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    Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    For some time now, I'm trying to find a logical explenation why the two 997 Carrera (one manual and one with Tiptronic) felt more powerful than my current 997 Carrera S.
    Today I had a 997 Carrera S manual with PASM and standard brake instead and this time I was able to compare it much better to my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm suspension/LSD and PCCB brake option. I was pretty surprised to learn that even with chrono sport activated, the 997 Carrera S feels different regarding throttle response and power feel compared to my 997 Carrera S.
    I also tried to compare the PASM setup much better and of course handling, steering, etc.

    Here are my findings, they might be still subjective but here we go:

    1. forget everything you read about my 997 Carrera S in the Rennteam.com testdrive review if you are interested in a 997 Carrera S with PASM
    2. the PASM equipped car feels a bit stiffer on very bumpy roads but it also is less forgiving on such roads, reminding the driver of a compromise, a good one but still a compromise. With changing damper settings, you can't get the perfect comfort setup in the stiffest setting and my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm suspension is definetely slightly more comfortable when the road is very bumpy. Again: only if the PASM sport setting is active!
    3. Surprise, surprise: not only does the suspension feel different, the steering feels different too. The steering of the PASM equipped car is less "sensitive", it is much easier to control at higher speeds, especially in high speed curves. Which leads me to the suspicion that the 20 mm chassis equipped car not only just has different dampers and springs but some other suspension mods too. Of course the swaybar makes a difference too and the lower ride but there seems to be more to it.
    4. the 20 mm chassis equipped car feels lighter and more dynamic in curves, maybe because the steering seems to feel lighter and more sensitive too. I can't explain it but this is what I feel. Also steering in is much easier, more precise and handling is different more dynamic. It is hard to explain, you have to experience it. My guess is that not only the 20 mm suspension has a pretty dynamic setup but also the limited slip differential seems to have a great influence upon handling performance and drive feel.
    5. the biggest surprise is actually the chrono sport package: with activated chrono sport, the PASM equipped car and my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm suspension/LSD seem to have different chrono sport setups. With chrono sport "sport" function active, the PASM equipped of course feels different regarding throttle response compared to the "sport" function off setting BUT it feels less responsive than the chrono sport setup on my Carrera S with 20 mm chassis option.
    6. the difference in braking feel and reaction is almost "dramatic" compared to the PCCB brake. I experienced it with the 997 Carrera Tiptronic too but actually thought it had to do with the standard brake and didn't mention it.
    I hate to make this experience because it seems that I won't order a Porsche without PCCB anymore. If you have the chance to testdrive a car equipped with PCCB and a car equipped with the "standard" 997 S brake, DO IT. You'll have an experience you won't forget too fast.




    Again: all above points may be subjective and not really correct but this is my experience with both cars.
    Another possibility would be the fact that my car is one of a series of 200 first cars and the PASM equipped car has a much later production date.

    So maybe this is also the reason why my test review shows a somehow different experience than the one people had, who testdrove a PASM equipped car.

    I try to get a bit more information about the COMPLETE difference between PASM and 20 mm chassis option equipped cars because the experience from today really was a huge surprise for me.

    And another good advice: DO NOT order light interior colours on your 997. The PASM equipped 997 Carrera S I testdrove today has a very light leather colour and it disturbed my view and distracted attention all the time. It might be me who isn't used to such a light colour but to be honest, I would surely hate it. It really "takes" a bit of the attention regarding details surrounding you, making it somehow "dangerous". A black interior is much safer in my opinion, I actually never drove a light interior to experience what I experienced today. Shocking, honestly.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    RC, thanks for the info.

    In fact I could imagine Porsche set up the suspension for different needs, like you said a more dynamic and responsive version incl. the steering!
    The more cultivated you go, the less dramatic the car reacts. The understeering you experienced on the std. model could be for safety reasons (I recall W. Röhrl's justification regarding the understeer on the first GT3), expecting orders for the PCCB/20mm package seem to be expected by more sporty and experienced drivers!

