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    Interesting Perspective

    This was posted on the Vette board. Just wonder what is your take on this. Is the author exaggerating this?
    Quote:
    by Dr. Bud E. Bryan


    Road Kill is one man's musings about life, love and automobiles, not necessarily in that order. Dr. Bryan is a bit of a loose cannon (and that would be different than how?-ed.), so his stories will be sporadic, sometimes chaotic, but hopefully, always entertaining. He has racing experience, life experience and other experiences we don't really care to know about, actually. We don't know what he is a Dr. of exactly, either (he gets kind of "excitable" when pressed), so we don't go there. At any rate, here goes...



    The Whole Damn Sports Car World Has Been Turned Upside Down.

    Austin, Texas. After seeing how Porsche has run into a buzz saw of quizzical buyers with the pricing of its new Cayman S, I really have to wonder what these guys are thinkin' half the time. I mean, we know the Cayenne was a short-term calculated offensive to grab whatever leftover SUV dollars Porsche could get their hands on, and it worked - for a while. But as Peter predicted many, many times in this publication, any profitability derived from the Cayenne would be short-lived - and the long term damage to Porsche's reputation and brand image would be devastating. He was so right, it's scary. But to me, the Porsche implosion started even before the Cayenne, when the boys from Zuffenhausen decided to "fix" the 911.

    When I first drove the '99 911, I thought, "Wow, they fixed all of the little things that needed to be fixed." But my favorable first impression of the car quickly faded when I began to realize that all of those little fixes, combined with its new, larger size, had basically sterilized the car to the point of being, of all things, coldly un-involving. What once was a taut and nimble little beast that would reward expert man-handling with a responsiveness and agility that was uncanny, and at the same time would penalize a ham-fisted driver with a quick wake-up slap (or send them off the road backwards), was now a benign sports car that had lost its soul. And every time I've driven a newer 911 since (I'm not lumping the GT3 into this discussion since Porsche has managed to not screw that up), I haven't changed my mind in the least.

    Let me put it this way, when a new production Corvette is lighter and as fast as any standard 911 you can buy, and the Corvette ZO6 is lighter and faster still - then the whole damn sports car world has been turned upside down. Corvettes were always big-engined monsters that were heavy and lacked the agility of a 911. They were fast alright, but a well-driven 911 could out-brake and generally spank a Corvette on a road course. That is no longer the case, however. The current model-year 911 may have been sharpened a whole bunch over its immediate predecessors, but there's no denying the fact that it's a bigger, heavier car that lacks the connectivity that the earlier, rowdier 911s had in spades. And as Chris Rock likes to say, that ain't right.

    While Porsche was figuring out how to make more money by churning out more and more models, they were forgetting what got them here in the first place. Yeah, the $400,000+ GT is a sensational car. But it damn well better be for that kind of money. But I'm more impressed with what a standard Corvette can do for the money. And the new Corvette ZO6 may just be the most impressive sports car in the world as it sits - and when you take into account the performance, value and fuel economy aspect of the equation, I don't think you can touch it.

    If Porsche is to get its mojo back, they better de-content the Cayman S so it's cheaper than the Boxster S. And they can forego the development of the Panamera sedan for a while as far as I'm concerned, at least until they can come out with a new, smaller, "proper" 911. And they can trim their prices across the board while they're at it too. Not that any of that's going to happen mind you, because Porsche is big on the money thing but seriously lacking in the vision thing - and they prove that time and time again.

    But, come to think of it, having the sports car world turned upside down is not such a bad thing from where I sit. To have Corvette teach Porsche a thing or three about value and performance after all these years is a pretty fascinating - and gratifying - thing to watch.

    Adios until the next time.


    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Hmmm, If I didn't have kids I would have bought a Corvette. To me it offered the best deal. But do I feel Porsche is loosing something, no. I like the idea of the Cayman and the Cayenne as Porsche will not survive on the 911 alone. To me the Cayman, Boxter, and Cayenne brings new customers to Porsche and to me that is all good. My first BMW was an X5. After that I got a 540 and then a 745. I was and still am a BMW fan. I think you will see similar things with people buying the Cayman.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Also looks like one man's opinion.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    That is just a pile of crap. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about how to make a sportscar - rather, it has been the other way around for decades, and GM is finally beginning to catch on. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about value either. Porsche is one of the most profitable automobile manufacturers in the world. GM? NOT.

