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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    Elon Musk: Yes. To be clear, Plaid powertrain is about a year away from production & applies to S,X & Roadster, but not 3 or Y. Will cost more than our current offerings, but less than competitors.

     Interesting. Could be embarrassing though if this thing is slower than the Taycan Turbo S. 

    Sportauto or Porsche should buy a regular S100D and do their own Tesla NBR test. Then publish the results and Tesla will be damaged severely. Would be a smart move Smiley Also this would destroy any attempt to publish reasonably good NBR times with a prototype that is unlikely to get to production at all.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    Elon Musk: Yes. To be clear, Plaid powertrain is about a year away from production & applies to S,X & Roadster, but not 3 or Y. Will cost more than our current offerings, but less than competitors.

     Interesting. Could be embarrassing though if this thing is slower than the Taycan Turbo S. 

    It is already embarrassing if he is resorting to Cup2R tires on a sedan and non production powertrain for the lap... Taycan was run stock, but if I'm spite of all that it turns out slower, then it's really embarrassing. Knowing Musk my guess is that if it is indeed slower, they won't release any lap times and just claim technical or safety issues...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    RC:

    Elon Musk: Yes. To be clear, Plaid powertrain is about a year away from production & applies to S,X & Roadster, but not 3 or Y. Will cost more than our current offerings, but less than competitors.

     Interesting. Could be embarrassing though if this thing is slower than the Taycan Turbo S. 

    Sportauto or Porsche should buy a regular S100D and do their own Tesla NBR test. Then publish the results and Tesla will be damaged severely. Would be a smart move Smiley Also this would destroy any attempt to publish reasonably good NBR times with a prototype that is unlikely to get to production at all.

    They don't do stuff like that... Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    IMO this Tesla vs Taycan rivalry helps Porsche a lot.

    First, there a rub off effect on newcomers Porsche. Porsche might be a stronger brand overall but in EVs Tesla are the established brand.

    Second, a strong antagonism will keep Porsche alert and raise the bar. Looking at the Taycan tech this is already an achievement and with the push from Tesla, Porsche will excel in this category too.


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Wow, this thread proves what I have suspected. The bias against Musk and Tesla is bordering on the fanatical. 

    FWIW, Porsche has welcomed Tesla to challenge the Taycan Ring time. It’s good PR for EV’s regardless of whether the S beats the Taycan time. Both Tesla and Porsche will come out ahead. It’s a smart move and for all we know Porsche could be in on it. So if you take your bias blinders off, you maybe able to see more clearly.

    you guys are not surprising me.


    --

     

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    reginos:

    IMO this Tesla vs Taycan rivalry helps Porsche a lot.

    First, there a rub off effect on newcomers Porsche. Porsche might be a stronger brand overall but in EVs Tesla are the established brand.

    Second, a strong antagonism will keep Porsche alert and raise the bar. Looking at the Taycan tech this is already an achievement and with the push from Tesla, Porsche will excel in this category too.

    It could also hurt Porsche, this is a dangerous game and can go either way. Porsche is well advised to stay out of this.

    Let's look at the whole thing from a different point of view: If a buyer, especially in the US, has the chance to get a Porsche EV for the price of a Tesla, letting performance aside, what would he/she choose?! Case closed.

    The Tesla 3 is a different story but Tesla S and Tesla X will have a hard time once the Taycan and other VW Group EVs, including SUVs, will be ready for primetime.

    I'm not a big fan of the e-tron design, even if it looks good but compare the design of an Audi Q8 and the design of a Tesla X: Any more questions?!


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porsche have bought a few Teslas during their development of the Taycan, they already know exactly what a stock Tesla can do. It is us that don't know. 

     


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    More information about the Nürburgring Tesla Model S.  The car, described as having the Plaid, once again the silly Space Balls naming convention, powertrain development program has a widen track with noticeably wider tires and carbon ceramic brake rotors.  A crudely fastened translucent plastic strip extends the rear spoiler.  Tires look like Goodyear F1 Supercar 3, not the Michelin Cup 2 R tires written about before.  Other modifications include an enlarged air intake cut into the lower front fascia.  Certain circles would call this car a Hillbilly Special.  In other words, this car is probably a test platform for the new Roadster and Musk & Co. has decided to take a stab at the Porsche Taycan 'Ring time with it.  

