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    997 vs 997 s

    I know this is subjective and controversial subject; but is .02 seconds (0-60) in speed really significant for typical off track driving ? There is a lot of talk about how much better the 997s is compared to the 997. Does it not make more sense to take the $10,000 difference and use it to load up a 997 with: xenon, sport power seats, navigation, pasm, heated seats, bose sound, sport chrono, thicker steering wheel etc rather then have a stripped down 997 S ? I realize that the 997 comes standard with some of the upgrades I mentioned above but you are still paying around 7,000 for 35 horsepower. Another option is taking a base 997 and putting a supercharger kit in it by the dealer for $10000 which will add another 80-100 horsepower. The 997s just seems like a rip off for the 35 horsepower in performance. As for the brakes, my dealer told me that the breaks are fantastic in the 997 without red calipers and most people would not notice any difference, is this true ? I am not trying to be argumentative, just stimulate some conversation.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I had the same debate when I bought my C2s cab. I was considering getting just the C2 cab and adding all the options. If money is not too big of an issue, get the S. Because I really love the stainless steel quad exhaust. R u able to get the sport exhaust with this car? Because this is a must and does that include the short shifter? These two things I mention I feel definitely enhances the driving experience. I know 10 K is alot of money but in my mind, it's worth it. Plus you get the xenon lights, 19 inch sports rims (mine are setting in garage, got aftermarket rims), and power seats. These options add up to close to $4000. I thinks it's well worth the money. And in the end I'm really happy with what I got. Get what you really want. So you won't have any regrets.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I got a lightly used 997s instead. The 997s is better if you can swing the extra $. If not stay with the 997. I never even drove a 997. I knew that if I was gonna get one it would HAVE to be the S.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    997man said:
    Another option is taking a base 997 and putting a supercharger kit in it by the dealer for $10000 which will add another 80-100 horsepower.



    What dealer will install this supercharger kit and not void the warranty? You can find a 997S with low miles and all the options you can shake a stick at for less than a new 997.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    With Xenon's and 19" standard equip in the "S" car... it's now only about $7K for 30 more ponies, bigger/better brakes, adaptive suspension, quad exhaust, and the aluminum interior... quite a bargain if you ask me. Plus... if you load up a 997 with options... kiss that money good-bye come trade-in time... but if you spend the money on an "S" there is some residual there for you...
    just my .02

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    If you plan to get options like PASM, Bixenons, sports steering wheel, 19" wheels etc etc then the actual cost of the upgrade is really small.

    But I honestly think it's misguided to look upon this choice purely by comparing the specs you get for the money. Much more than that, it's about how the car feels to drive.

    The 3.8L engine is much more visceral IMO than the 3.6L unit. When you add Sport Chrono, the 3.8L engine is really impressive.

    Add an X51 powerkit (which can only be fitted to the S), the car moves up a whole new level.

    There's a reason why the S outsells the non-S by 9 to 1 in the UK.

    And if you think the price difference between the S and the non S is huge for only an extra 30hp, then have you thought what a chasm-like price difference there is between the non S 911 and the Boxster S which has only 30 hp less??

    The non S gets various things which you can't obtain as an option on the non S: the power boosted brakes from the 996TT. Bigger brake discs too. A high performance self-adjusting clutch.

    It was a no-brainer for me.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    If you're going to add Xenon, PASM and 19" wheels to your 997, the 997 S is going to end up being cheaper (unless you don't intend to sell the car within a reasonable time frame). 35 extra ponies basically for free never hurts in my book.

    Moreover, if you're coming from a 996, then definitely go for the S. Otherwise, you won't really feel like you upgraded, performance-wise.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Drive both and buy the one that you like best. Both are great cars and you will be happy. Now if you are the type of person who will always say "what if" then swing for the 997S. I bought a 997 vs a 997S because I wanted the Cab and to me the difference in the cars where not that great. Whatever way you go I'm sure you will be happy.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Here's my opinion; yeah it's worth merely us$.02 but the fun it generates is priceless.

    If you have the us$10K to blow, throw away, burn up, "waste," turn into toast then by all means get the S. It has extras which are well worth the money but not essential to extremely satisfying ownership endorphin production.

    As far as HP? I look at it this way (came to me in a flash one day).

    I was passing this smelly beater of a pickup truck on two lane rural highway with limited passing lanes. The mofo floored his ride to f me up. I decided to downshift and floor my S and was able to get in front of him "safely" even though my plans changed and the end of passing lane and blind curve got closer. So, in situations like that I justify, and am very glad to have, the maximum HP offered with the car.

