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    Detroit review

    Just what do they think of the Boxster in Detroit?
    Take a guess.

    http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=19314

    Re: Detroit review

    So THAT's what the cup holders are for! Gosh those Porsche people think of everything.

    I suppose if they come to any other conclusion, they'd have been lynched.

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    Our own homegrown Chevrolet Corvette convertible, which was also redesigned for 2005, happens to be my personal favorite in the class. For $51,000, it will run rings around the Boxster and its foreign pals all day long.



    since when was the vette and boxster in the same class????
    man, these are same type of people that behind that motor trend article where the vette beat out the 2 porsche's

    Re: Detroit review

    Was that a review? I felt like looking at porsche's option list

    Re: Detroit review

    i just checked the options list for a USA car...and everything looked ok. i couldn't find the option for the nav system though

    Re: Detroit review

    They liked the car and praised it.

    But since they are not "Porsche centric," of course they are going to look at the price and shop.

    The Detroit area is not exactly known for its autobahn and nearby alpine passes either, and its streets could easily bend several sets of lightweight 19 inch wheels into pretzels every year. And if you have ever spent any evenings in downtown Detroit, you know that a car with lots of torque that can make fast getaways is a good idea

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    They liked the car and praised it.

    But since they are not "Porsche centric," of course they are going to look at the price and shop.

    The Detroit area is not exactly known for its autobahn and nearby alpine passes either, and its streets could easily bend several sets of lightweight 19 inch wheels into pretzels every year. And if you have ever spent any evenings in downtown Detroit, you know that a car with lots of torque that can make fast getaways is a good idea



    I've only been driving thru the outskirts of Detroit, but a Boxster wouldn't be my first choice in this city, that's for sure!
    Having said that, I really like this comment from the male reporter:
    "And the downside of that midship engine is that you have a constant buzz in your ear."
    Kinda says it all, dontcha think?
    He should probably stick to wobbly, american SUV's where you can hardly hear the engine, feel the road or control the car. LOL.

    His review was positive indeed in many ways, but there is something wrong about having a non-sportscar Joe test a sportscar.

    Re: Detroit review

    Btw Jim, is that a Weimaraner - the dog in your avatar?

    Re: Detroit review

    I suspect that the detroit car review guy always hears a ringing in his ears, one read of his wifes comments and nags
    about adjustable floor pedals and OB GYN cup holders (no pun intended) hints enough to tell who does the talking in that house


    Yes it is a Weimaraner. The last one was grey, this one turned out..... black!

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    sdy284 said:
    Quote:
    Our own homegrown Chevrolet Corvette convertible, which was also redesigned for 2005, happens to be my personal favorite in the class. For $51,000, it will run rings around the Boxster and its foreign pals all day long.



    since when was the vette and boxster in the same class????
    man, these are same type of people that behind that motor trend article where the vette beat out the 2 porsche's



    For once we agree. The Corvette belongs in the same class as the 911. The Boxster (I love the car)belongs in a lower class like the Honda 2000 and the 360Z. They needed to treat the Boxster more fairly.

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    sdy284 said:
    Quote:
    Our own homegrown Chevrolet Corvette convertible, which was also redesigned for 2005, happens to be my personal favorite in the class. For $51,000, it will run rings around the Boxster and its foreign pals all day long.



    since when was the vette and boxster in the same class????
    man, these are same type of people that behind that motor trend article where the vette beat out the 2 porsche's



    For once we agree. The Corvette belongs in the same class as the 911. The Boxster (I love the car)belongs in a lower class like the Honda 2000 and the 360Z. They needed to treat the Boxster more fairly.



    If thats the case, then the Z06 is the real competitor for the F430 http://www.corvettesbyrickdaniel.com/C6Z06INFO.html

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    sdy284 said:
    Quote:
    Our own homegrown Chevrolet Corvette convertible, which was also redesigned for 2005, happens to be my personal favorite in the class. For $51,000, it will run rings around the Boxster and its foreign pals all day long.



    Those rings...those would be donuts.
    That and quartermile drags in front of Joe Sixpack and friends is about all american sportscars are good at.

    I respect your view. I just see things differently.
    The difference between the European sports cars (such as F's and P's) and the american counterparts (like the Vette and Ford GT) is like the difference between a can of Budweiser and a glass of Dom Perignon 52: Crude, butch and more focus on effect than taste versus refined and tasteful.

    American car producers make great cruisers, luxury cars and huge SUVs and very fast and muscular sports cars.
    But words like "classy", "subtle" and "refined" haven't made their way into the vocabulary of said producers.

