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    Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Im thinking about adding intercoolers to my car since it getting a little hot down here any suggestions? whats the main diffrence of the secan ics compared to other aftermarket ics to justify the heavy price tag ? about 15k euros is there any diffrence on the build or materials used?

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Dont know about the secans but the Evoms did the job for me. They also increase airflow and slightly turbo boost.
    I would be interested in finding out what the Secans can do better..

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Dont know about the secans but the Evoms did the job for me. They also increase airflow and slightly turbo boost.
    I would be interested in finding out what the Secans can do better..



    Secans are used in racing applications to keep the heat down with even 700 PS cars. They are obviously much better if one is looking for sustainable performance (especially at 40* C).

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    FWIW, Excellence mag May 2008, page 5 advertises, "Werks One Composite Intercoolers" for the 997 turbo.

    "Composite" sounds good to me.

    Brand new product? Not even on their website yet.

    Phone numbers:

    800.775.2456

    T 954.946.2136


    Website:

    werksone.com

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    I would be interested in finding out what the Secans can do better..


    Cool......

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    FWIW, Excellence mag May 2008, page 5 advertises, "Werks One Composite Intercoolers" for the 997 turbo.

    "Composite" sounds good to me.

    Brand new product? Not even on their website yet.

    Phone numbers:

    800.775.2456

    T 954.946.2136


    Website:

    werksone.com



    can we have a scan of the ad ?

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    GT said:
    I would be interested in finding out what the Secans can do better..


    Cool......



    Pretty cool reply .

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    Jiaim said:

    can we have a scan of the ad ?



    My pleasure, here ya go:

    BTW, what do you guys think of them?

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    i have rs tuning intercoolers. the cores are made by secan, a frence aerospace firm. to my knowledge, these are the only intercoolers which utilize the secan cores. the difference from stock and from the other available intercoolers is that the foil is much more densly packed. i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    shonuf said:
    i have rs tuning intercoolers. the cores are made by secan, a frence aerospace firm. to my knowledge, these are the only intercoolers which utilize the secan cores. the difference from stock and from the other available intercoolers is that the foil is much more densly packed. i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!



    Depends on tuning level. For sustained high-speed runs, Secan ICs are a must, especially at higher power levels. RS Tuning kits 624, 645 and 680 all use these ICs.

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    shonuf said:
    . i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!



    The problem with guessing which intercoolers to buy is it seems virtually no manufacturers actually test their wares in a meanigful way but rely on the marketing BS like in the ad above which may or may not be true - who really cares if the thing flows 30% more ? what we should know is does the unit give lower IATs than the stock unit and how much lower ?
    RS Tuning quote that the IAT will be maintained within a maximum of 25DegC over ambient for Secan apllication on THEIR engines (they cannot speak for other tuned engines since if those engines produce more heat through boost/non ideal component matching it obviously skews the RS numbers)

    I have never seen any other manufacturer quote these sorts of numbers or any objective tests done on any other intercooler -that is why IMO other intercoolers are in the "snake oil" category until PROVEN otherwise.

    To put some bones on my ramblings - Anyone remember the "V" flow TTP intercooler for the 993tt ? They were made by TTP sold by all tuners inc Cargraphic, FVD and advertised as "V" flow 50% greater core area etc....

    I bought one of these and used it on my first RST 520hp engine (they told me it was worse than stock but I didn't listen)
    Eventually I did a back to back test against a stock I/C - basically under same atmo conditions I ran each I/C at around 110mph and let the IAT stabilise - the stock one geave cooler air by about 5%....I spoke to the manufacturer who didn't really want to know and just rambled about "as long as the IAT is below 50DegC it is good !" Since then I have been a Sceptic about I/Cs.

    I have done objective testing on the latest Secan offering in the 993tt application and it truely is an amazing bit of kit - On my RST engine full throttle at 7000rpm in 6th gear on a 9DegC day the IAT was 20DegC. Another 993tt on the same day with stock I/C was at IAT 45DegC near full speed.

