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    Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    I took my car (2005 997S - 4000mi) to the dealer about a week ago because of soot coming out only on the left tailpipe. The dealer reviewed the problem and indicated that there is a problem with cylinder no. 6. Because of the warranty, the dealer discussed the issue with porsche and are thinking of opening the engine to determine next steps (fixing existing engine vs engine change).

    I would appreciate advice on how members who had this problem managed the situation with dealer/porsche. tks,

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Heard of this one before..something about an oil separator? Don't know if it got completely replaced.

    Dan

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    WOW! Please keep in touch and let us (me) know what happens. Mine has the same problem. Pi**es me off because I got the "it'll be fine," BS without any explanation from dealer. BTW, this was the beginning of my loss of respect for Porsche. Then I found the following in Panorama:


    Here's the Panorama PCA tech comments to a question back in 2005:

    I'm getting heavy black soot on the right exhaust only. It's bad enough to coat that area of the body near the right exhaust pipes. I'm not noticing any smoke. I've broken the car in carefully. Oil consumption is exactly 1 QT/1000 miles. I've added 3.5 QTs in 3500 miles. Any recommendations or thoughts as to the cause?


    You might be using oil only in maybe one cylinder on the right bank and that is giving you the black soot on the exhaust. Wait until you have about 6000 miles on the engine and see if the soot goes away after the engine breaks in. If is doesn't, I would do a cyl leakage check on the right side. There might be a ring problem there

    Peter Smith - PCA WebSite - 8/8/2005

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Lorenzo, I'm sorry to hear about your engine troubles. I few months ago I had my engine replaced. However not due to your same problem, but to a problem that Porsche was not able to diagnose. As a result, after numerous "check engine light" episodes after the engine replacement, a bright technician did his homework and concluded that the problem was due to the fly wheel. Therefore,making the engine swap done in vein. Eitherway, my car was the "guinea pig" in regards to diagnosing this particular problem.

    In regards to your situation, I suggest reviewing your options in detail as much as possible with your service advisor, service manager, shop foreman, and other technicians. My dealership, although not very helpful in the service dept., does have some dedicated mechanics who gave me their personal phone numbers so that I could be kept in the loop. As for Porsche North America? They were more than accomodating to my situation and assured me that the engine swap would not affect the re-sale value of my car. All in all, my experience was long and painful. However, I have come to the understanding that these things happen, and although I told myself that I would back-off Porsches for a while, I simply cant. These cars are just too AWESOME to let something like this affect the reason why I drive them. In fact, I am in negotiations for a new one, I will post pics if I am successful. Best of luck Lorenzo, and if there's anything I can do, just PM me.

    cheers.
    Ray

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    1QT/1000 miles? That's equal to 0.9463 litres per 1000 miles.

    Just for your information (and comparison purposes), my car (997S) has used 700 mL of engine oil in around 4600 miles.

    Either you drive your car pretty hard (i.e. high revs alot) or you are consuming an above average level of engine oil due to some fault.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    @Easy

    FYI and comparison purposes as well please note that my C2S had consumed less than 1.0lt of engine oil at like 9.000 km which is approximately the figure of your unit. Following that I've consumed another 1.0 lt by 12.9k km.

    Any guess why?

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    1QT/1000 miles? That's equal to 0.9463 litres per 1000 miles.

    Just for your information (and comparison purposes), my car (997S) has used 700 mL of engine oil in around 4600 miles.

    Either you drive your car pretty hard (i.e. high revs alot) or you are consuming an above average level of engine oil due to some fault.



    I say don't worry too much. New engines consume alot of oil. matter of fact that's why Porsche puts the 4200 rpm limit on at first: so as NOT to alarm owners with the excessive oil consumption. (this breakin fact is stated in "Excellence").

    Here's what Renteamer "Jim48" said a while back (I hope I got his name right ):




    For my C2S, I have the following oil consumption statistics:

    1) the first 1716 miles, I added 650 ml, or about 0.7 quarts;

    2) by 2170 miles, or additional 454 miles, I had to add another 400 ml;

    3) by 2306 miles, or an additional 136 miles, I had to add another 200 ml;

    4) by 3067 miles, or additional 761 miles, I had to add another 200 ml.