    It is an interesting move for Tesla to try to frame the Taycan as a direct competitor and not a move that is advantageous in the near term.  Musk should have spent more time studying Sun Tzu than watching, and rewatching, Space Balls.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Hope they also test the rocket pack option also. Should add some boost on the straights indecision


    --

    Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2017 Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2020 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Btw the badging on this prototype is interesting P100D+

    Mine is only a P100D


    --

    Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2017 Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2020 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    EnglishManInNY:

    Hope they also test the rocket pack option also. Should add some boost on the straights indecision


    Does it have Super Persuit Mode as well? Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Erm...

    Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:

    Porsche have bought a few Teslas during their development of the Taycan, they already know exactly what a stock Tesla can do. It is us that don't know. 

    This. I'm afraid they're going to be in for a little surprise. Elon Musk is no fool...I think. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    even if they are faster for 1 lap (wouldn't be the first one lap time wonder aka GTR....) it's still running 400V I guess - so..... - I am very impressed by Porsche's packaging of motor-engine-cooling-battery and unless Tesla does a new Car with today's tech there is no comparison


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I guess they will go for that one and only lap and if they achieve their goal, they will make a big fuss about it. Of without one word about repeatability. broken heart


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Not to mention that it's a non production prototype which makes the whole exercise worthless. Prototypes are running in the ring all the times and nobody publishes those lap times for obvious reasons, ring lap times are only about production spec vehicles with factory options that clients can buy in a dealership.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    And the entertainment continues indecision

    https://jalopnik.com/it-looks-like-tesla-will-attempt-to-set-an-absurdly-spe-1838078739


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:

    Not to mention that it's a non production prototype which makes the whole exercise worthless. Prototypes are running in the ring all the times and nobody publishes those lap times for obvious reasons, ring lap times are only about production spec vehicles with factory options that clients can buy in a dealership.

    You mean like Porsche did with the Taycan Smiley

    Published a youtube video on 26th of August. In the YT-video it clearly states "Porsche Taycan Prototype" for the 7:42 record:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vL637IMMX4

    The car was the publicly announced on September 4th and customer cars are expected to be delivered early next year... 

    Why would Tesla make a different approach than Porsche did? They will of course announce the full spec in due course just like already has been confirmed.

    And regarding the specs. It's just like the Turbo S car Porsche set the record with, equipped with all the bells and whistles (PCCB, PDCC, RAS, etc). Just because Tesla doesn't have the car in production right at this point in time doesn't make a difference. More of the opposite.

    Relax and watch the show, I think you will be in for a big surprise Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:

    Porsche have bought a few Teslas during their development of the Taycan, they already know exactly what a stock Tesla can do. It is us that don't know. 

     

    Probably one of Porsche biggest mistake. They have benchmarked against an old drivetrain from 2012. The Raven drivetrain and now this 3-motor new setup will probably come as a huge surprise.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Rossi:

    I guess they will go for that one and only lap and if they achieve their goal, they will make a big fuss about it. Of without one word about repeatability. broken heart

    The Taycan would probably not be able to run 2 full laps at the same speed. Read the fine prints... the Taycan is far from being as repeatable as Porsche says...

    From Porsche regarding drivetrain in Taycan
    "can be repeatedly produced, but usually not consecutively" Smiley

    taycan.png

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Hey your back again! indecision 

    Big difference, Taycan was in final production form and presented 2 weeks later. Who knows when and if this Tesla frankenstein will be in production, nor if the final production version it will be anything like this one.

    Don't worry, I'm not missing this show from Musk, it has been hugely entertaining 


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:

    Hey your back again! indecision

    Big difference, Taycan was in final production form and presented 2 weeks later. Who knows when and if this Tesla frankenstein will be in production, nor if the final production version it will be anything like this one.

    Don't worry, I'm not missing this show from Musk, it has been hugely entertaining 

    Yeah, I couldn't resist to join the party again, quite funny in here after all SmileySmiley

    What do you know about what Tesla will announce a few weeks after their NBR attempt later this month? Where we are right now doesn't say much. The Tesla cars are clearly prototypes.

    I must say that I really do enjoy that Tesla have joined the NBR game. They might have a bumpy start even here, but I think they will perform some impressive stuff. Maybe not this time, but down the line for sure.

    Just buckle up and enjoy the show. I for sure will! Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Musk said himself that this platform is still a year away from production, and a year in Tesla time is an eternity and very far from production form, if it ever makes it into production, the only reason they brought this mule in such a rush is because of all the spotlight the Taycan has taken away from Tesla, and that Musk's ego couldn't handle.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:

    Musk said himself that this platform is still a year away from production, and a year in Tesla time is an eternity and very far from production form, if it ever makes it into production, the only reason they brought this mule in such a rush is because of all the spotlight the Taycan has taken away from Tesla, and that Musk's ego couldn't handle.

