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Mar 13, 2006 10:25:17 AM
- Ronnie
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- Reply to: Georges G. Hayek
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Drive both and see which you prefer. Some prefer the more precise steering control of rear wheel drive, some people prefer the understeer of all wheel drive. This should be more important than the 44mm of extra width a wide body 997 gives you at the rear. This "wide body" busy is not such an issue or as noticeable with the 997 as it was with the 996. Either way... ENJOY.
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Ronnie, did you ever drive a 997 4S?
I have tested the 997 S 5 or 6 times. I bought the 997 4S and I don't have understeer. Once my car was in garage, I've got a 997 S and this car has more understeer then the 97 4S. Also my old 996 tt had more understeer then my actual 997 4S.
But all depends on the tyres:
- Pirelli and Bridgstone are more sporty and less understeer
- Michelin and Dunlop more comfort and more understeer.
AM
I have tested the 997 S 5 or 6 times. I bought the 997 4S and I don't have understeer. Once my car was in garage, I've got a 997 S and this car has more understeer then the 97 4S. Also my old 996 tt had more understeer then my actual 997 4S.
But all depends on the tyres:
- Pirelli and Bridgstone are more sporty and less understeer
- Michelin and Dunlop more comfort and more understeer.
AM
YES 
Re: Do you love your 4S?
I love my 4S, but if I had to do it again I would go for the 2S, as I have more times where I could enjoy the extra sportiveness of the 2S then the times where I need the extra traction of the 4S... but I have to say that during our winter the 4s is more adapted to the roads..
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
Ronnie said:Quote:
mumbasic said:
Ronnie, did you ever drive a 997 4S?
...
AM
Yeah... I decided on C2S as my preferred choice so far.
How long did you test the cars? Which tyres? PASM or sports suspension? How can Walter Röhrl be faster with C4S on the Nordschleife then with a C2S if the car is less sportier?
Some guys define sporty by oversteering. If that is what you like, then there are so many other cars which can do this better.
AM
Re: Do you love your 4S?
mumbasic you got a point here, but on the other hand sportiveness is about feel not about times in the ring and car comparos...
The rear wheel drive can have a different feel altough being some second slower in the ring than the 4S..
After all who of us will go in the ring and reach Rohrl's record????
Remember that although the turbo is AWD the GT3 and GT3 rs and moreover the GT2 are rear wheel drive...
And if anyone remembers, which i m sure many do, the older Porsche models, especially 911's thrilled the audience at their time, and at nowdays because of their sport feeling during driving, although much slower than te 997S and the recent more powerfull models of porsche...
That was their advantage and that it the reason they are still remembered and praised.. their sportiveness and their absolute feeling even when some of them got only 133 bhp...
The rear wheel drive can have a different feel altough being some second slower in the ring than the 4S..
After all who of us will go in the ring and reach Rohrl's record????
Remember that although the turbo is AWD the GT3 and GT3 rs and moreover the GT2 are rear wheel drive...
And if anyone remembers, which i m sure many do, the older Porsche models, especially 911's thrilled the audience at their time, and at nowdays because of their sport feeling during driving, although much slower than te 997S and the recent more powerfull models of porsche...
That was their advantage and that it the reason they are still remembered and praised.. their sportiveness and their absolute feeling even when some of them got only 133 bhp...
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Dilinger, I agree with you about Röhrl.
Before my actual car, I owned a 996 tt and I used to go to Hockenheimring to race with some other Porsche drivers. There were many GT2 owners, but no one was faster then me with my 996 tt. I wasn't the fastest driver. But it was easier with AWD to be fast. As a non professional you will be faster with a AWD Porsche.
And I define sport as it is when it come to race: speed and faster times.
Most people mix feeling with sportiveness. Put a loud exhaust and a lot of people will tell you that your car is sportier. I don't mind if someone says I've got another feeling but the word sportier is in my opinion wrong.
Also I doubt, that it is easy to feel the 5% on the front axle.
