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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Does anyone know where the Taycan will fall in exterior and interior size vs the Model S and the 3?

    Maybe the Taycan is in the Model 3 category which would explain better some of the marketing positioning.

     

    Taycan is smaller than the Panamera. It will be E-Class/5 series sized.

    So Model S sized.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, I agree - especially with the keyword "yet"  It will be an interesting race for sure kiss

    Fully agree that it is an interesting race and it's a joy being a spectator Smiley

    But what to some extent is skewed in my opinion is the "Tesla vs. the rest" and wether Tesla will survive or not. I mean, the race is as much between BMW, Mercedes, Audi (to name a few) to compete with each others new products in different segments and how they can manage the transition and selling ICE vehicles in parallell with their new EVs. It's a thin line and the legacy and necessary investments in electrification will for sure not be smooth sailing.

    Just because BMW launch their new 3-series doesn't mean that they will "kill" Audi A4 and Merc C-class sales. In the same way just because BMW or Audi launch a new EV doesn't mean it will kill the Teslas. I'd say that Tesla actually formed a new segment of car buyers that are more interested in tech than in the actual car. In this segment there are probably not that many who jump the Tesla ship that easy and buy a BMW 3-series EV instead. Of course it work out the other way around as well where a die hard BMW fan have zero interest in a Tesla 3 and wait for a 3 series EV (if that person at all is interested in an EV).

    For Porsche it will be very interesting to see how things develop with the Taycan and how they sell that in parallell with the Panamera at a similar price point. Recent news show that demand looks very high and in it's niche this will be a fantastic car. Actually the car that interest me personally the most among all EV launches.

     

    Taycan is a EV car, it sells in the EV segment. Which currently only has Tesla take the whole pie without competition at premium price end. Same with all the other EV from the other Germans.

    Together they will gradually grow the EV segment to become bigger, but the sure thing is that Tesla will lose major market share, a fact as they current have 100% of the segment. 

    EV cars compete with EV cars, just like pickup trucks compete against pickup trucks, you don't hear people talking about Jesus those F150s are killing the sales of the Focus.

    As for the Taycan competing against Panamera. It's a moot point. They are different size for different segments. GM, Chrysler and Ford all sells full size pickups and mid sized pickups, and no one give a single fuck about Jesus those mid-sized pickups are stealing sales from the full sized. They only steal from competitors from the same segment. Nor did someone say damn those E-Class are stealing S-Class sales.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    lukestern:
    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, I agree - especially with the keyword "yet"  It will be an interesting race for sure kiss

    Fully agree that it is an interesting race and it's a joy being a spectator Smiley

    But what to some extent is skewed in my opinion is the "Tesla vs. the rest" and wether Tesla will survive or not. I mean, the race is as much between BMW, Mercedes, Audi (to name a few) to compete with each others new products in different segments and how they can manage the transition and selling ICE vehicles in parallell with their new EVs. It's a thin line and the legacy and necessary investments in electrification will for sure not be smooth sailing.

    Just because BMW launch their new 3-series doesn't mean that they will "kill" Audi A4 and Merc C-class sales. In the same way just because BMW or Audi launch a new EV doesn't mean it will kill the Teslas. I'd say that Tesla actually formed a new segment of car buyers that are more interested in tech than in the actual car. In this segment there are probably not that many who jump the Tesla ship that easy and buy a BMW 3-series EV instead. Of course it work out the other way around as well where a die hard BMW fan have zero interest in a Tesla 3 and wait for a 3 series EV (if that person at all is interested in an EV).

    For Porsche it will be very interesting to see how things develop with the Taycan and how they sell that in parallell with the Panamera at a similar price point. Recent news show that demand looks very high and in it's niche this will be a fantastic car. Actually the car that interest me personally the most among all EV launches.

     

    Taycan is a EV car, it sells in the EV segment. Which currently only has Tesla take the whole pie without competition at premium price end. Same with all the other EV from the other Germans.

    Together they will gradually grow the EV segment to become bigger, but the sure thing is that Tesla will lose major market share, a fact as they current have 100% of the segment. 

    In an exponential growing market it doesn't matter what market share Tesla has today. 5% market share for Tesla in a few years could be similar to the sheer number of cars equal to 300% of the market today. 

    EV cars compete with EV cars, just like pickup trucks compete against pickup trucks, you don't hear people talking about Jesus those F150s are killing the sales of the Focus.