    How much (if so) understeeer did you experience in the above mentioned vehicle?
    I would be happy if you could ask how much the reduced unsprung weight on the PCCB system improves handling / comfort. I get the feeling that this combo makes much more sense than selecting one of the items alone.

    Last question: what colour is this supposed to be?

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Thanks for this interesting report. I enjoy reading every of your posts.

    But It doesn't explain why the Carrera seems to be more powerful than the Carrera S, does it? Or do you mean because of different sport chrono settings??

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    RC, very interesting observations. I can't recall a car mag test of anything but a PASM-equipped 997S.....wonder if the mixed reviews of steering feel, esp near-center, are due to software variances/errors in PASM cars, esp as this is a new system for P.

    Your description of PCCB 2.0 seems to indicate P has really created a new state-of-art braking system ....as Turbo's steel brake system is tough benchmark to beat....

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    RC

    I have a 997S tiptronic on order. As I must have the tiptronic because of the driving I do, do you think I would be better off with the standard Carrera instead of the S? has anyone else compared the S tiptronic with the standard tiptronic?

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    RC, I can't understand your points. Is the S better with PASM or with 20mm/LSD option? S vs. non S better? PCCB better or turbo brakes?

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:

    But It doesn't explain why the Carrera seems to be more powerful than the Carrera S, does it? Or do you mean because of different sport chrono settings??



    That's what I thought too

    I've a light color and never had any problem with that, my previous car was a Boxster and the interior was black, and I didn't felt any dificulty with the new light color on the 996, I like it very much. Thanks for the report.

    J.Seven

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    You forgot to explain why the "S" feels slower than the normal Carrera...

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?



    Not sure whether direct links work, but let's see... .

    Considering the chart above it's a miracle how the S could possibly feel less powerful.
    Above the entire range it has more low end torque than the standard Carrera. Maybe it's due to the fact that the torque is more linear between 2500 -4000rpm on the Carrera whereas the S has a curve which flattens across this range.
    Do they have different gearing?

    RG TL

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    Seven said:
    But It doesn't explain why the Carrera seems to be more powerful than the Carrera S, does it? Or do you mean because of different sport chrono settings??





    The 997 Carrera didn't SEEM to be more powerful, it FELT more powerful because of the missing chrono sport package. To understand what I mean I suggest driving a 997 Carrera without chrono sport (or with the "sport" button OFF) and a 997 Carrera S with chrono sport "sport" button ON (this is actually my "standard" setting while driving).

    There is also another explenation: due to the shortened throttle way (when chrono sport "sport" button is ON) resulting in a much better throttle response, there is a strong tendency of driving the car always with a gear TOO HIGH instead of downshifting. This is because contrary to the situation when you drive in a TOO HIGH gear at low speeds, the engine feels like it would stall, the activated chrono sport throttle enhancement "covers" this feel pretty well and the engine doesn't feel it all to come even close to stalling. The negative side effect: you drive in 3rd gear at 30 kph and you want to get instant power by fully pressing the throttle. Of course the enhanced throttle reponse is great but it can't provide additional torque/power, so although you have the feeling of an instant throttle reponse even in the mentioned situation (3rd gear, 30 kph), the engine revs only slowly.

    So the chrono sport package somehow can mistakenly provide a false feeling, resulting in the wrong choice of gears at specific speeds. This is why I started to watch the rev figure all the time to try to stay above 4000 rpm. You have to get somehow used to it, I still love the chrono sport package but the "artificial" throttle enhancement actually is pretty confusing when you don't know exactly what is happening. It took me more than 4000 km and a few weeks to figure that out.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Is it possible some of the counterintuitive differences could be explained by the relative youth of all the vehicles tested? After all, most 997's will be far from broken in at this stage - in my experience a new Porsche needs at least 10,000 miles before it is anywhere near loosened up. Even comparing a vehicle with 100 miles with one that's done 1000 is probably unfair. I believe it's possible we could be seeing a combination of tight mechanics with over protective engine management software. Anyone agree? RC - what were the relative mileages on the vehicles you tested? (or km of course!)