AM
Before my actual car, I owned a 996 tt and I used to go to Hockenheimring to race with some other Porsche drivers. There were many GT2 owners, but no one was faster then me with my 996 tt. I wasn't the fastest driver. But it was easier with AWD to be fast. As a non professional you will be faster with a AWD Porsche.
And I define sport as it is when it come to race: speed and faster times.
Most people mix feeling with sportiveness. Put a loud exhaust and a lot of people will tell you that your car is sportier. I don't mind if someone says I've got another feeling but the word sportier is in my opinion wrong.
Also I doubt, that it is easy to feel the 5% on the front axle.
AM
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
mumbasic said:Quote:
Ronnie said:Quote:
mumbasic said:
Ronnie, did you ever drive a 997 4S?
...
AM
Yeah... I decided on C2S as my preferred choice so far.
How long did you test the cars? Which tyres? PASM or sports suspension? How can Walter Röhrl be faster with C4S on the Nordschleife then with a C2S if the car is less sportier?
Some guys define sporty by oversteering. If that is what you like, then there are so many other cars which can do this better.
AM
mumbasic, I don't know what your problem is. I stand by my earlier comments... I prefer the C2S over the C4S. As I said, the C2S has more precise steering control and feel.
I also think this should be more important than the 44mm of extra width a wide body 997 gives you at the rear.
This "wide body" business is not such an issue or as noticeable with the 997 as it was with the 996. Either way... ENJOY.
My decision to purchase a 911 was very much an emotional one, so I wasn't that interested in the "many other cars which can do this better". This may not matter to you.
Also, I did not take a note book with me to record what tyres were on the cars I test drove, nor did I stop watch the time periods I spent in each. All I know is what I prefer and I would still recommend any one serious about buying one, but unsure on which version to test drive for themselves.
As for the Walter Röhrl comments... I can't see where I posted anything regarding one being sportier than the other so I can't see the relevance here.
It would be just as irrelevant for me to post that the reardriven CGT is faster round the ring than the C4S
so what??
Mar 15, 2006 5:06:44 PM
- Silver Bullet
- Veteran
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- Loc: Canada
- Posts: 1126, Gallery
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- Reply to: Ronnie
Re: Do you love your 4S?
What are the "official times" for the 997 C2S and the C4S with Rohl behind the wheel, and where do they come from (ie. what's the source).
Carlos - have you driven the 997 C4S? I know you had a lot to say about the difference between AWD and RWD in the 996 series - any thoughts on the 997?
I'm fascinated by this debate - I love it.
Carlos - have you driven the 997 C4S? I know you had a lot to say about the difference between AWD and RWD in the 996 series - any thoughts on the 997?
I'm fascinated by this debate - I love it.
Mar 15, 2006 5:30:02 PM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: Silver Bullet
Re: Do you love your 4S?
I have test driven both C2S and C4S and I found the steering of the C4S too heavy for one handed operation.
There are a few other little differences too:
C4S has slightly less front boot space, higher fuel consumption but these are VERY MINOR factors.
C4S has a slightly better braking system. Plus there is a front/rear locking differential obviously because it is AWD.
Overall, your choice. Will also depend upon how much snow/ice you have where you live.
Personally I wanted the C2S 100% RWD traction and light steering feel.
There are a few other little differences too:
C4S has slightly less front boot space, higher fuel consumption but these are VERY MINOR factors.
C4S has a slightly better braking system. Plus there is a front/rear locking differential obviously because it is AWD.
Overall, your choice. Will also depend upon how much snow/ice you have where you live.
Personally I wanted the C2S 100% RWD traction and light steering feel.
Mar 15, 2006 6:00:23 PM
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ALDO
- Rennteam Moderator
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- Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany
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- Reply to: Silver Bullet
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
What are the "official times" for the 997 C2S and the C4S with Rohl behind the wheel, and where do they come from (ie. what's the source).