    A more valid comparison would be a BMW 5-series diesel competing against a BMW 5-series petrol. It's just a different drivetrain. Not sure why you start to compare a truck with a Focus and the logic behind that? Totally different products, that serves different purpose for different customers.

    As for the Taycan competing against Panamera. It's a moot point. They are different size for different segments. GM, Chrysler and Ford all sells full size pickups and mid sized pickups, and no one give a single fuck about Jesus those mid-sized pickups are stealing sales from the full sized. They only steal from competitors from the same segment. Nor did someone say damn those E-Class are stealing S-Class sales.

    I think you underestimate a lot of customers. People will compromise a little in size to get the benefit of driving a Taycan instead of a Panamera with yesterdays tech. I think we will see dramatic changes quicker than you can imagine. But let's see who's right in a few years, I know we will never agree on this today so no idea to discuss this further. I have my stand point and you have yours. And that's perfectly fine Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Whoopsy:
    lukestern:
    Porsche-Jeck:

    Yes, I agree - especially with the keyword "yet"  It will be an interesting race for sure kiss

    Fully agree that it is an interesting race and it's a joy being a spectator Smiley

    But what to some extent is skewed in my opinion is the "Tesla vs. the rest" and wether Tesla will survive or not. I mean, the race is as much between BMW, Mercedes, Audi (to name a few) to compete with each others new products in different segments and how they can manage the transition and selling ICE vehicles in parallell with their new EVs. It's a thin line and the legacy and necessary investments in electrification will for sure not be smooth sailing.

    Just because BMW launch their new 3-series doesn't mean that they will "kill" Audi A4 and Merc C-class sales. In the same way just because BMW or Audi launch a new EV doesn't mean it will kill the Teslas. I'd say that Tesla actually formed a new segment of car buyers that are more interested in tech than in the actual car. In this segment there are probably not that many who jump the Tesla ship that easy and buy a BMW 3-series EV instead. Of course it work out the other way around as well where a die hard BMW fan have zero interest in a Tesla 3 and wait for a 3 series EV (if that person at all is interested in an EV).

    For Porsche it will be very interesting to see how things develop with the Taycan and how they sell that in parallell with the Panamera at a similar price point. Recent news show that demand looks very high and in it's niche this will be a fantastic car. Actually the car that interest me personally the most among all EV launches.

     

    Taycan is a EV car, it sells in the EV segment. Which currently only has Tesla take the whole pie without competition at premium price end. Same with all the other EV from the other Germans.

    Together they will gradually grow the EV segment to become bigger, but the sure thing is that Tesla will lose major market share, a fact as they current have 100% of the segment. 

    In an exponential growing market it doesn't matter what market share Tesla has today. 5% market share for Tesla in a few years could be similar to the sheer number of cars equal to 300% of the market today. 

    EV cars compete with EV cars, just like pickup trucks compete against pickup trucks, you don't hear people talking about Jesus those F150s are killing the sales of the Focus.

    A more valid comparison would be a BMW 5-series diesel competing against a BMW 5-series petrol. It's just a different drivetrain. Not sure why you start to compare a truck with a Focus and the logic behind that? Totally different products, that serves different purpose for different customers.

    As for the Taycan competing against Panamera. It's a moot point. They are different size for different segments. GM, Chrysler and Ford all sells full size pickups and mid sized pickups, and no one give a single fuck about Jesus those mid-sized pickups are stealing sales from the full sized. They only steal from competitors from the same segment. Nor did someone say damn those E-Class are stealing S-Class sales.

    I think you underestimate a lot of customers. People will compromise a little in size to get the benefit of driving a Taycan instead of a Panamera with yesterdays tech. I think we will see dramatic changes quicker than you can imagine. But let's see who's right in a few years, I know we will never agree on this today so no idea to discuss this further. I have my stand point and you have yours. And that's perfectly fine Smiley

     

    As a EV fanboy you are over estimating the attraction of EV.

    The 2 cars are difference sized period. They are aiming for different segment. 

    You are thinking they are the same size so you use a 5 series diesel vs a 5 series gasoline. Actually not just you, but every other Tesla fanboy thinks the same way. That Porsche is killing it's own product with another to deflect the issue that Taycan is aiming squarely at the Model S, well slight above to be exact. 

    a diesel C-class doesn't steal from a gasoline 5 series, nor do a 5 series diesel stealing from a S-class. They all co-exists.