    I, too, am fascinated by Vettes, Ford GT, Shelbys and what have you, but I wouldn't call any of them a real sportscar.
    On the straights they kick butt, but as soon as they meet a corner they're usually FUBARed.
    And it is indeed pretty annoying in the long run, not being able to take fast corners with your new musclecar.
    I know the Vette has been improved a lot, but it's still a cruiser for pumped up bodybuilders and wrestlers. Not a sportscar.
    Just my 2 cents.

    Re: Detroit review

    I don't know how many opportunities you get to see Corvettes on a race track, but they are pretty devastating.

    As a street car, they lack the elegence and precision of a Porsche, but on a track, Porsches elegance and precision just isnt enough to keep up anymore for a stock production vehicle class.

    Already this year, 996 GT3's and M3's have been humbled by lowly Ford Mustangs in the Can Am Gt series. Now Pontiac is piling on to thrash european cars that have invested more in technology than in going faster. If you had said this would have happened four years ago, I would have laughed also. But the very recent changes in aerodynamics, brakes
    and engine management means that a street model corvette or mustang no longer has its windows being sucked out at over 130 and its front wheels barely in touch with the ground.
    Top Speeds of 180 and 175 for an American street car (Corvette and GTO)is nothing to laugh at anymore.

    When pushed hard, Detroit iron is very competitive, when examined for paint kraftsmanship and french style seam stitching they lose. The paint gloss depth and seat leather quality doesnt mean much when you really want to use the "sport" part of the sports car. Its a changing auto world.

    Besides, now that Nick will to get to see frequent reports
    of Pontiacs and Chevys beating, crushing and humbling the near fakoid non competitive Ferraris on a regular basis, its all somehow worth it.

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    sdy284 said:
    Quote:
    Our own homegrown Chevrolet Corvette convertible, which was also redesigned for 2005, happens to be my personal favorite in the class. For $51,000, it will run rings around the Boxster and its foreign pals all day long.



    since when was the vette and boxster in the same class????
    man, these are same type of people that behind that motor trend article where the vette beat out the 2 porsche's



    For once we agree. The Corvette belongs in the same class as the 911. The Boxster (I love the car)belongs in a lower class like the Honda 2000 and the 360Z. They needed to treat the Boxster more fairly.



    If thats the case, then the Z06 is the real competitor for the F430 http://www.corvettesbyrickdaniel.com/C6Z06INFO.html



    From a performance standpoint, the Z06 certainly is! Just like it will be for the 997TT. As for the 997/997S, they are not in the same league.

    Re: Detroit review

    To be honest, I have never watched any american sportscar series, be it stockcar, top fuel, (what's it called where they drive senselessly around and round in an oval?), any GT series or or the US Le Mans series.
    Hence I have no idea how US cars are doing compared to european ones.
    I am pretty sure that the story is different and the competition much closer when we talk modified cars.
    Hell, in the German DTC series you'll see Opels beating Porsches.

    No, I'm talking non-modified production cars.
    I am absolutely open to the fact that US cars have improved - even in this area - but still haven't seen a thoroughbread US sportscar that can compete with Ferraris, Astons, Porsches etc and still have the poise, style and buildquality of these cars.

    I'm sure any european sportscar can be beaten, no doubt.
    Gimme a Mazda MX5 and a can of NOS and I'm there!

    Maybe I'm biased because here in Denmark, usually only drugdealers and porn wholesalers drive Vettes, Trans Ams and the like. New or old.
    and I may also be totally wrong about the Vettes actual performance, but from what I've heard and read it's still a Vette. (Hey! That rhymed!...I'm a songwriter!)

    To me, comparing a Vette to a 911 is like comparing LL Cool J to Kiri Te Kanawa. It's just two different ways of being entertained.

    Having said all this, I truly welcome any improvement our american friends can come up with. Hopefully we will see even better cars on both sides of the Pond in the years to come.

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:As a street car, they lack the elegence and precision of a Porsche, but on a track, Porsches elegance and precision just isnt enough to keep up anymore for a stock production vehicle class.

    When pushed hard, Detroit iron is very competitive, when examined for paint kraftsmanship and french style seam stitching they lose. The paint gloss depth and seat leather quality doesnt mean much when you really want to use the "sport" part of the sports car. Its a changing auto world.



    I'm no fan of the Corvette, primarily for the subjective, stylistic reasons that Jim mentions above. But all current Porsche owners indirectly benefit from the competitive pressure that GM applies by building this vehicle for $50K.

    I'm sure Porsche constantly evaluates their competitors' products, and continues to upgrade all aspects of the 911 to make sure there is a perceived benefit for the extra 30-50K you spend for one over the Corvette.

