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    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Well, now I am aware of some other guys on RT who think the same way as Leawood911 ;) That's good to know.

    In a way, it's a good thing. It shows that people won't just accept the 991 just because it is the new model. They will assess it on merit.

    I think it's interesting to note that some of the guys who expressed criticism of the interior are people who have a 997 and don't appear to be planning to replace it with a 991. So it's just possible that their own purchase plans may be affecting their assessment.

    Alternatively, one could argue that their assessment is what is determining their purchase plans.

    Still, it's all part of healthy debate :)


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    easy_rider911:


    I think it's interesting to note that some of the guys who expressed criticism of the interior are people who have a 997 and don't appear to be planning to replace it with a 991. So it's just possible that their own purchase plans may be affecting their assessment.

    Alternatively, one could argue that their assessment is what is determining their purchase plans.
     

    Easy - you have rationalized the irrationality of personal taste, perfectly... 

     


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    I guess one would have to ask someone from the outside who does not know which car is the newer car which interior looks the best. 

    At any rate, the interior is NOT a prime consideration for me.  Nor are things like color or options.

    The question is - does the performance of the 7 speed manual improve that much over my car (mine 3.9 0-60 when tested by Road and track in 2005 + I have the PCCB as for a little extra)? 

    Is the lack of a real emergency brake an issue (YES!)   do I want a sunroof that sticks out?  A electric steering wheel? No to both.

    Does it seem to be made cheaper (YES).  The car is just getting too complicated and formal looking to be a sports car.  Feel like I should wear a suit or tux to go out in it.

    For the same money I could get a very slightly used 997 GT3 RS!  It will be a better car and hold its value better than a bone stock 991S.  Just don't think it is worth the trade at this point.

    New porsches have always been for people who don't care so much about money.  Now it seems that Porsche is taking a little too much advantage of this given the price and quality.  I am pleased there are those buyers. Makes for good depreciation if someone always has to have the latest.

    I would be happy with a nice '84 if it ran well and was in top condition.  It is all about the feel.  The 991 is not that special, sorry. 

     

    Lastly, my dealer is a real gem - NOT.  The salesman, who had no other customers, did not even hardly speak to me eventhough I pulled up in my car.  I asked him a simple question and it was clear he knew nothing about the product.  He did tell me he went to California to 'train' on the car, lol. (The dealer has an add running for the new 991 with a picture of the 997.2 - this is for the AUTO SHOW in town! For the recent launch event at the dealership they also used a picture of the 997!  For years they woud advertise the 911 with a V6!)  I would not even bother to ask for a test drive.  They are clowns.  I would go out of my way to never give them any of my business.  ARISTOCRAT Motors - the name says it all. 


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Hey Leawood,

    Everywhere I look on my 997S interior dashboard, if it's not leather, it's plastic.  Maybe your point is not that it is plastic but that it looks cheap.  Ok., next time I visit my dealer, I'll take a closer look.  But the improvement that I see going from a 997 to a 991 is the supposed improvement in handling (I haven't test drove one personally yet).  The significant improvement in the Ring time is very appealing, not to mention the significant bump in hp from the 997.1 to the 991.  Also, I'm interested for the first time in the PDK, as I believe that it has been improved since the 997.  Lastly, I really like the exterior styling of the 991 over the 997.  It 'looks' more modern.

    As far as steering, do you remember the 'controversy' we had with respect to the 997's variable ratio steering wheel?  How many people are still complaining about it?  Probably zero.  I say give the 991 steering a try and see if you even notice.

    Anyways, I agree that having a $120K 991, w/o full leather and PCCB's is a bit of sticker shock for those like you and me that have the first year 997.  But my target next vehicle is the 991 turbo, so I will have a huge sticker shock coming up..

