so I might leave it for a bit. It's not like I absolutely *need* any of these extras
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Also, the difference in the above 100-200 times between Rt12 and CGR (.8s) is nearly identical to the delta between CGR and GT2 (.6s).
My conclusion: the CGR car had far more than 544hp
From the many many 100-200kph times which I have tested personally and the mass of information available over the years I would say the 7.1s fits about right for a 1550kg,4WD ,997tt with a proper RS Tuning turbo power curve with ~550 peak hp.
Ruf power curves and numbers are not interchangeable with RS ones IMO.
Getting near to the 6 second mark requires a lot more power, 650+ with 4WD/1550kg. With 2WD/1550kg ~620hp will get near 6s.....
(all the above for 911s with 2 gear changes and 2 passengers)
There is no way a stage 2 997TT(ECU/exhaust) is going to run 100-200 in 7.1 with 2 passengers regardless of tuner, sorry
. if it does, then either it is not making 550hp (real or fake), or the passenger is a cartoon character .
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
TB993tt said:
What about the Speedart offering - claimed 600hp/800NM and 104kg heavier than the CG544 car - it did 100-200 in 7.3s !!
Is that also not possible ? Speedart are also mis-stating their hp numbers
Look, a stock manual TT with no passenger needs almost 9 seconds 100-200, adding 65(real) hp is not going to get you 7.1s especially with a passenger on board
.
Re: Sportauto confirms HHR time of GT2
Quote:
HLisk said:
With all this information the question still remains should I buy a GT2 or look for something faster?
Personally, I think the GT2 is a good compromise: Gives you lots of power at a fairly reasonable price/depreciation (even if driven for 25-30k kms per year as in my case).
If you need more power I would strongly reccommend Ruf's Rt12. The car outperforms nearly everything, has perfect daily driver qualities and is pure understatement. A great car
From a 540hp kit (let it be Cargraphic or Ruf) I would expect GT2 acceleration performance (in every speed range). However, the GT2 would still be the superior track car for just a little bit more money...
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