    I think the Z06 in particular will pose a certain problem for Porsche. It has all the right marketing buzzwords and some lofty performance targets. With the 911's rear-engine, flat 6 layout, achieveing similar performance costs Porsche more on a per vehicle basis. The Z06 will have a 7 liter V8 right? That type of displacement (and the inexpensive hp/torque it makes) is simply not an option in the 911.

    Perhaps one day the main distinction between the 911 and the Z06 will be based more on subjective issues like "driving feel", "exclusivity/prestige" and "build quality" than on the actual performance of the two automobiles. I personally don't mind this at all, but some Porschephile enthusiasts may not be comfortable with a cheaper American car being able to equal or surpass their performance on the street or track.

    Ultimately I agree with Dr. Phil, you simply have to decide which "form of entertainment" you prefer and enjoy it for your own reasons.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    To be honest, I have never watched any american sportscar series, be it stockcar, top fuel, (what's it called where they drive senselessly around and round in an oval?), any GT series or or the US Le Mans series.
    Hence I have no idea how US cars are doing compared to european ones.
    I am pretty sure that the story is different and the competition much closer when we talk modified cars.
    Hell, in the German DTC series you'll see Opels beating Porsches.

    No, I'm talking non-modified production cars.
    I am absolutely open to the fact that US cars have improved - even in this area - but still haven't seen a thoroughbread US sportscar that can compete with Ferraris, Astons, Porsches etc and still have the poise, style and buildquality of these cars.

    I'm sure any european sportscar can be beaten, no doubt.
    Gimme a Mazda MX5 and a can of NOS and I'm there!

    Maybe I'm biased because here in Denmark, usually only drugdealers and porn wholesalers drive Vettes, Trans Ams and the like. New or old.
    and I may also be totally wrong about the Vettes actual performance, but from what I've heard and read it's still a Vette. (Hey! That rhymed!...I'm a songwriter!)

    To me, comparing a Vette to a 911 is like comparing LL Cool J to Kiri Te Kanawa. It's just two different ways of being entertained.

    Having said all this, I truly welcome any improvement our american friends can come up with. Hopefully we will see even better cars on both sides of the Pond in the years to come.



    Hey Doc, U no gettem satellite TV in bling bling Denmark?
    Tell your government to use their silly speeding tax dollars to provide universal sattelite TV coverage NOW!

    Sportscar racing in the US is nothing like dragster racing, stock car racing or circle dirt track sprint car racing that you mentioned.

    Sportscar racing here means road like courses. Check out the tracks at Monterey, Sonoma, Atlanta,Watkins Glen etc.. These are very technical road courses,some of wich are near the worlds finest vineyards Regretfully we dont make a decent champagne, so one must drink the ordinairy Crystal that is usually stocked on shelves next to the handgun ammunition and chewing tobacco at Southern gas stations.

    I donno what to say about your Danish porn wholesalers and dope dealers liking Corvettes and Firebirds. Here they seriously prefer Bentleys, Porsches, Mercedes and Ferraris. So I suppose our cash rich criminals have a better sense of style.

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Hey Doc, U no gettem satellite TV in bling bling Denmark?
    Tell your government to use their silly speeding tax dollars to provide universal sattelite TV coverage NOW!

    Sportscar racing in the US is nothing like dragster racing, stock car racing or circle dirt track sprint car racing that you mentioned.

    Sportscar racing here means road like courses. Check out the tracks at Monterey, Sonoma, Atlanta,Watkins Glen etc.. These are very technical road courses,some of wich are near the worlds finest vineyards Regretfully we dont make a decent champagne, so one must drink the ordinairy Crystal that is usually stocked on shelves next to the handgun ammunition and chewing tobacco at Southern gas stations.

    I donno what to say about your Danish porn wholesalers and dope dealers liking Corvettes and Firebirds. Here they seriously prefer Bentleys, Porsches, Mercedes and Ferraris. So I suppose our cash rich criminals have a better sense of style.



    Hehehe...well, believe it or not we actually DO have loeads of satellite channels here, but I don't think ESPN or any sports networks can be found in any danish sat-package. At least I havent seen any.

    I'm aware that the US have more to offer than cars going around in an oval, I just havent seen any races.
    The more I think about this, the more I realize that this debate; this resistance from many europeans to accepting US cars as equal to their own; might be the classic problem many europeans have with US products and brands:
    For decades the Americans have produced cars that were (and for the most part still are) too "in your face", too Billy-Ray trailerparkish, too loud, too over-the-top, and plain and simple: Too much bad taste for Europeans to find them kosher and acceptable.