    Go for it!


    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Here's my opinion; yeah it's worth merely us$.02 ...

    I was passing this smelly beater of a pickup truck on two lane rural highway with limited passing lanes. The mofo floored his ride to f me up. I decided to downshift and floor my S and was able to get in front of him "safely" even though my plans changed and the end of passing lane and blind curve got closer. So, in situations like that I justify, and am very glad to have, the maximum HP offered with the car.



    Was the smelly truck an S or non S? If the truck had 30 hp less then you'd be ok with the 997...unless you have the added weight of a passenger then you need the S.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    GA997S said:

    Was the smelly truck an S or non S? If the truck had 30 hp less then you'd be ok with the 997...unless you have the added weight of a passenger then you need the S.



    LOL. Good point.

    The truck/driver was definitely an "S" as in "POS."


    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    funny

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Well you can do the math yourself, because 60 MPH is 66 feet per second. Take the 0-60 time difference and multiply it by 66 for a rough distance in feet they'd be apart in a drag race. How useful that is in the real world is up to you.

    I think a very good case can be made for the base model + options, IF you have certain views about what one gets with the S. A number of people, including Paul Frere, prefer the 18s and normal suspension to the 19s and PASM. Drive both and see what you think.

    I've spent a day on each on the Autobahn back in October, and while the S does have more grunt, especially above 200 KPH, the base Carrera isn't a slouch by an means. Some Germans I spoke to think the base Carrera is quite adequate and the S is for someone who wishes to present a certain image. In the US, except for some quick squirts here and there, the difference is largely going to be academic. The base Carrera is going to be more than enough to get you in trouble with the revenuers. The perceived power gap to me is smaller between the Carrera S and Carrera versus the 987S/987 in either Boxster or Cayman guise.

    If you like the extras that come with the S, then it's a better value. If you prefer the other options mentioned, you're better off with the Carrera plus options. If budget is an issue, and I assume it is, and you're okay with 18s and no PASM, then the Carrera is the better value, you won't miss the extra power on the US streets, IMO.

    You can be sure PAG marketing designed the pricing very carefully, it's always more to get exactly what you want, unless you're quite well-heeled and in that case the extra $10K doesn't matter. Remember according to a 2001 white paper, the average household income for a 911 buyer is $280K/year, so $10K for an S is no big deal.

    My 2 cents, the adaptive sports seats, heated, are worth it for either car, as is springing for the Xenons in the base. Those are my musts, with a fall back to the electric seat if money is super tight (not enough lumbar for me without electric or ASSseats).

    In my opinion, I'd never buy a new car and stick a blower on it. The M96 engine isn't designed for that sort of thing, and you're going to reduce its service life doing that, not to mention voiding warranty. If you do want a boosted car, look at a used 996TT.

    For more help in deciding, here are two suggestions. Sign up for a 2 day PDE course at Birmingham, and you'll get to spend time in both cars (http://www.porschedriving.com) on the track, and really see under serious conditions the difference. Alternately, go on a PCA Treffen to Germany and specify your car to drive, it's a great time and you'll get a factory tour, http://www.fastlanetravel.com.

    HTH,

    Jim

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    The best advice is to drive both cars and make your own mind up. I actually prefer the base 997 to the S although I am in minority on that one. I found it felt just a bit lighter and I preferred the feel of 18s without PASM. It just feels like a very sweet package. I would never spec PASM on the 997 - then you might as well get the S.

    Again, most people would disagree with me so go out and test them for yourself!

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Read Chris Harris" column AT THE LIMIT on page 21 of the December issue of GT PORSCHE magazine.

    Everyone has their own reasons for buying whichever car suits them best. That's cool, but I for one don't think my reasons are necessarily the ones you should consider when making your choice. YOU ARE THE WORLDS GREATEST EXPERT ON YOU!

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Some, e.g. Chris Harris, say the 997 with PCCB is better than the 997S. He went as far as to say he bought the wrong car (997S) and should've bought a 997 base with PCCB after test driving a friend's.

    Personally I think it boils down to whether you want PASM or not. If you want PASM might as well get the S. Otherwise I woud get the base (but not necessarily with PCCB).


    David

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    Neil Schneider said:
    I got a lightly used 997s instead. The 997s is better if you can swing the extra $. If not stay with the 997. I never even drove a 997. I knew that if I was gonna get one it would HAVE to be the S.



