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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:
    bluelines:
    bobr:

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.

    ...and so RT went electric Smiley

    This is the model I will consider too. 

    I will keep my ICE 911. Smiley

    Me too Smiley


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Porker:

    Cool overlay comparison

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Autos/comments/dhrttq/tesla_model_s_vs_porsche_taycan_handling_test/

     

    Thanks for that link, which shows what I was expecting. My sales guy (110% petrolhead, EV sceptic) has been to Mallorca for the mandatory 4day Porsche training experience. He returned and said: "it's a Porsche and it's very fast". I'm quite sure, that we're up to something useful :).
     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Too bad Porsche lease prices are not the best....


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    spudgun:

    Too bad Porsche lease prices are not the best....

    This is exactly the point... Smiley

    So maybe I'll get an Audi RS Q8 instead (as an E63 S AMG replacement)...to make Greta proud. Smiley Smiley

    Tesla lease offers have become more attractive as well, so maybe... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    2A281976-A66F-4B1A-AB80-3DF53B8DF99E.jpeg

    Link: https://mobile.twitter.com/harrismonkey/status/1184010985411092482

    Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Georg Kacher has written a featured article in the November issue of Car Magazine on the new Taycan.  Overall, he is impressed with Porsche's latest foray into the EV space but remains a bit surprised that the Taycan doesn't move the target far enough away from the elderly Tesla Model S.  Pluses on the Taycan include fit and finish, as expected, as well as acceleration.  Minuses, of course, focus on range versus that of the Model S.  

    Kacher's comment on the Taycan only being an incremental improvement on the Tesla's performance isn't unexpected as an EV's overall efficiency puts these cars at the ragged edge of tire generated tractive forces.  Instantaneous maximum torque at zero RPM means that it is far easier to work a tire to the end of its performance envelop while an ICE needs to build torque over its rev range.  This means that the characteristics that defined an ICE-based car is fleeting and replaced almost with a commodity-like performance of an electric machine.  

    This commoditization is something that the legacy automakers will need to address in order to maintain brand equity.  However, with the move toward software and touchscreens in the interior it is becoming more and more difficult.  This is essentially what Kacher basically states in less-than-clear statement.  Looking at Volkswagen Group's EV strategy, the organization seems to understand the move towards sustained profitability in a near perfectly competitive environment; only time will reveal if Volkswagen really understands the nuisances of this brave new EV world.  Likewise, Tesla's Q3 earnings statement in a few days will also determine if this company is a longtime survivor.  

    Finally, Nick posted a few days ago a question about Tesla not licensing its platform to other makers, unlike Volkswagen with Ford.  Last week a YouTuber in the States posted a disassembly video of a salvage Tesla powertrain unit.  One was surprised by the archaic design of its inverter.  Upon researching the inverter design of the Model S/X, one uncovered that the design dates back to that of AC Propulsion in the early 1990s.  Tesla literally licensed that technology from AC Propulsion, which probably limited its ability to sublicense that technology to other automakers.  The Model 3, however, deviates from Tesla's initial entrants.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    One of VW's claimed advantages is the battery cost as they're sourced from China.  Which is great, until some line supervisor in Zuffenhausen tweets about Tibet.

    I don't care whether Tesla survives long term or not, but I doubt Porsche will.  That said, I hope they're around long enough for me to buy a couple more cars with the cylinders out back.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    You doubt that Porsche will survive long term? Seriously?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    You doubt that Porsche will survive long term? Seriously?

    I was wondering the same... Smiley I am the biggest critic of Porsche but I never doubted their long term survival, on the contrary, the Taycan and abandoning Diesel models is a clear message to all critics...a message that Porsche can adapt to any market situation...fast. Still waiting for "my" 960 though... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    You doubt that Porsche will survive long term? Seriously?

    I had a Porsche poster on my wall as a kid.  And a Countach and 512bb.  I'm now lucky enough to have a 911.  I'm guessing a significant number of Porsche sales are to guys who had 930 posters, but can't quite justify a 911 and get the Weissach S5 or Touareg instead, maybe the S model with some extra leather bits or PSE for fun.  Kids today don't have car posters on their walls--the future purchasers of our expensive cars don't care.  A car is simply a means to get from A to B and even better if somebody else summoned on the smart phone does the driving.  Automated or semi automated driving, GPS enforced speed limits, increased congestion, environmental image and loss of perceived German engineering supremacy all argue against Porsche's long term survivability in its current market niche (and BMWs).