    Cheers.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    What I see in the 991 is standardization across an increasingly large model range, something that did not exist previously.  Mass production for Porsche was an issue for enthusiasts in previous years because Porsche was being compared w/ Ferrari, not GM or Toyota. Mass production is an element of 991 design and production as it is now a member of a Porsche family that includes vehicles other than sports cars, and in turn Porsche is a member of a large corporate automotive group.  The Porsche brand is now the unifying element across the production line, and with emerging markets where there is no previous history or track record (sales or motorsports) the significance of brand recognition and identification takes on ever greater importance. Let me ask this question.  If the 991 handles so neutrally and balanced why bother w/ the rear engine layout at all?  It seems to me that  the challenge and entertainment of the 911 configuration resides precisely in those rear engine "vices" that have been engineered out.  For my part it's irrelevant since I plan to keep my 997.2 and I'm sure new customers will be more than satisified w/ the 991.  As times change some things are lost and others are gained.


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    SoCal Alan, you can count me as one who doesn't like the variable rack.  I would much prefer the 986 steering on my 987


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Check out the new 991 RUFs!!!!! They are seriously hot! The new rear bumpers are really nice, and hide a lot of the bulge. AND, it looks like full engine access may be available, see here! 

    http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/gt/70337-geneva-2012-ruf-automobile-set-dazzle-4.html


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Carrara:

    Check out the new 991 RUFs!!!!! They are seriously hot! The new rear bumpers are really nice, and hide a lot of the bulge. AND, it looks like full engine access may be available, see here! 

    http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/gt/70337-geneva-2012-ruf-automobile-set-dazzle-4.html

     wowser - racing yellow is seriously hot!  Its fast becoming my favourite colour for the 991.

    I dont think that RUF tail looks that radically different from the OEM aerokit either...


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    So I test-drove a 991s today. A disappointment really. The main issue for me is that, compared to its predecessors, from a 1973 RS to the 997, it "feels" awkwardly different. Less of a Porsche, is the only way to put it.

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

    It is impossible to fully get the feel of a car like this on Swiss roads but I found a short hill-climb near the dealership, where staying within the speed limit still allowed for a bit of spirited cornering. I can't say how the electro-mechanical steering fares if you ever manage to get the car sideways but I can emphatically say that it makes for an unacceptably vague corner entry. If, as they say, there is none of the old understeering tendency, you wouldn't know it: most often, all you can do is trust that the front tires are doing what you imagine they should do. I imagine that once you get past this lack of information and decide to "trust" the car, it rewards you up to a point; but this is akin to trusting your parachute, instead of commandeering your airplane. 

    Another issue, with the PDK equipped car: It is one thing to have your engine cutoff at the traffic lights (incidentally, I wonder how this trend with new cars translates to service costs - surely all this on-and-off increases wear and tear for the starter et al?). It is another to be rolling down a road, effectively in utter silence, in a 911, because the engine has decided to disengage, waiting for you to touch the brake so that it may rev up again.

    I never expected the day would come when I would feel relieved to climb out of any 911 and into my trusty (albeit improved) old 986! But this is exactly how the test-drive ended today.


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

     Unfortunately, I totally agree and really hope they return to hydraulic steering (maybe with pump driven by electric motor like the 997 Cup) for the GT3.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    So I test-drove a 991s today. A disappointment really. The main issue for me is that, compared to its predecessors, from a 1973 RS to the 997, it "feels" awkwardly different. Less of a Porsche, is the only way to put it.

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

    It is impossible to fully get the feel of a car like this on Swiss roads but I found a short hill-climb near the dealership, where staying within the speed limit still allowed for a bit of spirited cornering. I can't say how the electro-mechanical steering fares if you ever manage to get the car sideways but I can emphatically say that it makes for an unacceptably vague corner entry. If, as they say, there is none of the old understeering tendency, you wouldn't know it: most often, all you can do is trust that the front tires are doing what you imagine they should do. I imagine that once you get past this lack of information and decide to "trust" the car, it rewards you up to a point; but this is akin to trusting your parachute, instead of commandeering your airplane. 

    Costas, yours is the strictest critique of the new steering I have read or heard so far, either on Rennteam, various magazines or from other people I know Smiley. Some others even liked the electric steering more than the 997's.

    Was the car on winter tyres which generally reduce the feel? Did the car have the Power Steering Plus option that makes steering lighter at lower speeds?

