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    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Thank you very much for sharing the experience RC - maybe it's an eye-opener for some guys
    I guess all the Grandpa comments may have come from young guys who are envious not to be your Grandchilds in reality -hence no chance to inherit Grandpa's TT some day
    Perhaps one aspect to add: the fat tyres of any P are a pain under these circumstances - any VW Polo with 185 tyres will do better
    Fat tyres + relative low weight of the car (compared to a truck ) + greasy or flooded road surface = surfboard.
    When it's pouring rain I always see lot of P-cars almost "hiding" at low speed behind big trucks on the Autobahn's slow lane for that reason (the heavy trucks with their fat tyres will push away the water on the street, so that the following P has a better chance to avoid aquaplaning).
    And yes, 5 km/h speed margin can make the difference between safe driving and loosing the car in such conditions.
    One should always remember that the tyres are the only connection of your car with the road (even for a 1 mn Euro Veyron). The human brain (if used ) always should kick in before PSM/TC etc.

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    Hookipa said:
    I'm a bit confused as well, I thought the main diff with winter tires was the temperature range. I don't think the extra deep profile would have benifits with rain.

    Meaning if you ever hit an oil patch, or maybe asfalt that's wet after a verry long dry period, it's over and out..



    I can drive much faster with winter tyres on when there is lots of rain on the highway.... The extra depth profile does help to not have aquaplaning.

    I wanted to put the Corsa on my daily car, but will not due to the tyre temperature needed in order to work properly and to the aquaplaning when heavy rain on highways

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    RC said:


    One of the young people heard that and with a pretty ironic tone in his voice he asked me "what have tires to do with that?". I explained to him the meaning of different tire mixtures and sizes/profiles and you know what this guy says to me? "This is BS, grandpa". I was ready to knock him down, my wife already saw my red face.

    After the lunch, we had a discussion with the trainer. She (of course ) asked me what I learned from this training. I told her that I learned not to be that fast and that I would never ever drive that fast in my car on snow/ice with summer tires. It happens again, some of the younger people look at me like I was telling them I just won the Nobel Prize. I continued to explain that the speeds used during the training are too high and that I would NEVER drive that fast on snow/ice with summer tires. This is why I always succeeded the exercises (a lot of people didn't, incl. my wife and her friend but my wife still wasn't bad at all) but at around 5 kph slowlier. The trainer told me to imagine that I would encounter such a situation in my car. Again I told her that this ain't possible because I wouldn't drive with a 997 Turbo and summer tires on a snowy/icey road. NEVER. She gave up.





    it's annoying to see how many ignorants are there around... as somebody once said: if stupidity would hurt the world would be full of screams....

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    On the other hand, if I saw a guy with a brand new 911 turbo, in a beginner's class driving education, and he could not keep his car under control, I would have second thoughts too. All a matter of perception. That does not take away the fact that those guys have been unnecesarily rude. Anyways, there are way worse nicknames than "Granps", aren't there? Thanks for sharing your experience RC! just let those hotshots be... in the end you know what happened, and you knwo how you and your car can perform... let those little ones think what they want. :b
    -Joost-

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    ...Fat tyres + relative low weight of the car (compared to a truck ) + greasy or flooded road surface = surfboard.
    When it's pouring rain I always see lot of P-cars almost "hiding" at low speed behind big trucks on the Autobahn's slow lane for that reason (the heavy trucks with their fat tyres will push away the water on the street, so that the following P has a better chance to avoid aquaplaning).
    ...


    The other cars in the event also had summer tires. They were handicap by the same condition except maybe they were not using Michelin tires?

    Michelin tires may have good dry performance but they suck when water is around. The other cars were limited by the same physics as the turbo.

    In conclusion, three possible causes:
    1) The driver sucked
    2) The car sucked
    3) The Michelin tires sucked.

    We all know that 1 & 2 were not the cause so change the tires to a different brand and presto...

    The Porsche Turbo that is 10 times more expensive than some of its fellow cars will now perform ten times better.

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    FelixC said:
    ...Fat tyres + relative low weight of the car (compared to a truck ) + greasy or flooded road surface = surfboard.
    When it's pouring rain I always see lot of P-cars almost "hiding" at low speed behind big trucks on the Autobahn's slow lane for that reason (the heavy trucks with their fat tyres will push away the water on the street, so that the following P has a better chance to avoid aquaplaning).
    ...


    The other cars in the event also had summer tires. They were handicap by the same condition except maybe they were not using Michelin tires?

    Michelin tires may have good dry performance but they suck when water is around. The other cars were limited by the same physics as the turbo.

    In conclusion, three possible causes:
    1) The driver sucked
    2) The car sucked
    3) The Michelin tires sucked.

    We all know that 1 & 2 were not the cause so change the tires to a different brand and presto...

    The Porsche Turbo that is 10 times more expensive than some of its fellow cars will now perform ten times better.



    Most other cars also had much narrower tyres (most cars never go over 185 or perhaps 205 at most), made from a different compound. Sports tyres are usually made with maximum grip in the dry in mind (different compound and thread), while performance in the wet is only secondary, at least with Michelin Pilot Sports.

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    On the other hand, if I saw a guy with a brand new 911 turbo, in a beginner's class driving education, and he could not keep his car under control, I would have second thoughts too.



    Agree, I would find that funny too if I was 18 and driving an old Golf

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    its not only the compound that makes a difference in winter/all season tires.

    These tires have more grooves for the water to go in, so the actual tread makes more contact to the ground. also, Winter/all season tires have thousands of "sipes" or little cuts in the tread block that summer/performance tires lack. these little cuts = thousands of tiny biting edges that gives more traction on a wet or snow covered surface.

    Summer performance tires have large, soft blocks of tread that are horrible at displacing water/snow and is the main cause of why performance tires are horrible in wet or winter conditions

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    Hookipa said:
    I'm a bit confused as well, I thought the main diff with winter tires was the teperature range. I don't think the extra deep profile would have benifits with rain.

    Meaning if you ever hit an oil patch, or maybe asfalt that's wet after a verry long dry period, it's over and out..



    The slippery surface used during the training was "simulating" a snowy/icey street (of course without the temperatures). The trainer told us that the excercises would have been a piece of cake at those speeds with winter tires. They had one case in the past, a very old car and the owner didn't change to summer tires because of money reasons. This old car outran all the others on this surface, leaving behind some pretty frustrated drivers of newer and modern cars.

    Yes, the mistake was to join this training in a Porsche but like I said, I wanted to provide "moral support" for my wife since she's never been to such an event. Next stop...Boxberg track. If my wife keeps her good faith up.

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    RC said:

    Yes, the mistake was to join this training in a Porsche but like I said, I wanted to provide "moral support" for my wife since she's never been to such an event. Next stop...Boxberg track. If my wife keeps her good faith up.



    BTW: how did your wife's 987 S and the 993 C4 perform
    I'm thinking about Boxberg also - only heard good things about it so far.

    Re: How to make an ass out of yourself in a 997 Turbo...

    Quote:
    RC said:


    And maybe I have also some advise for you guys now: forget about Cup tires for street usage. Even the standard tires can't cope with (VERY) slippery pavement, think about the problems you would encounter with Cup tires. Not worth it.



    I agree--the one time I drove home from the track in the rain on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Tires on my 996 Turbo, was truly a handful. I tried it because I was trying to avoid changing tires and wheels in the rain--after about 4 miles I pulled over and switched to the normal street tires. (Pzeros).

     
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