    So if you never drove a base 997 how can you say the 997S is better? You bring up a good point, if you're the type that HAS to have the S, and will have regrets in 3 months if you don't, then absolutely spend the extra $10,000 for the S.

    David

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I really looked at the difference closely as I was putting together my spec. In the US, there's a $10,200 difference in base prices between the 977 and 977S. If you want all of the 997 options that the 997S gives you as standard equipment -- PASM, Xenon, 19" wheels, better steering wheel and added aluminum trim -- the difference falls to $3,650. For that amount you get the bigger engine and the better brakes. No brainer to me . . .

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    997S will likely always have a resale premium over the 997. It will shrink as the cars depreciate, but some premium will exist. It's not like you're throwing the entire $10,200 away.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I think even the 997S is underpowered so if you are concerned about power, which you should be in a 911, then the hp gain with an S is a good value compared to the X51. Then they throw in all those other cool options too.

    I've not had an opportunity to run 150+ mph as of yet but I feel more like I do now than I did before. Merry Christmas! Another drink please!

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    997man said:
    I know this is subjective and controversial subject; but is .02 seconds (0-60) in speed really significant for typical off track driving ? There is a lot of talk about how much better the 997s is compared to the 997. Does it not make more sense to take the $10,000 difference and use it to load up a 997 with: xenon, sport power seats, navigation, pasm, heated seats, bose sound, sport chrono, thicker steering wheel etc rather then have a stripped down 997 S ? I realize that the 997 comes standard with some of the upgrades I mentioned above but you are still paying around 7,000 for 35 horsepower. Another option is taking a base 997 and putting a supercharger kit in it by the dealer for $10000 which will add another 80-100 horsepower. The 997s just seems like a rip off for the 35 horsepower in performance. As for the brakes, my dealer told me that the breaks are fantastic in the 997 without red calipers and most people would not notice any difference, is this true ? I am not trying to be argumentative, just stimulate some conversation.



    1, 0-60mph for these cars are almost irrelevant, especially nowadays. 1/4 mile drag can easily represent the difference in acc btw entry level C2 and C2S. And the difference is huge.

    2, Apparently, C2 stands no chance against C2S on track.
    3, Base model C2 will need so many options to make it look like a proper 911 , C2S has more standard equipment.

    4, in 2-4 yrs, C2S will carry much better resale value.

    5, I believe a supercharger will completely destroy this wonderful NA masterpiece. But Americans just love supercharging their cars.

    6, Even my girlfriend said to me that 911 needs red calipers, yellow ones would be even better.

    For $10,000USD, I think C2S worth it.
    And I think you should trust me, because I don't own any C2S' at all.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I am obviously am in the minority in this group; I ordered the C2. I figure that this is my first Porsche. I also figure that this purchase in NOT a commitment. I, nor anyone else, has to keep the car a specified ammount of time. I am willing to make a mistake. I know that presently I don't know enough about the cars; I am and will be in for some time, learning about these cars. There are opinionated people in this group and any group for that matter. However my circumstances, yours, and everones' are different. These cars are sophisticated; a test drive is not going to convince me of anything; a weekend is not going to convince me. A test drive is like a going out on a date with a girl. How can you tell which girl is right for you until you spend enough time with her and get her in the sack a few times? A year or two of ownership is what I need. I won't know the answer to my question (C2/C2S) until I have have driven many miles. I figure that I will converse with others in this group during the learning process. I will form my own opinion. During the experiance, I will agree with some and not with others. I may end up reaching the opinon that I should have a Turbo or something else.

    Anyway, if I am content with the car (C2), I have saved $10K (not a small sum of money in my circumstance). If I am wrong, and want the Turbo, I have still saved $10K when I dump the car. If I am wrong and want the S, then in a few years I get the newer model. When I buy my next Porsche, if ever do, maybe I will have the knowledge and confidence to get the exact car. Until then, my C2 will look pretty nice to me sitting in my garage and my $10K will look pretty good sitting in my bank. Perhaps this $10K is the conception of my savings account for my next Porsche.

    Anyway, I may find out that i am really a "Poser". Then, I can run to wal-mart, spend $2 on a can of red paint and paint the brakes red. Maybe even buy a new badge that says Turbo, S, GT3 RS or whatever I think will most impress the other "posers"!!!

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Some, e.g. Chris Harris, say the 997 with PCCB is better than the 997S. He went as far as to say he bought the wrong car (997S) and should've bought a 997 base with PCCB after test driving a friend's.