    No Vette will outbreak a 911 or provide the tactile feel of a 911. The writer suggests that the Vette is a challenger in terms of velocity too (and that it is), yet it requires a much larger power to weight ratio to do so - the flat 6 with rear engine design is a much more thrifty way of getting that straightline performance.

    I'm also tired of this concept that we must lament the new 911's because they are not as sporty as their predecessors. Is a 1975 or 1985 911 or 993 any more challenging to drive at the limit? No - but the limit is higher for the 997. The 997 is simply a better car than any of it's predecessors, and I would rather drive the better car.

    Oh but the GT3 had it right? What a pile. The current 997S is close to a GT3 in performance while still offering mind blowing everyday driveability, yet that car has it all wrong? I'm not saying that the 997S is as great a driver as the GT3 - just that the 997S is 90% of a GT3 PLUS a great daily driver.

    A Vette is a great car, and it does offer an attractive package for the price, but it's certainly not turning the sportscar world, nor Porsche's world, nor my world for that matter, upside down.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    That is just a pile of crap. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about how to make a sportscar - rather, it has been the other way around for decades, and GM is finally beginning to catch on. GM is not teaching Porsche anything about value either. Porsche is one of the most profitable automobile manufacturers in the world. GM? NOT.


    GM is not. But the Corvette division is. It is by far the most successful car brand in US history. 50+years of royal following and you have to give it some credit. Yes, as a whole the GM bus. model is in the tank. But tha is mostly due to their pension and health care plans for their workers. They could easily be the No.1 automaker again if they somehow shed those responsibilities that their competitors are not burdened with. Of course, it's easy said than done.

    As to the new Z06, it is IMHO setting the whole sportscar world on its side if not upside down. You can deny it yourself. But the fact is that someone came to the plate and hit one out of the park. $70 grand for a car that perforce up-to or better than anything under $200,000. That is pretty significant.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Back on topic. I was wondering if there is a way to make the regular 997's lighter and not suffering too much of the creature comfort. I'd say a 3200 LB 997 will kick ass. The current wieght is just too clumsy.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    So, what is your point here? You like Vette a lot, so what?
    In Europe Vette is not and will not be anything significant... That is the FACT.
    BTW, is it only me or are we having too many Vette fans here on Rennteam trying to tell us that Vette is better then Porsche's? Strange that all of them decided to post on this forum...

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    A very naive perspective of Porsche. the Cayenne has been a great image builder, it is the ultimate all road car no X5; ML; Tuareg; Range Rover will ever come close in terms of dynamics and off road capability in ONE car, they need three cars to do one cayennes job. Its a fact its the Fastest, best on road drive and closest to the Rang Rovers off road capability and that was withought Off Road Pack and with it will beat a Range Rover on its own turf and still offer more just like it did with the X5 4,8is and AMG Ml`s. It just shows Porsches great engineering ability.

    Panamericana is no new story, Porsche planned on building a four door saloon in the mid 80`s.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    They could easily be the No.1 automaker again if they somehow shed those responsibilities that their competitors are not burdened with.



    I'd be more inclined to believe that if GM were currently building products which people were inclined to buy without deep discounts.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    I was wondering if there is a way to make the regular 997's lighter and not suffering too much of the creature comfort. I'd say a 3200 LB 997 will kick ass.



    Why do you ask? From your above post I would have thought you'd be driving a Corvette.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    So, what is your point here? You like Vette a lot, so what?
    In Europe Vette is not and will not be anything significant... That is the FACT.
    BTW, is it only me or are we having too many Vette fans here on Rennteam trying to tell us that Vette is better then Porsche's? Strange that all of them decided to post on this forum...

    Hey, Mr. Croatian, stop being so defensive. So, all you only want to hear are praises?