    Panamera is a giant car, Taycan is not, I had them side by side in Weissach. The size difference is basically a E vs a S. Completely different segment, Only thing they have in common is the badge and 4 doors that's about it.

    But if you insist that kind of logic, then the Model 3 should have killed the Model S isn't it? Newer car Smiley

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    https://electrek.co/2019/03/11/tesla-buying-trucks-trailers-tsla-shares/

     

    More signs Tesla is running out of cash again? Using shares as money.


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    I think you underestimate a lot of customers. People will compromise a little in size to get the benefit of driving a Taycan instead of a Panamera with yesterdays tech. I think we will see dramatic changes quicker than you can imagine. But let's see who's right in a few years, I know we will never agree on this today so no idea to discuss this further. I have my stand point and you have yours. And that's perfectly fine Smiley

     

    As a EV fanboy you are over estimating the attraction of EV.

    Getting a bit bored of that "fanboy" thing. But ok.

    The 2 cars are difference sized period. They are aiming for different segment. 

    You are thinking they are the same size so you use a 5 series diesel vs a 5 series gasoline. Actually not just you, but every other Tesla fanboy thinks the same way. That Porsche is killing it's own product with another to deflect the issue that Taycan is aiming squarely at the Model S, well slight above to be exact. 

    I can assure you that many customers who bought the Model S did compromise to get onboard the EV train and get into a Tesla. A lot of them wanted a SUV or a smaller car, but bought it anyway, because it was the only choice.

    Taycan is the first EV from Porsche and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who like Porsche will compromise in the same way that early Tesla buyers did. There will be Model S owners buying a Taycan, in the similar way that there are Audi RS6 buyers getting a BMW M5 instead if the M5 is updated and get more new tech before next gen RS6. There is always an appeal to try something new.

    When the Taycan is out, Tesla probably announce a new updated Model S  that will appeal to some of the tech/family people who doesn't care about if the car can lap NBR or not and just have the connection to the Porsche brand.

    There is a market for Model S, Taycan and whatever other car in the same segment that will come to market in due course. If there was no market, there would be no competition. The billions of investments from the German companies into EVs will benefit Tesla sales in an exponential growing market.

    Model S is probably a bigger car better suited for a family than the Taycan. So not direct competitors in that sense.

    Panamera is a giant car, Taycan is not, I had them side by side in Weissach. The size difference is basically a E vs a S. Completely different segment, Only thing they have in common is the badge and 4 doors that's about it.

    Panamera is quite small inside. Sits 4 adults and have a rather tiny luggage compartment for the size of the car. Not the best family car which is why the Taycan may compete quite well in interior size with the Panamera.

    But if you insist that kind of logic, then the Model 3 should have killed the Model S isn't it? Newer car Smiley

    Actually the Model 3 is probably steeling some Model S sales. The 3 does have a lot of newer tech that the Model S lack, which is why Tesla really need to launch an update of the Model S.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Porsche-Jeck:

    Dimensions for the concept car (not sure about the real thing):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Mission_E

    Length 4,850 mm (190.9 in)
    Width 1,990 mm (78.3 in)
    Height 1,300 mm (51.2 in)

    Sounds more like Model S size rather than Model 3
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    Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

     

     

    Taycan is a better 2+2 seater. I was sitting inside. At the back with 1.85 m your head touches the roof. Your knees are bended a lot. The real car will have a so called foot garage, without some battery cells in the feet area of the back seats.

    The Model S is two categories larger.

    btw the Taycan is a good looking car. Inside a Panamera without buttons just large screens


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    AM


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    So clearly the Taycan is gunning for the Model 3, not the S. That’s why I asked, to me the Panamera is even smaller than the S inside... Anyway performance of the Taycan is in line with the Model 3 Performance so that makes a lot of sense.

    Tesla must know the Model Y once in production will steal A LOT of Model S sales. So clearly a new Model S in in the works and should be out no later than one year from now.

    The Taycan as a 2+2 makes more sense at $75k, it is not a family car, it is it’s own thing and will not blatantly steal sales of the Macan or Panamera. Porsche problem is that all the deposits are for a family EV from Porsche, or from flippers. We follow Porsche almost daily and barely can figure out what the production Taycan will be or its size.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It's not even a secret the the Taycan is one size smaller than the Panamera, just like a E is smaller than a S.