    The main benefit on the Secan I am told is when the ambient temps get higher like 30-40DegC they really contain the IAT down to ~50-55DegC.
    Remember this is important as your Motronic starts retarding timing and reducing boost at around IAT 38DegC so from there upwards you are losing your horsepower......

    I stand to be corrected and would love to see other testing done on the myriad of I/Cs available but the silence is deafening

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    shonuf said:
    . i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!



    The problem with guessing which intercoolers to buy is it seems virtually no manufacturers actually test their wares in a meanigful way but rely on the marketing BS like in the ad above which may or may not be true - who really cares if the thing flows 30% more ? what we should know is does the unit give lower IATs than the stock unit and how much lower ?
    RS Tuning quote that the IAT will be maintained within a maximum of 25DegC over ambient for Secan apllication on THEIR engines (they cannot speak for other tuned engines since if those engines produce more heat through boost/non ideal component matching it obviously skews the RS numbers)

    I have never seen any other manufacturer quote these sorts of numbers or any objective tests done on any other intercooler -that is why IMO other intercoolers are in the "snake oil" category until PROVEN otherwise.

    To put some bones on my ramblings - Anyone remember the "V" flow TTP intercooler for the 993tt ? They were made by TTP sold by all tuners inc Cargraphic, FVD and advertised as "V" flow 50% greater core area etc....

    I bought one of these and used it on my first RST 520hp engine (they told me it was worse than stock but I didn't listen)
    Eventually I did a back to back test against a stock I/C - basically under same atmo conditions I ran each I/C at around 110mph and let the IAT stabilise - the stock one geave cooler air by about 5%....I spoke to the manufacturer who didn't really want to know and just rambled about "as long as the IAT is below 50DegC it is good !" Since then I have been a Sceptic about I/Cs.

    I have done objective testing on the latest Secan offering in the 993tt application and it truely is an amazing bit of kit - On my RST engine full throttle at 7000rpm in 6th gear on a 9DegC day the IAT was 20DegC. Another 993tt on the same day with stock I/C was at IAT 45DegC near full speed.

    The main benefit on the Secan I am told is when the ambient temps get higher like 30-40DegC they really contain the IAT down to ~50-55DegC.
    Remember this is important as your Motronic starts retarding timing and reducing boost at around IAT 38DegC so from there upwards you are losing your horsepower......

    I stand to be corrected and would love to see other testing done on the myriad of I/Cs available but the silence is deafening



    Question: How much time or distance at full throttle do you think a modified 997TT requires before it becomes useful to upgrade the intercoolers?
    Is it even necessary for someone who lives in a moderate climate and never pushes the car over a mile or 30 seconds at a time (i.e. usa)?
    What about during track time?
    Thanks

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    God TB993tt you are going to make spend the money for the Secans!!!
    I did not have chance to measure the IATs of stock ICs vs the EVOMs before I swapped but as maybe a point of reference my car got 50bhp with the addition of the evoms plus CG exhaust (from stock exhaust converted with 200 cells). So 650hp from 600hp but.. most importantly the car had that power on the road! (while before it did not).
    Now the Evoms ICs were at least worth 30-35hp on the dyno and much more in real life conditions.
    Sportec had not advised me to change ICs but I was just told that after my car, they also tried on a few others and now admitted that they make significant power on 997tt.
    However the evidence you present on the Secans makes me think again.. When I finally get the durametric diagnostic I ll try to run some tests.

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    AAHTT said:
    Question: How much time or distance at full throttle do you think a modified 997TT requires before it becomes useful to upgrade the intercoolers?
    Is it even necessary for someone who lives in a moderate climate and never pushes the car over a mile or 30 seconds at a time (i.e. usa)?
    What about during track time?
    Thanks



    All good questions with no easy answers.

    "How" the modified engine is tuned will make quite a difference with some engines essentially running more boost and producing more heat compared to an alternative engine maybe with similar power running bigger turbos running in their sweet spot and keeping IATs down.