    We'll see about that when the time comes. There has been lot's of rumors going on with an updated S and Tesla don't want to let too much out of the bag, because that will Osborn the Model S sales even more and that's not something they want.

    I'm not sure I agree that Taycan stole the show at all? Actually quite the opposite and I was surprised by some of the Taycan specs. It's not competing against the Model S because it is in a new segment and much higher price with a sportier focus and a smaller form factor. The Taycan is even smaller interior wise than the Model 3. Two completely different target groups for the Taycan vs. what Tesla has on offer, but that seems hard to grasp for some.

    I really do like the Taycan though and the design is nice!


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Rossi:

    I guess they will go for that one and only lap and if they achieve their goal, they will make a big fuss about it. Of without one word about repeatability. broken heart

    Smiley Exactly my thought. The media won't care about repeatability, they care only about numbers.

    Headline: Tesla did Nordschleife in 7:05. Tesla vs Taycan, 1:0. Or something like that.

    Porsche needs to understand what is at stake here, even if they don't (seem to) care.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:
    Rossi:

    I guess they will go for that one and only lap and if they achieve their goal, they will make a big fuss about it. Of without one word about repeatability. broken heart

    Smiley Exactly my thought. The media won't care about repeatability, they care only about numbers.

    Headline: Tesla did Nordschleife in 7:05. Tesla vs Taycan, 1:0. Or something like that.

    Porsche needs to understand what is at stake here, even if they don't (seem to) care.

    For the potential buyers for each of the cars it doesn't matter at all if we see it from the overall perspective. For a Porsche buyer they want the badge, the history, the quality, the ability to corner at speed, the perfect driving machine and a possibility to personalize all the details like color, interior, etc. The Tesla buyer want tech, good assistant systems and a fun practical all round car and quite a simple purchase process without any fuzz.

    But otherwise Porsche might up the game and announce a ring time with for example 3 consecutive ring laps without stopping in between, if the car is capable of that?

    Problem for Porsche as I see it is that they already have announced the Turbo S and there is only the GT-cars "above it". But then we speak about track toys, not all rounders, like the Turbo S moniker always has represented. If Porsche stick to history we will see a facelifted Taycan in 4 years and a new Taycan.2 in 7 years. That's lot of time if the competition up the game at a qu pace.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I think that Porsche's biggest mistake was pricing...they could have annihilated Tesla with a more aggressive pricing.

    I get it, over 30000 pre-orders but this can go sideways fast if the car doesn't deliver and/or if Elon Musk pulls off some sort of a clever publicity stunt to hurt Porsche. The Taycan isn't exactly marketed in Tesla territory (Tesla 3 or the lesser powered Tesla models) but I am pretty sure that Elon Musk won't underestimate the new competition. 

    Will be interesting... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    I think that Porsche's biggest mistake was pricing...they could have annihilated Tesla with a more aggressive pricing.

    I think Porsche could have annihilated Tesla in many ways. The problem is that they have benchmarked against old prices and old Model S tech. Model S (and X) prices were slashed from 150k to 100k overnight just a couple months ago and right now Tesla soon will reveal new drivetrain and tech that has been in the works now for a while.

    The other thing is that Porsche can't go all in with performance and at the same time price the car too low, it would then be more difficult to introduce and make room for the new 992 Turbo S that they want to price in the 150-200k bracket. This is really the big challenge. Tesla have their problems as we all know, but they can at least push forward in a rapid pace without having anything internal to protect.

    But saying all that, it is still two completely different beasts and they have their respective pros and cons and will have their fair share of the growing market.

    It will be interesting to see next year how many Porsche fans that even might swap their 911 order for a Taycan because they find the Taycan more desirable and they get the latest and greatest from Porsche for a similar price. A test drive in the real Taycan in a few months might change several peoples mind.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    You are barking up the wrong tree here is you think someone here will trade in a 911 for a Taycan because it's more desirable, non sportscars drivers maybe but then few of those drive a 911, as a third car in the garage in the place of a Panamera or another German sedan sure, but 911 and Taycan are totally different cars and packages with competely different appeals.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    As I asked before how many of the 30,000 deposit customers will cough up almost $200,000 for a first EV model manufacturer?  

    I have no doubt many are experiencing sticker shock.surprise

     


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


     
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