    For many years the US carmakers have made cars focusing less on purpose, and more on show-off value based on the "more is more" philosophy.

    You mention drugdealers in the US driving Bentleys.
    Yes, you're right. Only you forgot to mention that they mount some bling-bling 24" chrome wheels to make absolutely sure that everyone sees how "exclusive" and shiny their car is.
    I'm sure most people in here find this less than tasteful, since most of us drive european cars and have "european" or continental taste.

    This long story to conclude, that american sportscars will continue to be just that. American...and preferred by Americans only, unless the US car makers start thinking even more un-american, or at least less bling-bling-Budweiser-Tennessee Joe-donutburning-soupguzzling V8-rumbling----ish. (Phew...) than they already do.

    If the performance both on track and off track, and both on the straights and the curves are up there with P`s, F's etc, the next step is to work on the image.

    Man, I love the old car chases from "Bullit", "Gone in 60 secs", "French Connection" and movies like those. They wouldn't have been half as interesting with Porsches or Ferraris.
    I often think to myself when watching an american movie car chase:
    "Why are the bad guys always so frigging stupid they always steal a Pontiac POS instead of a Porsche, Ferrari or even Audi S4 or something?...the chase would be over in 12 seconds!"
    But of course that's the point of a car chase...
    Imagine a chase with NO skidding, powersliding or wobbly cars? Nah...
    Seriously. That would have killed the cinematic fun.

    But exactly THAT image - I believe - is now haunting the US sportscar makers. To many people think US cars = wobbly rubber-suspension cars with a gazillion BHPs - and to some extend they are correct in thinking so.

    I just checked out the new Vette, and it's a nice car...but it's still too american for me.
    It's more McQueen than it is James Bond.
    I look at it...and just cant see myself in it. Fine handling or not. I cant see myself in it.
    You can show me 200 tests where it beats the 911 hands down and drives circles around my Boxey. You can sell it to me at half the price of my Boxey...I couldn't care less.
    It's not what I want. It doesn't become me. It lacks the prestige, style, feel and craftsmanship (my personal perception) that you get from F, P, Aston, Jag etc etc. Same problem with the Mitsu Evo VIII. Great performance (tailed a Murcie around a track in TopGear) but I wouldn't wanna be caught dead in one.

    I trust I am not the only European who feels this way - and I believe that's the very reason why you wont see many Vettes on European soil.

    I'm sure if people weren't susceptible branding and marketing, and that this would all be different. But then again - so would most of the World.
    Nobody would buy Audis - but stick to Seats.
    And we'd all be wearing Casio watches.
    Who needs more?


    Re: Detroit review

    Btw...whats that circle-driving thing called...Nascar?

    Re: Detroit review

    That's right Dr. Phil.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    Imagine a chase with NO skidding, powersliding or wobbly cars? Nah...


    Ronin? Against all odds? The Transporter?

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    Imagine a chase with NO skidding, powersliding or wobbly cars? Nah...


    Ronin? Against all odds? The Transporter?



    Sorry, haven't seen the last two, and can't even recall the chase in Ronin.
    I'll check it out - think I have it on Video.

    Re: Detroit review

    Check out Taxi 1&2 while you're at it

    Major lapsus going on here...
    What was the name of the movie with a 911 (912?) Targa (i think) driven by a guy, chasing another classic car, driven by a lady, on the Riviere (i think)? Damn, I must be getting old

    Re: Detroit review

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Check out Taxi 1&2 while you're at it

    Major lapsus going on here...
    What was the name of the movie with a 911 (912?) Targa (i think) driven by a guy, chasing another classic car, driven by a lady, on the Riviere (i think)? Damn, I must be getting old



    Mission:Impossible II?
    Tom Cruise and Thandie Newton, 911 (996/3? cab) and Audi TT Roadster.

    I found some pics of Thandie and cars.

    Here's a link to Car chase Hall of Fame
    http://tcotrel.tripod.com/carchasetwo.html

    Movie car chase database:
    www.varaces.com

    Re: Ford Chevy, Now officially - Junk

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050505/D89T6CAO1.html

    Like this is going to help sales and customer perceptions, LOL

    Ford and Chevy, Junk!

    Ouch!


    For too many years they sat on their asses and sold crap built on a price per pound profit formula instead of actually giving customers solid value. You gotta alove years of myopic ostrich headed management where style, art and performance was not in the game plan.

    Re: Ford Chevy, Now officially - Junk

    You got to give gm credit tho. They lost a billion in the last quarter while Porsche sold 10k cars for the year to date. The economies of scale are somewhat different. I'm not sure their style is myopic, I think it's more dollar centric. They skim and reuse to an extreme, so eventually all gm cars look alike. Thank goodness for Dodge and Cadi, at least they tend away from the norm.