    The Taycan may be great but long term, electricity kills the Porsche brand.  It may handle a bit better, but won't be much faster and certainly more expensive than competing e-cars.  It's pretty hard to get excited about 800V versus 400V or battery hum relative to the raspy angry sound every time I turn the ignition.  A curved digital dashboard is awesomely futuristic, but so was a Motorola Razor.  Porsche used to be able to say they had the highest percentage of cars still on the road.  Can they still claim that?  How often do you see a 986?  First generation Cayennes are thin on the ground, and sad with their discolored window trim and fogged up headlights.  The cars have become disposable, not aspirational.  They're too expensive to be disposable and not wild enough to be aspirational.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I don't think there is a car company in the market with better long term outlook than Porsche...they are the most profitable in the game, they are in huge demand, they have a huge image value, they are ahead than most in the EV change, they have the support of a huge conglomerate (VAG), etc..


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos from Spain:

    I don't think there is a car company in the market with better long term outlook than Porsche...they are the most profitable in the game, they are in huge demand, they have a huge image value, they are ahead than most in the EV change, they have the support of a huge conglomerate (VAG), etc..

     SmileySmiley Porsche is one of the leading innovators of automotive technology. The future is EV or alternative power sources. Porsche products will incorporate those power sources in their models, much as they did with the ICE.  I continue to see a bright future for Porsche. 


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:
    Carlos from Spain:

    I don't think there is a car company in the market with better long term outlook than Porsche...they are the most profitable in the game, they are in huge demand, they have a huge image value, they are ahead than most in the EV change, they have the support of a huge conglomerate (VAG), etc..

     SmileySmiley Porsche is one of the leading innovators of automotive technology. The future is EV or alternative power sources. Porsche products will incorporate those power sources in their models, much as they did with the ICE.  I continue to see a bright future for Porsche. 

    Porsche, and most of the Volkswagen Group, will be longterm survivors during the so-called transition of the auto industry.  Too many are caught up in semantics to realize that the transition to EV from the internal combustion engine isn't that great of a change.  This isn't the case of wagon manufacturers failing to navigate the change to automobiles in the early 20th century.  Only Indiana-based Studebaker moved successfully into automobile production and its first products were electric cars.  It failed sixty years later from economic and competitive pressures from the Big 3 and the UAW.  

    Much, if not most, of an automaker's knowhow is directly related to the development and manufacture of electric cars.  There will be failures, of course, and these are the legacy automakers that are in precarious financial positions today.  

    Returning to the subjects of technical knowhow and infrastructure, Volkswagen Group's largest R&D center outside of Germany is in Silicon Valley, literally down the road from Tesla's manufacturing facility in Fremont.  Volkswagen has had a facility there for over twenty years.  Interestingly, Porsche maintains an independent facility, some of its work is contract-based for other automakers, in the Valley too.  In this environment, Tesla remains the underfunded and outgunned small fry.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I can't wait to hear from Taycan owners after waiting in line to recharge on road trips, so much for hammer down.

    Running 1200 miles Malibu to Idaho or Wyoming, there won't be any charge stations anyway, so the only thing worse than mis-planning your gas stops in central Nevada will be leaving your Taycan on the road side and hitchhiking.  Just another city transport device solving a non existent problem.  The Taycan will allow ultra high end virtue signaling to the max however.

    And once power generation is taken to account zero emissions is BS, where hydropower is not avaliable -- Electricity otherwise comes from hydrocarbons most efficiently and cleanly, without going into the toxicity of massive battery, as well as solar panel, production and disposal and rare element mining, and the visual and noise blight of wind along with massive bird kills.  Virtue signaling is quite vicious actually.

    As for Porsche's future - it's in the past great products, they will live forever. If it's EV, it will be a much smaller business.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Watt, one of your longer posts but a damn good one.kiss


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


     
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