    There must be some explanation for your dissatisfaction. I don't think Porsche could have signed off a system as bad as you describe.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    So I test-drove a 991s today. A disappointment really. The main issue for me is that, compared to its predecessors, from a 1973 RS to the 997, it "feels" awkwardly different. Less of a Porsche, is the only way to put it.

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

    It is impossible to fully get the feel of a car like this on Swiss roads but I found a short hill-climb near the dealership, where staying within the speed limit still allowed for a bit of spirited cornering. I can't say how the electro-mechanical steering fares if you ever manage to get the car sideways but I can emphatically say that it makes for an unacceptably vague corner entry. If, as they say, there is none of the old understeering tendency, you wouldn't know it: most often, all you can do is trust that the front tires are doing what you imagine they should do. I imagine that once you get past this lack of information and decide to "trust" the car, it rewards you up to a point; but this is akin to trusting your parachute, instead of commandeering your airplane. 

    Another issue, with the PDK equipped car: It is one thing to have your engine cutoff at the traffic lights (incidentally, I wonder how this trend with new cars translates to service costs - surely all this on-and-off increases wear and tear for the starter et al?). It is another to be rolling down a road, effectively in utter silence, in a 911, because the engine has decided to disengage, waiting for you to touch the brake so that it may rev up again.

    I never expected the day would come when I would feel relieved to climb out of any 911 and into my trusty (albeit improved) old 986! But this is exactly how the test-drive ended today.

    Let's meet one of these days  to discuss your impressions Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Hi, yes, to avoid any misunderstanding: I am not suggesting the steering is actually bad, by any standards. The issue is subjective and a matter of personal preference. I suppose I just needed to share my impressions because I was really expecting it to be quite something to drive.

    I don't know if it had the Power Steering Plus option - it is an important point. I will ask the dealer.

    The car was on winter tires but, then again, I drove there in a BMW 335 which was also on winter tires but the steering felt just fine (dare I say even more engaging? just the steering of course).

    Anyway, like I said, I am sure there are many people who actually love the new steering and with good reason. I am a bit "hardcore" in what I look for in a Porsche - i.e., I could live with a GT3 as a daily driver :) :).

     


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Gnil:

    Let's meet one of these days  to discuss your impressions Smiley

    With pleasure! I will be going to the show too, probably on Thursday afternoon, but I saw in another thread that you will be there in the morning?

    In any case, I will PM when I have scheduled it. Smiley


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    Hi, yes, to avoid any misunderstanding: I am not suggesting the steering is actually bad, by any standards. The issue is subjective and a matter of personal preference. I suppose I just needed to share my impressions because I was really expecting it to be quite something to drive.

    I don't know if it had the Power Steering Plus option - it is an important point. I will ask the dealer.

    The car was on winter tires but, then again, I drove there in a BMW 335 which was also on winter tires but the steering felt just fine (dare I say even more engaging? just the steering of course).

    Anyway, like I said, I am sure there are many people who actually love the new steering and with good reason. I am a bit "hardcore" in what I look for in a Porsche - i.e., I could live with a GT3 as a daily driver :) :).

     

    Thank you for your clarifications, which make sense Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    Hi, yes, to avoid any misunderstanding: I am not suggesting the steering is actually bad, by any standards. The issue is subjective and a matter of personal preference. I suppose I just needed to share my impressions because I was really expecting it to be quite something to drive.

    I don't know if it had the Power Steering Plus option - it is an important point. I will ask the dealer.

    The car was on winter tires but, then again, I drove there in a BMW 335 which was also on winter tires but the steering felt just fine (dare I say even more engaging? just the steering of course).

    Anyway, like I said, I am sure there are many people who actually love the new steering and with good reason. I am a bit "hardcore" in what I look for in a Porsche - i.e., I could live with a GT3 as a daily driver :) :).

     

    +1 Smiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:  The car was on winter tires but, then again, I drove there in a BMW 335 which was also on winter tires but the steering felt just fine (dare I say even more engaging? just the steering of course).