    I bought a Boxster but I still think the new vette looks sweet. In the end a vette is a vette and the Boxster is just plain fun to drive!

    Performance-per-$ vs Performance-per-mpg

    Gosh, this thread is fun!

    I think the C6 is much better than a lot of past American sports cars, which is a Good Thing.

    BUT... I think it's easier to achieve the outright performance (which accounts for a lot of the on-track advantage I would guess) given a big block to start from. However this is probably at the expense of lower mpg, which is going to make most Europeans (who pay a lot more for their fuel) reject it.

    I think that, like with a lot of things, there is a law of diminishing returns - if you spend twice as much in the per-vehicle development/build costs, you don't necessarily get a car which is 'twice as good'.

    And I think the C6 is built for a price, to a specific target market, and for a specific purpose - to compete with foreign metal on home turf. Which it does very well indeed.

    Over here, if you want a car that can kick a Porsche's butt for half the price, you buy an Impreza WRX or an Evo. (And those have only 2 litre engines!)

    Re: Performance-per-$ vs Performance-per-mpg

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Over here, if you want a car that can kick a Porsche's butt for half the price, you buy an Impreza WRX or an Evo. (And those have only 2 litre engines!)



    True, if you either do not want to spend the extra $$$ on a Porsche, or simply aren't able to.
    The target audiences of Porsche and e.g. Mitsu and Subaru repectively are so different, that it's highly unlikely you will ever hear a person say "I was thinking about buying a 911 but ended up getting the EVO".
    Both cars might do the job, but they do it VERY differently, which is reflected in the type of person you find behind the wheel of each car.

    This is Corvettes (e.g.) problem in a nutshell.
    I don't believe more than very few people seriously choose between a Porsche and a Vette.
    Perhaps the few people who do, really are the smarter of us all..
    They have looked past image, what people say, branding etc. and simply focus on getting the ultimate thrill for the bill. (Hey! I need to trademark that one!)

    Dic Poddy Dippydad Pip Pip Dee Dee Bridgewater Pop

    Re: Performance-per-$ vs Performance-per-mpg

    OB/Gyn stirrups, lol. That just had to be a US observation.

    Ronin rocks for car chases.

    One reason you don't see many Vettes and Mustangs in Europe is the legendary thirst of these cars (perceived or real, matters not), which clashes with the local fuel prices. Also, if you live and park in London like I do, a Vette would be a pure nightmare to maintain due to its dimensions. However, it fits the Walmart parking spots just fine. Well it's the nature of the beast(s) isn't it? The American sportscars are made for Americans, driving on America roads.. and the European cars are made for European soil and souls. Both fit their purpose. Comparing one to the other is fun but not mission critical since the objectives and buyer groups seem sufficiently different to allow coexistence.

    Curiously enough, it was interesting to observe how my shiny black Audi TT 225 Quattro roadster turned way more heads in the US than the Vettes while I lived there.

    Still, European cars feel almost out of scale on US roads.. too tiny and filigran. Huge pot holes and semi trucks all over the place can cause you to be downright scared if you're driving a rather small car. At least in NC, the nimbleness and elegance of the Euro cars didn't really seem to come into play that much. It was more a class and image reason that could make people choose European cars over local or Japanese vehicles. BMWs were universally referred to as sportscars .

    Me, I would still stick with my Euro-scale sports- and pleasure cars, be it in the US or the UK, simply because they fit me better. From seating position to handling fun and the aesthetically pleasing design (inside and outside) which I have yet to see a US car match (the new Vette lost it's glamour for me when I saw the first picture of its interior). It's a personal preference to preserve the individual driver-car connection, at a risk of losing that bigger picture, the click and fit between car, society and environment.

    All said, there is a certain flair of power and wildness to the US cars though. Cruising down Daytona beach in a Ferrari or an Audi is nice but lacks authenticity in a hard to describe way.. it's gotta be a Mustang convertible. Watching a Nascar race demands a Bud in your hand, not a glass of champagne.

    Re: Performance-per-$ vs Performance-per-mpg

    Quote:
    Ente said:
    Cruising down Daytona beach in a Ferrari or an Audi is nice but lacks authenticity in a hard to describe way.. it's gotta be a Mustang convertible. Watching a Nascar race demands a Bud in your hand, not a glass of champagne.



    So very true IMO, Ente.
    It just isn't very authentic to cruise the Croisette in Cannes in a Corvette, or cruising Sunset Boulevard in a Porsche.

     
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