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Looking at the graph of power output, you can see why the Carrera can feel subjectively more powerful than the S :

    997 : Output is 115NM @ 2,500 rpm, 185NM @ 4,000rpm
    997S : Output is 145NM @ 2,500 rpm, 200NM @ 4,000rpm

    The 997 has a 61% increase whereas the 997S has only a 38% increase over this rpm range.

    Therefore, subjectively the 997 may feel more responsive, even though the S is in fact more powerful.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Sorry to go a little OT, but can you let me know what color the exterior is? Midnight Blue?

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The 997 Carrera didn't SEEM to be more powerful, it FELT more powerful because of the missing chrono sport package...



    RC,
    The fact that the 997 had 18" wheels and the 997S had 19" (maybe heavier?), was that a factor?

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    Dubliner said:
    Looking at the graph of power output, you can see why the Carrera can feel subjectively more powerful than the S :

    997 : Output is 115NM @ 2,500 rpm, 185NM @ 4,000rpm
    997S : Output is 145NM @ 2,500 rpm, 200NM @ 4,000rpm

    The 997 has a 61% increase whereas the 997S has only a 38% increase over this rpm range.

    Therefore, subjectively the 997 may feel more responsive, even though the S is in fact more powerful.




    Nice work Dubliner!

    That's the way I was thinking it thru.






    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    Dubliner said:
    Looking at the graph of power output, you can see why the Carrera can feel subjectively more powerful than the S :

    997 : Output is 115NM @ 2,500 rpm, 185NM @ 4,000rpm
    997S : Output is 145NM @ 2,500 rpm, 200NM @ 4,000rpm

    The 997 has a 61% increase whereas the 997S has only a 38% increase over this rpm range.

    Therefore, subjectively the 997 may feel more responsive, even though the S is in fact more powerful.



    This is not correct, if you are talking torque you have to read the right scale i.e:
    997 : 295 Nm at 2500rpm to 370 Nm at 4000rpm
    997S : 325 Nm at 2500rpm to 380 Mm at 4000 rpm
    so the increase is not that much different. However the S do show a peak at 4500 rpm which might explain the subjective feeling...

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    RC,
    The fact that the 997 had 18" wheels and the 997S had 19" (maybe heavier?), was that a factor?



    You're kidding, right? BTW: my car has the PCCB brake, so even IF there would be a weight difference which could be felt, the PCCB would "compensate" that.

    Guys, before I start to confuse you more and more, I suggest the following: drive a 997 Carrera WITHOUT chrono sport package or with the chrono sport package sport button turned OFF. Then, immediately after this testdrive, drive a 997 Carrera S with chrono sport package and the sport button turned ON. This is the best way to understand what I try to say with my limited English skills.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    RC, your English is impecable!

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    GM has used the artificially boosted throttle response on it's mundane whheezy OHV V6 lumps of iron for years in it's domestic sedans. Off a stop light, the slightest throttle tip-in has the cars lunging across the intersection compared to any German car. Of course, pushing the throttle any deeper than 30% only produces agricultural sounds, not more power, but for the 90% of " grannies " who buy these cars, they feel like they are in command of more power/tq than an AMG sedan , LOL !

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    pnoble said:
    RC, your English is impecable!



    Pnoble - unfortunately, your English is not "impeccable"

    Just kidding with you,
    Grant

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    RC,
    The fact that the 997 had 18" wheels and the 997S had 19" (maybe heavier?), was that a factor?



    You're kidding, right? BTW: my car has the PCCB brake, so even IF there would be a weight difference which could be felt, the PCCB would "compensate" that.

    Guys, before I start to confuse you more and more, I suggest the following: drive a 997 Carrera WITHOUT chrono sport package or with the chrono sport package sport button turned OFF. Then, immediately after this testdrive, drive a 997 Carrera S with chrono sport package and the sport button turned ON. This is the best way to understand what I try to say with my limited English skills.