     

    The 991 that I drove also had winter tires - maybe this is a big problem.  I'll look forward to trying one again in the Spring with better rubber...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    @Aviator: thanks v much for your impressions. You seem to confirm what the Top Gear presenters all said: they all hated the steering on the new 991.

    More and more, it seems that hardcore Porsche enthusiasts will have to take refuge in the GT models as it seems that the rest of the range is being gradually re-positioned in the mainstream market.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    easy_rider911:

    @Aviator: thanks v much for your impressions. You seem to confirm what the Top Gear presenters all said: they all hated the steering on the new 991.

    More and more, it seems that hardcore Porsche enthusiasts will have to take refuge in the GT models as it seems that the rest of the range is being gradually re-positioned in the mainstream market.

    The GT models will also get the electric steering. It might be set up differently and if it is proven that this is what the rest of the 911 buyers want, it will be changed in the next model years. With electric steering, the engineers can easily alter its characteristics or even introduce various modes at the press of a button (which in the case of the 991, they have opted not to do).

    However, I take note of what Herr August Achleitner said in an interview. That the Power Steering Plus is for comfort and that the sporting driver should opt for the standard system. Most of the Press cars have the PS+. Assistance is speed related (like Parameter steering) and if you take a tight curve or a hairpin at low speed (say 80 or 90km/h) the feel would appear very light and remote. Has anyone driven the two systems back to back for comparison?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:

    The GT models will also get the electric steering. It might be set up differently and if it is proven that this is what the rest of the 911 buyers want, it will be changed in the next model years. With electric steering, the engineers can easily alter its characteristics or even introduce various modes at the press of a button (which in the case of the 991, they have opted not to do).--

    "Form follows function"

     It is true that it is easy to offer a push-button control of the electric steering.  Many cars already include this function (BMW, Audi, new Mustang, etc.).  However, this feature only affects the amount of servo assist (and in some cases the steering ratio).  However, no electric steering system (no matter what setting chosen) has ever provided the level of feel and feedback provided by a good hydraulic system (which itself is a huge compromise from a manual rack).

    If Porsche insists on using electric steering on its GT models, I think they will lose many customers (myself included).  I agree the 991 is the finest electric system in existence, but it is a big compromise from the steering used in last year's models and it only provides 1/3 of 1 mpg improvement in fuel economy.  I think GT owners would be happy to make that sacrifice!


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:
    [..] Most of the Press cars have the PS+. Assistance is speed related (like Parameter steering) and if you take a tight curve or a hairpin at low speed (say 80 or 90km/h) the feel would appear very light and remote [..]

    On the road I had available, I was able to corner hard but never over 90 km/h. It would be a real shame if everyone's negative impressions (including the press) are mostly due to this PSP option! 

    I have emailed the dealership to ask what  was on the car which I drove.

     

     


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    reginos:

    The GT models will also get the electric steering. It might be set up differently and if it is proven that this is what the rest of the 911 buyers want, it will be changed in the next model years. With electric steering, the engineers can easily alter its characteristics or even introduce various modes at the press of a button (which in the case of the 991, they have opted not to do).--

    "Form follows function"

     It is true that it is easy to offer a push-button control of the electric steering.  Many cars already include this function (BMW, Audi, new Mustang, etc.).  However, this feature only affects the amount of servo assist (and in some cases the steering ratio).  However, no electric steering system (no matter what setting chosen) has ever provided the level of feel and feedback provided by a good hydraulic system (which itself is a huge compromise from a manual rack).

    If Porsche insists on using electric steering on its GT models, I think they will lose many customers (myself included).  I agree the 991 is the finest electric system in existence, but it is a big compromise from the steering used in last year's models and it only provides 1/3 of 1 mpg improvement in fuel economy.  I think GT owners would be happy to make that sacrifice!


    It's a difficult one for Porsche, definitely, given some of the comments in the Press and elsewhere.

    IMO the 997 steering is perfect at any speed from parking maneuvers to 200+km/h. I don't understand why they changed it. However, once they decided to go electric there is no turning back.