    One would think in an ideal situation the engine builder would tune the engine on the dyno, new I/Cs in situ with 30DegC air blowing through them and a 30Degc ambient temp then tune the Motronic so that the maximum IAT under those extremish conditions gets no higher than the first tier of timing/boost reduction (like I said on my car that first tier is at 37.5DegC)
    I know RS Tuning do something similar.

    It really should be the engine builders who are specifying the intercoolers to use. I know Todd Kighton does and his final tuning is done on the car presumably taking into account the numbers he is seeing for IATs when on the road.


    To answer your questions specifically:
    You would have to take your modded tt and test with a hammer or OBD reader. It is quite simple, plug it in, get IAT on the readout and do some blasting, you will soon get the hang of whether your IATs are getting stupid/ If they stay under 40DegC you are getting near max power and over that the power will be dropping off progressively as the timing and boost are pulled. You will answer your second question by doing the test.
    But remember unless the I/Cs you are "upgrading" to actually work you may make matters worse (like I did with the TTP jobbies)

    Track time is really hard on turbo cars because the air flow through the I/Cs is up and down between the corners, it is probably here where the expensive Secans earn their money - did you ever see the size of the Secans on the original 993 GT2 racers, they were spectacular in every way $$$$$ but would support ~640hp in track conditions....

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    God TB993tt you are going to make spend the money for the Secans!!!
    I did not have chance to measure the IATs of stock ICs vs the EVOMs before I swapped but as maybe a point of reference my car got 50bhp with the addition of the evoms plus CG exhaust (from stock exhaust converted with 200 cells). So 650hp from 600hp but.. most importantly the car had that power on the road! (while before it did not).
    Now the Evoms ICs were at least worth 30-35hp on the dyno and much more in real life conditions.
    Sportec had not advised me to change ICs but I was just told that after my car, they also tried on a few others and now admitted that they make significant power on 997tt.
    However the evidence you present on the Secans makes me think again.. When I finally get the durametric diagnostic I ll try to run some tests.


    I am interested as to how the EVOMS I/Cs could be shown to make 30-35hp on the dyno ?
    Did evidence of lower IATs (with the EVOMS I/Cs fitted) enable them to increase boost back up to the critical ~37.5DegC IAT level (where power would go down) ? and so produce the extra DIN power ?

    BTW the Secans are ridiculous crazy money and overkill for a street car like mine - one day I will run a 0-300kph using stock I/C v my Secan and I'll bet the difference is negligable - They are really for people who race or drive really hard in 30DegC+ climates. We don't get much of that in N Europe

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    I think im better off giving the workshop a ring asking them if there is any diffrence between the tt ics and the gt2 ics, i just cant justify the 15k euro price tag of the secan ics. also my car is not heavly modded to realize good gains on IATs & performance etc.

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Interesting and informative thread!!

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    I will try to ask sportec as to why they think they made such difference but I believe that indeed lower IATs allowed them to fine tune boost more aggressively. Also I felt an improvement in response and turbo lag which points to more optimal ignition timing adopted from the ecu. Finally consumption went down as well as they can was running too rich before to cool things down..
    Hence I believe that in my application, trying for 600+hp with modded vtgs but stock ICs was not ideal at all.. I think better ICs should be one of the first things one should consider changing for a 997tt when trying for this sort of power.

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    I will try to ask sportec as to why they think they made such difference but I believe that indeed lower IATs allowed them to fine tune boost more aggressively. Also I felt an improvement in response and turbo lag which points to more optimal ignition timing adopted from the ecu. Finally consumption went down as well as they can was running too rich before to cool things down..
    Hence I believe that in my application, trying for 600+hp with modded vtgs but stock ICs was not ideal at all.. I think better ICs should be one of the first things one should consider changing for a 997tt when trying for this sort of power.