    RC, I've just learned that wrong tire pressure can make the 997S loose it's advantage over the 997 carrera. Maybe that's the problem. You should check that out. (maybe you did) Also, maybe the 997 had michelin tires and the 997s not. That could make a difference too.

    From what I've read on the 997s, the car is way faster when you go from 80 to 160 km/h or from 100 to 200 km/h. The 997s is actually faster than a 996 gt3 MK1 or the 996 with x51 package.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    .... but for the 90% of " grannies " who buy these cars, they feel like they are in command of more power/tq than an AMG sedan , LOL !



    90% of the "grannies" out there are more likely to use an AMC sedan than an AMG as their benchmark anyway!

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    amazon23 said:
    RC, I've just learned that wrong tire pressure can make the 997S loose it's advantage over the 997 carrera. Maybe that's the problem. You should check that out. (maybe you did) Also, maybe the 997 had michelin tires and the 997s not. That could make a difference too.

    From what I've read on the 997s, the car is way faster when you go from 80 to 160 km/h or from 100 to 200 km/h. The 997s is actually faster than a 996 gt3 MK1 or the 996 with x51 package.



    Of course the 997 Carrera S is faster than the Carrera and it is as fast as a 996 GT3 Mk1 and faster than the 996 with powerkit, there is no doubt about it. I was always talking about a subjective FEELING, not a fact. And as I wrote in this thread, I blame the chrono sport throttle mapping change for this feeling.

    Regarding the tire pressure: you won't find many Porsche drivers who are THAT anal as I am regarding tire pressure and tire choice. I ALWAYS go with Porsche recommendations and N-designated tires because of bad experiences in the past and because I heard a lot of negative stories from other people.

    My Carrera S has the Michelin Pilot Sport 2 N1 tires.
    Tire pressure is perfect, I always go by factory recommendations and this is actually the MINIMUM tire pressure which is recommended.
    The Michelin tires are very very good, sticky like glue. But they need temperature, best traction seems to be achieved when the outside temperature is ~ 20-30*C.
    Today we had 6*C and the tires were pretty slippery.
    But even at temperatures around 8-15* C, the tires perform pretty impressive IF they get hot and the needed temperature. The exhaust system mufflers do the best they can to heat up the tires, I'm not sure if this has been designed that way intentionally but after driving around 15-20 minutes more or less aggressively, the tires start to provide excellent grip.
    And I never experienced a car without ANY understeer, my 997 Carrera S is such a long time neutral and then starts to oversteer in a pretty well controllable way. But NO understeer at all, NOTHING. I just love it because my 996 Turbo always showed some understeer, even with the H&R coilover kit.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    .... but for the 90% of " grannies " who buy these cars, they feel like they are in command of more power/tq than an AMG sedan , LOL !



    90% of the "grannies" out there are more likely to use an AMC sedan than an AMG as their benchmark anyway!



    Actually, GM has known for years that for lazy non-enthusiast American drivers , how the car jumps off the line from a stop light is how they judge how powerful a car is . They will never in their ownership experience rev their engines with their quick upshifting automatic boxes over 3500 rpm. That's why GM could care less that these motors sound and feel horrible anywhere near redline as American driving conditions favor low rev TQ , not high rpm HP for the masses . It's purposely designed to " impress" ( fool ) on the around the block test drive.
    I'm sure we've all experienced how " sluggish " our MBZ or similar feel on throttle tip-in from a dead stop the first few times after having driven some pitiful Pontiac rental car on vacation.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    ...I'm sure we've all experienced how " sluggish " our MBZ or similar feel on throttle tip-in from a dead stop the first few times after having driven some pitiful Pontiac rental car on vacation.



    Funny! I actually find the MB's boxes quite fast from a dead stop - it is actually a safety issue not to over-emphasize the above mentioned characteristic as observed on GM cars!

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    ...I'm sure we've all experienced how " sluggish " our MBZ or similar feel on throttle tip-in from a dead stop the first few times after having driven some pitiful Pontiac rental car on vacation.



    Funny! I actually find the MB's boxes quite fast from a dead stop - it is actually a safety issue not to over-emphasize the above mentioned characteristic as observed on GM cars!