    5) by 3615 miles, or an additional 548 miles, it looks like I have to add another 200 ml. (I went for a 200 mile drive today and was running the car between 3,000 - 4,000 rpm most of the time).

    That makes an estimated total oil consumption of 1,650 ml, or about 0.456 ml of oil consumption per mile traveled. From my data, it appears that oil consumption is declining as my mileage increases. I was told by a friend that it takes longer for the piston rings to seat properly when using synthetic oil. I'll see what its like when the car gets 5,000 miles on it.

    When I asked the dealer about oil consumption (at around 1800 miles), I was told that it was within the normal range.

    I polled some Rennteamers a few months ago on oil consumption and got about 10 responses. I got a mean consumption of .289 ml per mile. A rough rule is that you can be 95% sure that your oil consumption is normal if it is within two standard deviations of the mean measure. Based on the small sample response I got, that would place the confidence interval between 0 consumption and 0.555 ml per mile. If this is accurate, that puts my C2S's oil consumption within that interval and is normal.

    I'll check the responses on this posting and do some simple computations to see if these newer data significantly alter the results I cited above.


    I just incorporated the latest responses into the database I collected earlier from Rennteam members who responded to my May 1 post. Here are the results (I updated red911's data as he responded to my May 1 post).

    For those who probably don't drive their cars especially hard, the mean oil consumption is 0.273 ml per mile (or 0.171 ml per km). The standard deviation is 0.119 ml per mile (or 0.074 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal, based upon the 17 responses, it should be between 0 and 0.511 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.319 ml per km). Again, this is a crude number and the sample size is small, but it seems to make sense.

    For those who apparently drive their cars more aggressively (a sample size of only 5), the mean oil consumptin is 0.73 ml per mile (or 0.456 ml per km), with a standard deviation of 0.12 ml per mile (or 0.075 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal for an aggressive driver, it should be between 0 and 0.97 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.606 ml per km).

    One interesting additional point - it appears that the standard deviation is almost the same for the basic driving mode group and those who drive aggressively. So, aggressive driving increases oil consumption, but the spread around that higher mean level is the same as for those who don't drive aggressively.

    All of these results fit in with what my dealer had told me last April when I got concerned about oil consumption by my 911S. Basically, it's normal and it will likely decline considerably once the rings are fully seated, which takes longer for cars using synthetic oil.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    BTW, let's not hijack Lorenzo's thread. I'm also extremely very interested in this uneven soot problem.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Tks all for your support and comments. The dealer just informed me that they will have some more information by Monday afternoon.

    PS, the engine did consume a lot of oil. I had recently serviced the car, and 1000km after, I had to put and additional 2lts of oil to the engine

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    MMD,

    You have my name right.

    I just noted an interesting thing on my car. After the initial oil change at 5,392 miles, the oil level (when getting back from the dealer immediately after the oil change) showed that it was above the full line. I left it alone and didn't drain it. That was in early November of 2006. After a brief run yesterday morning (about 57 miles), I noted this morning that my oil level shows "full," not above full. This is at 7,111 miles, or 1,719 since my oil change. I noticed black soot in the left set of exhaust pipes (which I think exhaust the right bank of cylinders - right when looking at the car from the rear). I wonder if I have the same problem as Lorenzo?

    Jim

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Lorenzo said:


    PS, the engine did consume a lot of oil. I had recently serviced the car, and 1000km after, I had to put and additional 2lts of oil to the engine



    WOW!

    Keep us informed Lorenzo; and good luck!

    Hi Jim48! Gonna put your name on the file name of your excellent oil essay.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Jim, my car was consuming oil in excess. 2 weeks and 1,000 km after service, I had to add 2lts, because oil level was low.

    I took it back to service for inspection and they mentioned that the sparkplug from cylinder 6 was filthy with oil. The dealer thought maybe the sparkplug was not working properly, changed it, but smoke! continued to come out from the left tailpipes.

    I filed a complaint with porsche and expect news from them between tomorrrow and Monday. Hope this information helps.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    I also have some soot on one of the left two pipes. Specifically the one shown as CAPITAL "O" below.