Carlos - have you driven the 997 C4S? I know you had a lot to say about the difference between AWD and RWD in the 996 series - any thoughts on the 997?
I'm fascinated by this debate - I love it.
In the hands of Walter Röhrl the C4S is 2 or 3 seconds faster.
AM
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
mumbasic, I don't know what your problem is.
no problem, we are discussing! This is the purpose of this forum.
Quote:
I stand by my earlier comments... I prefer the C2S over the C4S. As I said, the C2S has more precise steering control and feel.
I also think this should be more important than the 44mm of extra width a wide body 997 gives you at the rear.
This "wide body" business is not such an issue or as noticeable with the 997 as it was with the 996. Either way... ENJOY.
My decision to purchase a 911 was very much an emotional one, so I wasn't that interested in the "many other cars which can do this better". This may not matter to you.
Also, I did not take a note book with me to record what tyres were on the cars I test drove, nor did I stop watch the time periods I spent in each. All I know is what I prefer and I would still recommend any one serious about buying one, but unsure on which version to test drive for themselves.
As for the Walter Röhrl comments... I can't see where I posted anything regarding one being sportier than the other so I can't see the relevance here.
It would be just as irrelevant for me to post that the reardriven CGT is faster round the ring than the C4S
but you told us:
Quote:
Some prefer the more precise steering control of rear wheel drive, some people prefer the understeer of all wheel drive
and the understeer part is matter of discussion.
AM
Mar 15, 2006 10:22:51 PM
- Silver Bullet
- Veteran
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- Loc: Canada
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Reply to:
ALDO
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
mumbasic said:Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
What are the "official times" for the 997 C2S and the C4S with Rohl behind the wheel, and where do they come from (ie. what's the source).
Carlos - have you driven the 997 C4S? I know you had a lot to say about the difference between AWD and RWD in the 996 series - any thoughts on the 997?
I'm fascinated by this debate - I love it.
In the hands of Walter Röhrl the C4S is 2 or 3 seconds faster.
AM
You know - I gotta wonder about these numbers. First of all, PAG has a huge interest in quoting faster times for the C4S b/c it costs more. They'd never sell as many C4S's as they do if they cost more and were slower. But even then, where do these 'official Walter Rohl PAG" #'s come from?? Over at rennlist, there was a debate regarding whether the 996 C2 was slower around the 'ring than the 996C4S. A webiste was quoted as evidence that it was, but that site didn't even spell Walter Rohl's name right, and it was supposed to be coming directly from sources at PAG!
If AWD really makes the car faster on a track like the N'ring, which in many ways is like a real world experience given the good mix of straightaways and turns and elevation changes etc, then why wouldn't the GT2 and GT3 and Carrera GT be AWD? Just for the "tradition" of having a sportscar be RWD?
Does it all just boil down to steering feel? If so, then, to me, the 997 C4S has the advantage - despite the diminished steering feel, it's faster, safer, and better on less than ideal road conditions. Let's face it, I can't believe that it has numb and uncommunicative steering - sure it might be a little lighter and less informative and direct than the C2S, but don't the other advantages outweigh that?
Is mumbasic right in that the main reason the C2S is described as more "sporty" is b/c it can be made to oversteer more easily?
In the 996 series, the C4S understeered much more than the C2S (stock at least), so that was a big downside, but if the 997 has really sorted that all out, then maybe the C4S really does have the edge? My Canadian Porsche website even quotes the C4S as being faster 0-60 than the C2S, which was definitely not true of the 996 series.
So what's the truth, and is it consistent with what PAG wants us to believe?
Mar 16, 2006 4:15:41 AM
- Silver Bullet
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- Loc: Canada
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- Reply to: Silver Bullet
Mar 16, 2006 7:17:46 AM
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ALDO
- Rennteam Moderator
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- Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany
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- Reply to: Silver Bullet
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
I think I'm just going to have to finally drive a 997 C4S, but my dealer hasn't had a demo yet!!