    The other thing GM " renta-wrecks " are known for is the calibration of their autoboxes - put in gear ,let off the gas , don't touch the throttle, and the car will basically take off down the street . Also, when you lift , coasting to a stop , you have to hit the brakes, as the car will maintain a lot of speed . Must be GM's way of improving gas mileage - car's that don't need gas pedals !!

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I also tried to compare the PASM setup much better and of course handling, steering, etc.

    Here are my findings, they might be still subjective but here we go:

    2. my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm suspension is definetely slightly more comfortable when the road is very bumpy. Again: only if the PASM sport setting is active!

    3. Surprise, surprise: not only does the suspension feel different, the steering feels different too. The steering of the PASM equipped car is less "sensitive", it is much easier to control at higher speeds, especially in high speed curves. Which leads me to the suspicion that the 20 mm chassis equipped car not only just has different dampers and springs but some other suspension mods too. Of course the swaybar makes a difference too and the lower ride but there seems to be more to it.

    4. the 20 mm chassis equipped car feels lighter and more dynamic in curves, maybe because the steering seems to feel lighter and more sensitive too. I can't explain it but this is what I feel. Also steering in is much easier, more precise and handling is different more dynamic. It is hard to explain, you have to experience it. My guess is that not only the 20 mm suspension has a pretty dynamic setup but also the limited slip differential seems to have a great influence upon handling performance and drive feel.




    RC, this is my first post over here, and I am delighted to read your thoughts above on -20 vs. PASM. Here in the US, -20 is not yet available, the reviews so far are with PASM, and there seems very little info on the -20.

    My first question is, do you prefer the -20 over PASM in Sport Mode for performance driving? Does the car feel more balanced, easier to drive under hard charging and attacking back country roads?

    You mention steering feel b/t the two setups; it almost sounds like the -20 steering is nervous compared to PASM. Is this right?

    When you say 'more dynamic', is this good or bad? One thing I really like about the 997S with PASM is the way the car felt so neutral, NOT obviously rear-engined, and turn-in was razor sharp, much better than my C4S. I'm hoping that the -20 option actually *improves* body control of the car.

    Thanks for your insight and great post. Any comments you have would be fantastic.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    BUMP.

    RC, any further thoughts on -20 vs. PASM. It's tough waiting for the -20 option in the US, as there is no indication from *anyone* on its availability, and from damping curves I've seen, it appears that PASM in sport mode might actually have superior body control.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    BUMP.

    RC, any further thoughts on -20 vs. PASM. It's tough waiting for the -20 option in the US, as there is no indication from *anyone* on its availability, and from damping curves I've seen, it appears that PASM in sport mode might actually have superior body control.



    PASM is surely a very nice alternative to the 20 mm option but I'm afraid it is not good enough to be as "good" as the 20 mm option, especially on the track. Also don't forget that there is also a limited slip differential coming along with the 20 mm suspension option, this LSD is worth gold, it works very very nice.

    The reason why people don't feel much difference between the 997 Carrera and 997 Carrera S regarding power seems to be the fact that, below 5500 rpm, the 997 Carrera S has only a power advantage of around 15 HP compared to the 997 Carrera. Add the additional weight and there isn't much left. This is also why it is so much fun to drive the 997 Carrera S above 5500 rpm but this also makes it somehow "lame" below 5500 rpm, at least compared to the 997 Carrera.

    Re: Reason found why Carrera S feels less powerful?

    Thanks RC.

    One follow-up question regarding PASM vs. -20:

    PASM is touted to continuously vary the damping curves in order to do things like limit dive under braking and squat under acceleration. Coming from a 996, when I drove the 997S, I was wowed by how buttoned down the S was, and attributed this to PASM. What I'm wondering is. . . is the -20 setup as resistant to dive and squat, and does it control the lump out back like as well as PASM? In this latter respect, the PASM cars I've driven (two of them) seem to control the rear engine weight with unbelievable poise, and I'm hoping the -20 does so even better.

    Gracias.

     
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