    -oO------------oo--.

    I had more soot on that specific pipe when the car was new. The dealer said that was OK. Now I have 12000 miles on the car and I consume 200ml per ~2000 miles. The engine is perfect and I have decided to leave it alone. As a precaution, I will ask the dealer to test the engine before the warranty expires.

    I think it is unlikely that I have an engine problem as my oil consumption is normal. Also, I have noticed that my entire exhaust system is slightly tilted to the left, the side where I have soot. Does anyone with soot problem have a similar tilt (one really needs to look carefully to notice it)? Could that tilt be the problem? Would that make sense? No idea.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Yes, I've posted this exact problem before for my 2005 C2S. Your engine will most probably have scored bores. Your dealership will need to do an engine strip down to have a look. My engine was replaced because of this.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Ronnie said:
    Yes, I've posted this exact problem before for my 2005 C2S. Your engine will most probably have scored bores. Your dealership will need to do an engine strip down to have a look. My engine was replaced because of this.






    Without giving me any clues the dealership is telling me not to worry and just have a compression test done when the mileage gets over 6-7k.

    Well, sh*t, I'm worried. Then again a new engine at 7000 miles would be nice especially if the warrenty period starts from zero again.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    I posted some pics of my pipes (oo-er) on rennlist

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=301467&page=3&pp=15

    post number 38 and 44

    something to do with the engine piston rings and cylinders being scared. definitely something to sort out whilst you're still under waranty.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Here's the only pic that I have of my tailpipes. It is not the best picture, but can you see the difference?
    The dealer will have the full diagnosis on Thursday, I'll keep you posted.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Lorenzo said:
    Here's the only pic that I have of my tailpipes. It is not the best picture, but can you see the difference?
    The dealer will have the full diagnosis on Thursday, I'll keep you posted.



    That really suuuucks Lorenzo. Lately it's really pissiing me off that we have this problem (where's the frickin" Porsche Excellence" when you need it? Must have taken the day off when they tested our engines).

    |Good luck Thursday!


    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Lorenzo, you want to get that checked cause that's how I noticed my problem... at first, just a little soot and then more and more for one side compared to the other. My dealership (albeit a different branch) had one other 05 C2S with the same problem for an engine replacement just before mine.

    The soot on the tailpipe is a result of increase engine oil consumption which in my case was caused by the engine cylinders being scarred.

    I suspect a number of owners have this problem but don't realise as it's not something an OPC will check for unless you ask them to.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    I have read on the net that a porsche mechanic said that porsche engines use oil because this stops piston ring wear.

    He said that he could fit better rings to the engine but he said just dont expect it to last as long, so he said whats better checking the oil and topping up more often and having long engine life at the cost of oil, or having the total opposite.

    Obviously oil is cheaper than a new engine.

    Vw's can use upto 1Q per 1000 miles, my 200000 mile mk2 golf gti use to use 250ml per 90 mile 360 mile per litre

    Although i used maxlife for a while and i think that over sofened the seals, so when it was due for an oil change i used castrol magnatec as i got it cheaper.

    And it stopped using oil, and the sump also stopped leaking.

    It sat on the drive 6 month when the gearbox broke and i fired it up and it ran perfect no smoke as it did get slightly smokey puffs which you'd expect at 200000 miles.

    Dont all tail pipes get sooty anyway, as far as internal combustion engine mechnicals are concerned it would be normal to get a sooty or carboned tail pipe?

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Lorenzo said:
    Here's the only pic that I have of my tailpipes. It is not the best picture, but can you see the difference?
    The dealer will have the full diagnosis on Thursday, I'll keep you posted.



    Lorenzo, sorry for not responding to you sooner.

    My 911S did start using more oil again. I noticed it after a run last Friday afternoon. Maybe the oil has been consumed all along and been replaced by gasoline in the oil, as Porsche says in the owner's manual. My oil level is now at the full mark, whereas for nearly 2,000 miles it was registering just above the full level (it was at the full level just after the dealer changed the oil and filter). As I said before, I noticed soot in the left tail pipe, but not as much as what I see in your picture. In any case, this bears serious watching. I expect some oil consumption, but certainly not as much as on your car.