    From the marketing point of view, if they offered conventional steering on the GT cars it will be taken by customers that the new system is no good for its purpose, because even owners of basic 911s or Boxsters still have high sporty expectations from their cars.

    The only solution is to set it up better and soon.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    [..] However, no electric steering system (no matter what setting chosen) has ever provided the level of feel and feedback provided by a good hydraulic system (which itself is a huge compromise from a manual rack).[..]

    I would have to agree. Porsche admits to "filtering out information", albeit useless and annoying from their point of view. I find it hard to believe that any system can successfully distinguish what is useful, in all situations. For sure, some compromises had to be made.

    Personally, and this is not to say that others views are not equally valid, when it comes to driving I would rather have my brain do the filtering  :).

    Still, if it turns out I did drive a PSP car, I will try to have another go in a car without it.


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Possible solution would be to offer unassisted steering as standard and asssisted one as a no cost option

    That should make everyone happy


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    lor:

    Possible solution would be to offer unassisted steering as standard and asssisted one as a no cost option

    That should make everyone happy

     Only if they also reduce the weight of the car by at least 250kg


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    lor:

    Possible solution would be to offer unassisted steering as standard and asssisted one as a no cost option

    That should make everyone happy

     Only if they also reduce the weight of the car by at least 250kg

    Given the level of equipment demanded nowadays and the safety regulations, this can only be done with expensive materials which will raise prices to a level no one will be willing to pay


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    lor:

    Possible solution would be to offer unassisted steering as standard and asssisted one as a no cost option

    That should make everyone happy

     Only if they also reduce the weight of the car by at least 250kg


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

    And go back to more sensibly sized wheels


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:
    Grant:
    lor:

    Possible solution would be to offer unassisted steering as standard and asssisted one as a no cost option

    That should make everyone happy

     Only if they also reduce the weight of the car by at least 250kg

    Given the level of equipment demanded nowadays and the safety regulations, this can only be done with expensive materials which will raise prices to a level no one will be willing to pay

     Exactly, that's why the 997 GT3 hydraulic steering was a perfectly good solution (or maybe the 996 version without the variable ratio).  Don't fix what isn't broken...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    I wonder how the electric steering reacts duing an accident?  If there is any advantage?  Typically you take your hands off, if you can, during a bit hit because the turning wheel can break your wrists.  With the electric steering they may be able to prevent that.  Just wondering.

    Found a 07 GT3 with PCCB and sport adaptive seats and 20K miles for 74K DOLlARS american.  That is my next car.  Anyone want my 05 99S let me know.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:
    Aviator:

    So I test-drove a 991s today. A disappointment really. The main issue for me is that, compared to its predecessors, from a 1973 RS to the 997, it "feels" awkwardly different. Less of a Porsche, is the only way to put it.

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

    It is impossible to fully get the feel of a car like this on Swiss roads but I found a short hill-climb near the dealership, where staying within the speed limit still allowed for a bit of spirited cornering. I can't say how the electro-mechanical steering fares if you ever manage to get the car sideways but I can emphatically say that it makes for an unacceptably vague corner entry. If, as they say, there is none of the old understeering tendency, you wouldn't know it: most often, all you can do is trust that the front tires are doing what you imagine they should do. I imagine that once you get past this lack of information and decide to "trust" the car, it rewards you up to a point; but this is akin to trusting your parachute, instead of commandeering your airplane. 

    Costas, yours is the strictest critique of the new steering I have read or heard so far, either on Rennteam, various magazines or from other people I know Smiley. Some others even liked the electric steering more than the 997's.

    Was the car on winter tyres which generally reduce the feel? Did the car have the Power Steering Plus option that makes steering lighter at lower speeds?

    There must be some explanation for your dissatisfaction. I don't think Porsche could have signed off a system as bad as you describe.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    The Top Gear trio recently came to exact same conclusion regarding the steering on the 991. Even Hammond stated that the very essence of the 911 USP has changed dramatically and that it no longer even feels like a 911.

     


     
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