    I like the 911's too. Now the new Z06 one-upped it, I would like to see Porsche respond by offering a 500+hp 3100 LB rocket that doesn't cost a half a million dollars. The new 997TT looks great. it's just a little too heavy. 3,450LB is not good.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    WW, I am not defensive at all! I respect Z06 very much as I said in another thread... It offeres excellent Price/Performance level IMO. But, IMO your thread do not belong on 997 forum-you could post it on Sportscar forum instead...

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Hey, corvette fanboys, do us a favor and stick to a single topic, ok?
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...e=0&fpart=1

    FFS, this board is turning into a Porsche vs Z06 forum, EVERY THREAD goes to sh*t repeating over and over again the same bullshit.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    WW said:
    I was wondering if there is a way to make the regular 997's lighter and not suffering too much of the creature comfort. I'd say a 3200 LB 997 will kick ass.



    Why do you ask? From your above post I would have thought you'd be driving a Corvette.

    I may drive the 911 if they make one faster than the new Z

    Seriously, they should get rid of the backseats for the 997tt. No one ever uses them anyway. Let's use more carbon fiber. Get rid of the AWD, or at least make it an option. It would save about 200lb. Better yet, make it like vette, putting in a aluminum space frame. Then it would be a 3,000lb. It may raise the price a little, but it would outgun the new Z06.

    Re: Interesting Perspective


    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Hey, corvette fanboys, do us a favor and stick to a single topic, ok?
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...e=0&fpart=1

    FFS, this board is turning into a Porsche vs Z06 forum, EVERY THREAD goes to sh*t repeating over and over again the same bullshit.

    Why are you so against a little debate? This is a forum after all. Are you afraid that people will eventualy learn more baout each car? I am offereing my perspective on how a 997TT would really rock. It just may help the prosche brass see more light.

    Stop running this place like a townhall meeting in North Korea. Be a little tolerant and you may change my mind about the new 997.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Ehhhhh, as a totally unbiased kinda guy (I used to drive a '93 Corvette, but I haven't been able to warm up to the C5's or C6's), I think he's just as guilty of missing the point, as he's accusing Porsche of being guilty. I'll agree with him, there was something basic and involving and palpable about my 993 that isn't present in my 997....but....the reason I dislike C5's and C6's so much, is that they suffer from the same exact disease, ONLY MORE SO. When he preaches value, he's just talking numbers, he's being one-dimensional. Real-life, multi-dimensional, the "value" rich Corvette has ZERO soul. The steering is as numb as can be, the engine sound is abysmal, the road-feel is remote, and the styling is awkward and cartoonish. There's nothing classic, iconic, involving, artistic, about it. It's just a soul-less car riding the coattails of a WELL DESERVED glorious past from the 50's and 60's (when the cars really DID have soul, and were genuine art, inside and out). It continues to pull a strong following riding those coattails, and by virtue of being CHEAP SPEED. And hey, that may well be a good recipe for ongoing profits, who knows...

    But to me, the Porsche still has the ingredients it had when I fell in love as a kid. It still has the sharpest most involving steering on the planet. It still communicates the road in a way that I find nowhere else. And it's still a thing of absolute beauty and art, as opposed to the C6, which combines tacky batmobile stying with a big wind-tunnel-dictated butt so it doesn't get squirrely at speed. It's a clumsy looking mutation, at best.

    When price is an issue, there's no doubting that the Corvette has an attraction to those who want world-class performance, but just can't step up to the FULL package that a 911 represents, or other cars that are yet pricier. It'll get you around the track just as fast, and.....that's about all you can say. The rest of the car suffers from Chevy's addiction to appealing to the NASCAR demographic.

    Z06?? That would be a fun toy. I could see myself having one for a year or so, and once I had gotten tired of flogging it, it would get sold. Conversely, if I bought a Ford GT, I'd keep it for life. Same relative performance, but one is a piece of automotive art, the other is just a hard-charger in a dime-store wrapper. One's a wife you would spend the rest of your life with, the other is a cheap hooker that gets the job done I suppose.