    One reason why Porsche didn't downsize the Panamera to compete in the middle size segment. Which the would have cleaned house comparing with E63 and M5s. It still do as a S-class monster though

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Outside maybe, but inside the Panamera is barely the size of an E, so the Taycan is problaly barely the size of a C...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
     

    In an exponential growing market it doesn't matter what market share Tesla has today. 5% market share for Tesla in a few years could be similar to the sheer number of cars equal to 300% of the market today. 

    That is a valid point Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    So clearly the Taycan is gunning for the Model 3, not the S. That’s why I asked, to me the Panamera is even smaller than the S inside... Anyway performance of the Taycan is in line with the Model 3 Performance so that makes a lot of sense.

     

    While I don't know the final specs of the Taycan I guarantee you that it will compete against the model S (I even expect it will be positioned as a premium product above the model S)... It is a Porsche. It will certainly rank above any Tesla product in the market.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    there is definitely more space in the Pany than E class.

     Taycan as Nick said will be the E-class competitor (that Porsche should have gone since day one) but they follow the same strategy as the Cayenne so big segment.

    Taycan is interesting but will be priced in the premium segment to luxury segment, not less.


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    In my opinion, these are highly insightful comments that make it easier to understand when a truly autonomous vehicle can materialize. Thank you for such a thoughtful post!


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Is model 3 E class or C class?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Is model 3 E class or C class?

    Clearly C class. Even the Tesla S is a bit smaller inside than my E63, at least this is how I remember it.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    EPA has their interior volume formula to classify cars, does't quite make sense to most consumers, but it is what it is.

    Most Tesla fanboy used that to argue the Model S is S-class sized for example to say they top the 'premium luxury sedan' crown. Whatever.

    For typical consumers, they are ingrained with looking at a car's footprint and determine if the car is a full sized, mid-sized, or small-sized/compact sedan. That equates to 3, 5, 7series, C, E, S-class etc.

    Some people use pricing as the determining point, but that's highly depending on the brand strength to command appropriate price. To most people a Honda Accord is a mid-sized sedan, but it cannot and will not command pricing like a Mercedes E-class. It's perhaps slightly cheaper than a base C-class and for price conscious consumers, they could think they are getting a bigger car for less money. 

    Same deal with Tesla, Tesla the brand simply cannot command premium pricing like the luxury German brand (excluding VW, Piech tried and failed miserably with the Phaeton), but it can command a near luxury segment premium pricing, say a Lexus or Acura. And Tesla the brand can definitely command higher price than a Toyota or Honda or Hyundai. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    My car is in the paint shop which is one of the last part of the production process. My rep emailed out of the blue today... amazing feedback, good luck to get that kind of attention from the dinosaurs...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog,

    I was at the detailer's last week and they had a couple of Model 3s in getting paint correction.  The detailer mentioned they do a lot of work on Teslas as the paint is thin, orangepeely, and prone to chipping.  Please consider a front wrap.  (And I like Teslas so this is not a Tesla slam.)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Is model 3 E class or C class?

    Clearly C class. Even the Tesla S is a bit smaller inside than my E63, at least this is how I remember it.

    Model 3 is like C class, headroom is not so good and the knees are more bended. But you have more room for the legs and the car is little bit more roomy inside.

    Model S is more like Panamera and slightly larger the E class.

    Taycan is not E class in size, Taycan is Model 3 or even little bit smaller. Both have the same problem - headroom and bended knees due to batteries below. Taycan will fix it for production.

    Taycan is two classes better in interior quality compared to Model 3, but it costs also twice.


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    AM


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    waiting for PDK:

    SciFrog,

    I was at the detailer's last week and they had a couple of Model 3s in getting paint correction.  The detailer mentioned they do a lot of work on Teslas as the paint is thin, orangepeely, and prone to chipping.  Please consider a front wrap.  (And I like Teslas so this is not a Tesla slam.)

    I would not even consider doing a wrap on a Tesla. I didn’t even do it on my California... They are cars, eventually, wrap or not, they get small blemishes and long time ago I learned not to care anymore about small details like that Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    ALDO:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Is model 3 E class or C class?

    Clearly C class. Even the Tesla S is a bit smaller inside than my E63, at least this is how I remember it.

    Model 3 is like C class, headroom is not so good and the knees are more bended. But you have more room for the legs and the car is little bit more roomy inside.

    Model S is more like Panamera and slightly larger the E class.