It's only sad, that even test driving you can't measure if it 0,1 or 0,2 seconds faster or slower then another car. So we have to trust PAG or Sport Auto.
I think that Porsche presents us the real number, if not then why is the new 997 tt faster in acceleration then CGT?
I never drove a 996 C4, I heard: it was like a pig. My 996 tt had understeering (not so much), but my 997 4S has nearly no understeer. It is so neutral (I like this more, then some oversteering). I have to say this is true for my car with summer tyres which are Bridgestone, I never tested other tyre brands. Also some guy from Porsche told me that with Conti tyres there will be understeer, that is for people who likes comfort.
AM
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
mumbasic said:
I have to say this is true for my car with summer tyres which are Bridgestone, I never tested other tyre brands. Also some guy from Porsche told me that with Conti tyres there will be understeer, that is for people who likes comfort.
AM
Are tyres so important? I mean is it possible that a car oversteer with Pirelli (only an example) or understeer with Bridgestone?
Re: Do you love your 4S?
with Pirellis and Bridgestone you are on the right side 
I have talked to the chief project manager for the suspension system of turbo and 4/4S. He told that there are large differences between the tyres. He told me that the goal is not over- or understeer rather neutral. The car should be neutral when using Pirelli or Bridgestone and the -20mm sport suspension, when using standard suspension (not PASM) and Continental then you have the maximum comfort and as a result of that setup more understeer.
AM
I have talked to the chief project manager for the suspension system of turbo and 4/4S. He told that there are large differences between the tyres. He told me that the goal is not over- or understeer rather neutral. The car should be neutral when using Pirelli or Bridgestone and the -20mm sport suspension, when using standard suspension (not PASM) and Continental then you have the maximum comfort and as a result of that setup more understeer.
AM
Mar 16, 2006 11:01:26 AM
- easy_rider911
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- Reply to: matpop
Mar 16, 2006 4:35:40 PM
- Silver Bullet
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
When the C4 and C4S were launched, BBC Top Gear did a comparison of the RWD and AWD cars.
Result: around an indoor dirt track, the AWD was fractionally quicker but, and it's a big but, the Stig much preferred the handling and steering feel of the RWD.
The 997C2 vs 997C4 comparison on Topgear was at a special stage of the British leg of the world rally championship - that "track" displayed far from pefect road conditions like the ones rally cars are used to and compete in. Under those circumstances and with PCCB's on the C4 (not on the C2), and with the C4 going AFTER the C2, the C4 was 1/2 a second faster around the track (about 1 minute a lap if I recall correctly). Also, the Stig and the host of the show agreed that the C2 was more nimble and more fun to drive with much more communicative steering. I believe that the word they used to describe the steering on the C4 was "ponderous".
I have always thought that the C4 would compare favorably with the C2 in traction conditions that are less than good, but on a good dry road or track, it would lose. I'm beginning to doubt that, though I wonder if I'm just getting seduced by propaganda. I salute Top Gear for making the comparison, and I'd like to see more independent comparisons.
I'm also skeptical regarding the influence of tire brand that has been alluded to, and would be interested in hearing more from others about this . . .
mumbasic - thanks for some thought provoking posts. I agree that I'll never be able to accomplish those 0.2 sec differences, but a test drive should go a long way to sorting out the steering feel and over/understeer issues. I'll just make sure I check the tires first!
Re: Do you love your 4S?
Quote:
Gnil said:
I love my 4S, but if I had to do it again I would go for the 2S, as I have more times where I could enjoy the extra sportiveness of the 2S then the times where I need the extra traction of the 4S... but I have to say that during our winter the 4s is more adapted to the roads..
i'm personally leaning towards the 4S for its versatility. though, i'm curious if the 997 4S will adapt/co-op the new AWD technology from the Turbo -- so i'm waiting.
however, i'm curious that you mention extra sportienss -- are you referring simply to the lighter steering? thank you.
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