    So there's my rebuttal to Dr. Bud. I don't feel that the sports car world has been turned upside down at all. Fact is, Chevy could build a 800 h.p. Corvette for $50 friggin grand, and the only people who would want to be seen in the contraption would be the same people who drive them already, given the current state of the car's styling and dynamics and overall package. Meanwhile, Porsche continues to improve on its classic. If Chevy would have had the foresight to see the timeless and iconic spirit of the 1963-1967 Corvettes, and focused their efforts for the ensuing 40 years improving on THAT classic, then they would be on-par with Porsche, and I would probably be driving one of those suckers today, instead of the Porsche. I also really liked my '93 C4 6-speed. It worked well, and it had a clean and classy design inside and out. Today's Corvettes are less involving to drive, more numb, and horrid to look at. If that's what's turning the sports car world "upside down", well then, that also explains violent demonstrations over cartoons, and pants around the knees with boxer shorts being cool. The whole world is turning upside down.

    I wish that Chevy would build a Corvette that was both superior on the track, AND something that I would actually enjoy driving and looking at. Put THAT on four wheels, and charge $50 grand for it, and I'll see you down at the Chevy dealer, and I'll even endure the sleezeball cheeseball sales-hacks I gotta work with to write up the deal.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    So, what is your point here? You like Vette a lot, so what?
    In Europe Vette is not and will not be anything significant... That is the FACT.
    BTW, is it only me or are we having too many Vette fans here on Rennteam trying to tell us that Vette is better then Porsche's? Strange that all of them decided to post on this forum...

    Hey, Mr. Croatian, stop being so defensive. So, all you only want to hear are praises?

    I like the 911's too. Now the new Z06 one-upped it, I would like to see Porsche respond by offering a 500+hp 3100 LB rocket that doesn't cost a half a million dollars. The new 997TT looks great. it's just a little too heavy. 3,450LB is not good.



    There has to also be a reality in terms of comfort, safety, apperance and marketability...

    I mean, if you take Porsche engineers and tell them to make a box that goes fast, I'm sure they could get the dynamics down, but that's not the image of the company and that's not the image of the buyer...

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Two words: "leaf springs"

    A horse and cart has more advanced suspension!

    This car may go well in a straight line, but put it on a European road with actual 'bends' in it and you'll suddenly realize you do actually get what you pay for in life!

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that a Corvette forum somewhere has been having an early spring cleanout and locking out some of its more troublesome posters, so they are moving over to rennteam?

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Brilliant Hurst, you're exactly right.

    Busch beer gets you just as drunk as Sam Adams, for less. But Busch makes me gag when I taste it.

    A fine brewer like Sam Adams could make a cheap beer to take on Busch, and sell a ton of it, but they would also lose their identity.

    I always see the good ole boys at the local wing&beer joing giving me the look when I order a good beer in a bottle, instead of getting a pitcher filled with skunk-water for a 1/3 the price. Don't I want to get drunk? SURE!!! But there's a point where the beverage needs to be enjoyable to drink...

    That's why I'm paying more to drive a 911 today, instead of just continuing on with the Corvette thing I started back in '93.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Two words: "leaf springs"

    A horse and cart has more advanced suspension!

    This car may go well in a straight line, but put it on a European road with actual 'bends' in it and you'll suddenly realize you do actually get what you pay for in life!



    I've gotta call you out Alex. Your post is ridiculous. Racing and handling is about what works, not which method is more chic or modern... Besides, the fact that you put "springs" as plural goes to show you know absolutely nothing about the Corvette suspension.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Yes, maybe its time to do some spring cleaning ourselves if this keeps up

    I have lost the desire to even participate in these vette threads, being a waste of time in trying to even argue... in the end a vette is still a vette.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Two words: "leaf springs"

    A horse and cart has more advanced suspension!

    This car may go well in a straight line, but put it on a European road with actual 'bends' in it and you'll suddenly realize you do actually get what you pay for in life!