    Taycan is not E class in size, Taycan is Model 3 or even little bit smaller. Both have the same problem - headroom and bended knees due to batteries below. Taycan will fix it for production.

    Taycan is two classes better in interior quality compared to Model 3, but it costs also twice.

    I really recommend trying an E class again and then the Tesla S. My kids feel much more comfy in the back of the E class than in the Tesla S (they are very observant when it comes to their ride comfort), so there must be a reason for it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    ALDO:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Is model 3 E class or C class?

    Clearly C class. Even the Tesla S is a bit smaller inside than my E63, at least this is how I remember it.

    Model 3 is like C class, headroom is not so good and the knees are more bended. But you have more room for the legs and the car is little bit more roomy inside.

    Model S is more like Panamera and slightly larger the E class.

    Taycan is not E class in size, Taycan is Model 3 or even little bit smaller. Both have the same problem - headroom and bended knees due to batteries below. Taycan will fix it for production.

    Taycan is two classes better in interior quality compared to Model 3, but it costs also twice.

    I really recommend trying an E class again and then the Tesla S. My kids feel much more comfy in the back of the E class than in the Tesla S (they are very observant when it comes to their ride comfort), so there must be a reason for it.

    I fully agree. The Tesla S does feel like a middle class car (E class etc.). It is easy to try in the Netherlands. There are thousands of Model S used as Taxis there (highly subsidized by the government, that's why).


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    ALDO:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Is model 3 E class or C class?

    Clearly C class. Even the Tesla S is a bit smaller inside than my E63, at least this is how I remember it.

    Model 3 is like C class, headroom is not so good and the knees are more bended. But you have more room for the legs and the car is little bit more roomy inside.

    Model S is more like Panamera and slightly larger the E class.

    Taycan is not E class in size, Taycan is Model 3 or even little bit smaller. Both have the same problem - headroom and bended knees due to batteries below. Taycan will fix it for production.

    Taycan is two classes better in interior quality compared to Model 3, but it costs also twice.

    I really recommend trying an E class again and then the Tesla S. My kids feel much more comfy in the back of the E class than in the Tesla S (they are very observant when it comes to their ride comfort), so there must be a reason for it.

    I am just talking about size - the comfort of the seats and the leather is better in MB E then Tesla S.

    All my posts Model S, Model 3, Taycan, ... are only related to size not to quality.


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    AM


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I wasn't talking about quality but headroom, leg room and space feel. The Tesla S feels more cramped in the back than the E class...as far as I remember, a lot of time has passed since I've had the Tesla S for a test-drive.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

    I wasn't talking about quality but headroom, leg room and space feel. The Tesla S feels more cramped in the back than the E class...as far as I remember, a lot of time has passed since I've had the Tesla S for a test-drive.

    E-class is more comfortable for two adults in the back seat than the Tesla S, no doubt about that. The Tesla S is however rather wide and can better seat three people and also doesn't have the middle transmission tunnel, which means that there is more space on the flat floor in the middle.

    What I've learnt however after testing several Model S is that from 2018 MY, the back seat is changed to a much better variant with three individually shaped seat in the back. Before this it was just an ugly and uncomfortable "bench" in the back (which I think is the variant most have tested). Head room has also improved with the new glass roof which didn't exist in Model S from let's say 2017 and older. With the higher floor in the Model S the back seat comfort will be better in a similar sized car, but depends also on body shape and how you prefer to sit back there. Model S cargo capacity is however by far the biggest in its class. Think it is about 850 liter or so without rear seats folded which is huge in its class and also with the hatchback opening it is nice for hauling cargo. There is also the extra cargo space in the front which is similar to the space in a 911.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Model S had an option to seat 7 people... I doubt even an S class size could do that...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    VW ID all-electric hatchback pre-orders open May 8, production version comes in September

    https://apple.news/A1n8MH-Z5TcOBIObQz5dh0Q

    First deliveries end of 2019 in Europe...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Introduction before 2020 when the new 95 g/km CO2 average per fleet emission standard goes into effect.  Without diesel in demand any more, this is Volkswagen’s means of hoping to meet the new standards.   Diess stated at the annual meeting a couple of days ago, the group will be increasing the number of EV models because it takes 30% less effort to produce an EV than corresponding ICE vehicle, implying costs can be significantly lower.  

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Their problem is going to be how to sell these in Europe where the infrastructure is behind?


     
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