    I have to say I am strictly in the "stock works best" camp until proven otherwise.
    If the EVOMS units are actually working as you seem to think they are then it would be a no brainer to buy a set, they cost buttons compared to the Secans.
    Look forward to you plugging in your laptop and reading those IATs

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    I just gave the workshop a call, there is no diffrence between Gt2 ics and the TTs ics same price tag, same part number!!!!, GT with all due respect , i dont think a 9 second run on the dyno would prove anything even if there is a gain, like i stated on the ruf turbo post , My car was stage 1 550hp from ruf with Only 100cel cats and Bmc filter and ecu, whilst the other car was an evoms stage4 997tt with 610hp , with full exhaust system , headers , airfilter , evoms ics, giac software, & silicon hoses, the outcome was 2-3 car lengths and walking away slowly for the ruf.

    also evoms has proved over 520hp at the wheels on the dyno for this kit !!! while rufs package was aboout 480 at the wheels if my memory serves!

    I have also driven the evoms stage 4 i raced and yes boost kicked in faster maybe due to the increased flow of the intercoolers or was maybe because of the headers. but my point is evoms ics can prove a gain on a 9second dyno run but once in the realworld it might not sustain cool IATS under hard driving and therefor lose power

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Oh well how about, 0-200 in 10.7 (or worse really) vs 9.6 seconds? The 200-300kms difference should be in the order of 5-6 seconds min even though I did not measure it before very accurately. Ans those measurement where at 30 deg ambient temperature (summer).
    The point u are trying to make is exactly the reverse of the point I was making; the intercoolers made my car a hell of a lot faster in real world driving, forget about the dyno!
    My sportec stage 3 (with the ICs) did 100-200 6.1secs on the vbox and 200-300 in about 13-14 seconds (stopwatch). It was nowhere near that before.
    Those numbers are consistent with the 620hp sportec stage 3 (no ICs) is that they are 0.3 or so faster 0-200 and 2-3 seconds faster the 300kms.
    One thing to mention though, with the addition of the ICs they had to retune the ecu to accomadate for the airflow difference (and also with even more reduced backpressure of the CG exhaust).

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    I understand GT, but didnt you change the exhaust and ics together? before you noticed any gains? maybe the modifed stock exhaust you used to have was not from sportec and doesnt extract the full potential from there package?

    There was a thread im still searching for it in order to post, i dont know if you guys remember it comparing 7 or 8 exhaust setups for the 996tt with upgraded turbos , giac software , intake manifolds on the dyno, sadly the ruf exhaust made less power than all other exhaust setups tested. this again shows that 9 second dyno runs prove nothing for the porsche turbo gt1 engine, and it also proves that diffrent exhausts work with diffrent setups , and maybe your car was not extracting its full potential due to your exhaust setup.

    please correct me if i missed something

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Just found the link enjoy

    http://www.rennlist.com/imagineauto/Imaginemuffler.pdf

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Oh well how about, 0-200 in 10.7 (or worse really) vs 9.6 seconds? The 200-300kms difference should be in the order of 5-6 seconds min even though I did not measure it before very accurately. Ans those measurement where at 30 deg ambient temperature (summer).
    The point u are trying to make is exactly the reverse of the point I was making; the intercoolers made my car a hell of a lot faster in real world driving, forget about the dyno!
    My sportec stage 3 (with the ICs) did 100-200 6.1secs on the vbox and 200-300 in about 13-14 seconds (stopwatch). It was nowhere near that before.
    Those numbers are consistent with the 620hp sportec stage 3 (no ICs) is that they are 0.3 or so faster 0-200 and 2-3 seconds faster the 300kms.
    One thing to mention though, with the addition of the ICs they had to retune the ecu to accomadate for the airflow difference (and also with even more reduced backpressure of the CG exhaust).