    Personally I think it boils down to whether you want PASM or not. If you want PASM might as well get the S. Otherwise I woud get the base (but not necessarily with PCCB).


    David




    Yes, I read that article too.

    There's a key distinction to make though. Whilst it is arguable that a 997 with PCCBs makes for (possibly) a better package than a 997S with PASM, this is the more limited situation in North America only. Here in Europe (and I presume the rest of the World), with a 997S, we have the choice of a cost-free alternative suspension set up: -20mm sports suspension. So, in my view, the optimal set up is 997S with -20mm sports suspension. One could add PCCBs too (if one's budget allows).

    In Europe, adding -20mm sports suspension to a non S 997 costs the same as upgrading the 997 from its normal suspension to PASM.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I've driven both 997 C2 3.6 and 997 C2 3.8 without powerkit. My view is that the extra power and more importantly extra torque from the 3.8 is immediately noticeable on the road. If you are not in exactly the right gear driving at 9/10's all the time on the road the extra grunt of the bigger engine pays big dividends.

    However on the track the difference between 3.6 and 3.8 would be very narrow. As you are driving at 9/10s or 10/10s round the track both engines would be superb and the difference would be more down to your driving skill and whether you prefer the looser feel of the 18" wheels and taller tires (still very low profile tyres compared to most road cars) or the more racy feel of the 19" wheel tire combination.

    Finally there is the specification difference and pricing difference to be taken into account. If you want bigger wheels, xenons and a sporty steering wheel anyways then the larger brakes and extra torque, plus remember the higher resale value, should be decisive.

    From your question I'd imagine you'd spend most of your time of the road... like most of us. Personally I'd recommend the 3.8... but give both cars a try and see if you can experience some of the differences in steering and in gear responsiveness that I write about.

    PS. I've previously owned a Lotus Elise and that car is a great demonstration of the roadholding, comfort and great steering feel that you can get from a car that is shod with sensible wheels and tyres. I originally though that the C2S would be over wheeled but after trying 19"s with PASM I am amazed that a road car can hold the road so well and also be so comfortable to drive. But the conventionally sprung 18" car is also very, very good. Fair play to drivers with C2S with 19" and sports... a very, very nice car but to my taste for a road car slightly more biased to the track than I am looking for.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    I think this question is pretty easy. Since you have raised the question from the beginning you're apparently uncertain about your choise. Why buy such an expensive car and ge the chance of beeing not pleased when you get the 'non-S' car by keeping asking your self if you should have got the S.

    I have the S and my friend got the non-S and I've driven my friends car for comparison many times. There really is a noticable difference and it's a nobrainer to get the S. My friend regret his choice and is looking for an upgrade... That upgrade will cost him more than if he had got the S from the beginning

    Xenons, 19", aluminium details, alu-gauges, red calipers if not getting pccb, pasm or -20mm as a no-cost option, quad exhaust and the Carrera S badge on the engine-bay and entry-guards + the power and re-sale value are really enough arguments to cover the 10% extra cost :

    will full respect to all you who own a base carrera, I don't want to bash you and you have wonderful cars, but the only reason that I would buy a base C2 is if I found one on the second-hand market for a very good price if budget was an issue....

    Just my .02 and good luck with your purchase... You will of course be pleased whatever porsche you buy, but if you want that extra get the S S S S S

    /Lukas

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Just a few more facts:

    non S: front 318mm & rear 299mm brake discs
    S: front 330mm & rear 330mm brake discs (power boosted with larger pads from 996 Turbo)

    The non S does not have a Helmholtz Resonator. It is the device which creates a characteristic sound above 5000rpm. It is not the same as PSE.

    Lastly, I would warmly recommend you study the following graph carefully which comapres suspension set ups. It is an extract from the 997 'Product Information' guide written by PAG to train sales staff with product knowledge.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Just a few more facts:

    The non S does not have a Helmholtz Resonator. It is the device which creates a characteristic sound above 5000rpm. It is not the same as PSE.




    I love that sound. The car becomes totally different animal above 5000 rpm.

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Here is a diagram of the Helmholtz Resonator

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Hi easy_rider911

    Is it possible to keep that sound all the time?
    What is this resonator for??

    Re: 997 vs 997 s

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    ...study the following graph carefully...



    Nice graph. So the stiffest suspension setup is PASM Sport and the softest is PASM Normal. The 18's on the 997 probably feel close to PASM Normal w/ 19's.

     
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