    I've gotta call you out Alex. Your post is ridiculous. Racing and handling is about what works, not which method is more chic or modern... Besides, the fact that you put "springs" as plural goes to show you know absolutely nothing about the Corvette suspension.



    I'm sorry: "a transverse leaf spring at either end" ... better? Still going to be pretty crude in it's reactions even on the smoothest of roads. So fine for flat race tracks, not so fine for real world public roads.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Value for the money, the Corvette is tough to beat, no question. But the 911 is a better car, period. Yes, losing the true dry sump engine when we went to water cooling "cheapens" the car and makes Porsche more profitable.

    But as Porsche builds and sells more 911s, what has happened? More people are using them as daily drivers rather than as weekends only or for track days. As such, arguably, you don't need a $30k dry sump engine in the car because unless you are putting on a set of Hoosiers and are one of the top 10% of the fastest guys around the track, oil starvation will not be an issue. If you are one of the top 10%, buy a GT3, problem solved.

    Drive a Vette and drive a 911 and it is clear which car you would want to live with every day. If this is the best Vette yet, take it over a set of railroad tracks to watch and feel the whole car quiver, then do the same in a 911. Feel how ponderous the Vette is through a set of cones on an autocross, and how the tail wants to snap out on you.

    It's not just about how fast you go, but how you go fast. And I would much rather be in a 911 at 100 MPH+ than in a Corvette.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    WW said:
    Why are you so against a little debate? This is a forum after all. Are you afraid that people will eventualy learn more baout each car? I am offereing my perspective on how a 997TT would really rock. It just may help the prosche brass see more light.

    Stop running this place like a townhall meeting in North Korea. Be a little tolerant and you may change my mind about the new 997.


    I kinda' lost interest in this matter at about 9000 identical threads ago.
    Not to mention another thread ON THIS VERY ISSUE- that collumn.
    You CAN browse the older threads, even though you just joined. If there is something you have to say, something that hasn't been said in one of the 9000 'porsche vs z06' threads, then by all means, go ahead. Otherwise you're just adding to the background noise.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Corvettes lost their luster decades ago, 911's have not. Take a look at the different types of people buying each of these cars - chances are you won't find them at both dealerships.

    The whole 911 vs. Z06 is getting old

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Two words: "leaf springs"

    A horse and cart has more advanced suspension!

    This car may go well in a straight line, but put it on a European road with actual 'bends' in it and you'll suddenly realize you do actually get what you pay for in life!



    I've gotta call you out Alex. Your post is ridiculous. Racing and handling is about what works, not which method is more chic or modern... Besides, the fact that you put "springs" as plural goes to show you know absolutely nothing about the Corvette suspension.

    Refreshing to have a objective mind on the porsche board.

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Take a drive in a C6, and you'll find out why it's worth at least another $30-40K+ to get a 997. In the 'Vette, you don't feel connected to the road like you do in a 997. And the brakes on the 997 will beat any offered on the C6. Sure, a 'Vette will eventually outpace a 997 on a course with long straights, but a world class sports car has got to do more than that.

    Jim

    Re: Interesting Perspective

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    I'm sorry: "a transverse leaf spring at either end" ... better? Still going to be pretty crude in it's reactions even on the smoothest of roads. So fine for flat race tracks, not so fine for real world public roads.



    No, not better. It's ONE transverse leaf spring in the rear, period, and it's damn effective and refined. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, yet you ASSUME that there's some relationship between the suspension setup on the Corvette, and that of a 1975 AMC Gremlin, and that the Corvette must be crude on rough roads by virtue of using a leaf spring... That is highly naive commentary I'm afraid. Fact is, the Corvette's ability to absorb bumps in the road, and stay planted and poised, is world-class. It's the bushing, damping and the chassis rigidity that doesn't quite make it, it's the details. Has not a damn thing to do with the rear suspension geometry. You hear "leaf spring", and you jump to a false conclusion, a stereotype. Ya probably think that the Z06 engine is "crude and archaic" because it's got pushrods too.... Sorry I'm being so harsh, but if we're going to proudly defend ourselves against the Vette guys, least we can do is be half-way educated about it...

     
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