    There is no doubt your car is very fast with those numbers but (if I read the sequence of mods correctly) if the exhaust went on at the same time as the EVOMS I/Cs then it "could" be the exhaust giving you ALL the gains. The good exhausts make a massive difference on a stock car and one with increased boost to flow the difference would be even greater.....
    No point chewing it, best wait for you to plug in your reader - one decent run up through 5th to 7Krpm will give you an idea but problem is even if your IATs are decent in this scenario, it doesn't prove the EVOMS units are doing this, you need to do the same with the stock units to prove it
    But at least you will no that you are not losing any performance and the Secan's can stay on the shelf

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Yeah I ll do that when I get the durametric.. (Will need to find a road without cameras in the uk though..).
    Actually I changed the exhaust first and then after a week or 10 days the ICs. Sportec measures 20hp gain for their exhaust on average which is the case more or less with other exhausts.
    When I changed the ICs I felt a difference immediately but then again that's all subjective..
    However there is no way upgrading from a already converted stock exhaust to an after mkt gave 50hp (albeit on a dyno run..).
    Just to make clear, with custom ecu tuning, stock but converted exhaust (racing cats), large vtgs, and no modded ICs, car made 600 crank hp on dyno but more like 560hp really on the road. That was measured about a dozen times with vbox and is consistent with half a dozen races with a 996tt cab with 570hp. We went neck to neck.. 0-200kms was measured at like high tens at best. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed with performance then.
    After CG/ Evoms and new custom tuning, car showed 650hp on dyno and felt like 650hp on the road.

    In any case you can check out those runs taken the day I got the car at www.youtube.com/tsakg1.
    100-200 was verified at 6.1sec on vbox. 2 passengers, 50kgs of luggage, full tank, 25-30 deg ambient. That was a different car to before. Could this be just the CG stage 1 exhaust alone? I doubt it.. And from what I was told, my sceptical tuner also accepted - reluctantly- that the ICs did make a difference.
    I guess when I ll be able to measure IATs we ll get a better picture.
    TB993tt I doubt I ll get anything over 15degs celcius in the uk in the near future for a run (given it ll have to be evening). Will those IAT readings be any meaningfull when ambient temp is that low to begin with?

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    Quote:
    GT said: Will those IAT readings be any meaningfull when ambient temp is that low to begin with?



    I guess it depends what we are trying to find out ? If the IAT stays under 40DegC (15DegC ambient) when you do your best to heat it up within the confines of the UK it tells you that your set up is fine for this type of environment.

    Doing a full bore Autobahn run in 30+DegC is the real test for a road car I guess ?
    I know LAT (who posts on here) reported IATs of 70DegC (30+ambient) for his Ruf CTR2 (993 base) at ~320kph on the 'bahn. The fact his car will reach those speeds without melting speaks volumes but it must be at the limit of timing pull and would have been ~50hp down on its DIN rating.
    Those of us who have run our cars over 300kph know how tortuous the last 10-15 seconds (from 250kph upwards) of maximum load are on the car with the aerodynamic drag providing the sort of extra loading not experienced in third gear - IMO the 997tt has a big helping hand in this respect due to its relatively slippy shape compared to previous tts.....

    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

     Well it's hard to find good information about intercoolers but a friend of mine builds intercoolers for a German tuner and all testing is done on my car,I log all results with Durametric.These intercoolers have the same dimensions like oem,you just need to shave a little bit of from the plastic ducts,you also have to do this for all aftermarket  Ic's

    Here are the results with stock Ic's

    0to250stockicsxxxfinal.jpg

    You can see a raise of 40.5 degrees celcius at 244km/h

    Here is a test with my Ic's:

    TEST GOEDE IC2.JPG

    At 279km/h it only raises temperature with 20.3 degrees celcius wich is a huge improvement over stock


    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

     Forgot to show a picture from the intercoolers,here you go:

    PICT0008-1.jpg


    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

    dixie:

     Forgot to show a picture from the intercoolers,here you go:

    PICT0008-1.jpg

     Those sandcast aluminium collectors look rather thick-walled. Are the intercoolers heavier than the OEM parts? 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Intercoolers? Secan? Evoms?

     The whole intercoolers are made from aluminium and the oem ones have plastic end tanks so the oem ones will be lighter but the function of intercoolers is to reduce intake temperatures wich oem ones aren't very good at.


     
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