    I hope you get the problem corrected by Porsche as it is certainly under warranty.

    Jim

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Hi guys!

    First of all, I wanted to thank everybody in this forum, since it was because of posts here that I was able to detect the soot problem before the guarantee ran out.

    I also want to appologize for the radio silence on such issue and possible engine change and know that some of you are in a similar situation, but it has been a month and I have yet to receive news from the dealer and/or porsche. Things are so much slower than expected.

    I am thinking of writing a bomb letter to porsche management and see what happens, but before sending such letter, I would appreciate your comments on how you managed serious problems with dealership/porsche. Regards, L

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Lorenzo said:
    I [edited] know that some of you are in a similar situation, but it has been a month and I have yet to receive news from the dealer and/or porsche. Things are so much slower than expected.





    Hi Lorenzo,

    WOW, I'm speechless. You go in, your car is determined to be messed up, it is under warrenty: THEN they fix it _and_ soon, right?



    Porsche, if you're listening: JUST MAKE IT RIGHT! YOU sold the guy a car with a messed up engine: fix the !@#$%^& thing! "Excellence" is more than a BS advertising slogan, right?

    Anyway, I wish you well, got my fingers crossed, thanks for the update.
    Wow... .

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    I was under the impression that (at least US) dealerships were not permitted to do 'open surgery' on engines and had to send them back to PCNA/whatever

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    I was under the impression that (at least US) dealerships were not permitted to do 'open surgery' on engines and had to send them back to PCNA/whatever



    Yeah mee too. But apparently there's recent talk of them just replacing cylinders (in this thread?). I wouldn't settle for less than a "new" factory engine from Germany.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Makes you wonder how much they really test these vehicles before releasing them. I know its a fluke, but it makes for a big PITA...goodluck

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    As an update, I prepared and sent a letter to Porsche's President, CFO and Production Manager late night yesterday.

    I stated the engine's issue and complained about customer service. Early today, I received a call from Porsche informing me that they will replace my engine, I am not capable of determining if it was the letter or the fact that many days have past.

    The dealership soon after called to inform me more or less the same and that the engine would take 2/3 weeks to get to Mexico and then 3 days to put it into the car.

    Thanks all for the support and will keep informing until I receive my car again.

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    Lorenzo said:
    Early today, I received a call from Porsche informing me that they will replace my engine,





    Go to the dealership and explain that you want it done right, insist that the mechanic work on your car _exclusively_ until job is complete.

    Tell them you know that proper treatment of every part, every washer, every pin, every torque-spec, is essential to the way the car has been engineered and essential to your happiness and satisfaction.

    Give them the impression that you will personally inspect every inch of the work they do and will even test the torque of individual bolts to make sure the mechanic was doing his job without any lapse in "Excellence."



    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    i called newport auto ctr. in socal and described my sooty left tailpipes to my svc. advisor.. his reply was," no check engine light, no problem." not good enough for me. 7k miles on new engine. i'm getting a second opinion...

    Re: Soot left tailpipe - possible engine change

    Quote:
    bodysurfer said:
    i called newport auto ctr. in socal and described my sooty left tailpipes to my svc. advisor.. his reply was," no check engine light, no problem." not good enough for me. 7k miles on new engine. i'm getting a second opinion...



    Get a compression check. Insist on it. If they won't do it go to an independent shop (preferably one that supports Porsche Club of America) and have a compression check. Then take result to dealer and start b*tching.

    Here's a question from Panorama magazine Q&A tech section:

    ---------------------------------------------------


    I'm getting heavy black soot on the right exhaust only. It's bad enough to coat that area of the body near the right exhaust pipes. I'm not noticing any smoke. I've broken the car in carefully. Oil consumption is exactly 1 QT/1000 miles. I've added 3.5 QTs in 3500 miles. Any recommendations or thoughts as to the cause?


    You might be using oil only in maybe one cylinder on the right bank and that is giving you the black soot on the exhaust. Wait until you have about 6000 miles on the engine and see if the soot goes away after the engine breaks in. If is doesn't, I would do a cyl leakage check on the right side. There might be a ring problem there

    Peter Smith - PCA WebSite - 8/8/2005

     
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