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    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    PureBlue:
    Jeez, this PDK thing is becoming a bit of an obsession with you.  Tastes differ, that's the way of the world - so let the man get a manual if he wants a manual.  Enough said.  Smiley

    Jeez...just trying to help. I won't kill him if he gets manual. Promise. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    I believe now RC doesn't hold the german-license to drive Manual - just automatic hence he is soon keenly defending it smiley


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    dreamcar:
    My advice to any British potential Porsche buyer - if it's an Inchcape owned dealership like Porsche Centre Bournemouth - avoid them as if they had bubonic plague Smiley

     

     

    not dealing with Bournemouth ...


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    BjoernB:

    I believe now RC doesn't hold the german-license to drive Manual - just automatic hence he is soon keenly defending it smiley

    Ah, now I understand.  SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    BjoernB:

    I believe now RC doesn't hold the german-license to drive Manual - just automatic hence he is soon keenly defending it smiley

    Nice try but maybe you should look for the older posts, especially when I had my 996 Turbo RS-Tuning. Smiley

    Manual sucks. If someone believes he is faster with manual, this is an illusion. I outran many people on the track (and elsewhere) with Tiptronic, even in auto mode (you should ask that tuned 993 Turbo driver who tried to outran me during an event and didn't believe that I drove all the time my 997 Turbo Tiptronic in auto mode Smiley and I even left PSM on because the car was new and I didn't want to crash it before I got used to it). The current PDK is amazing, in auto mode and manual mode. So for those who think they can outsmart the PDK fuzzy logic, be my guest. You can't, unless you are Walter Röhrl and even he prefers to drive PDK in auto mode. Smiley Of course he is faster driving in manual mode but he is Walter Röhrl and not an amateur driver who thinks manual makes him faster. It doesn't.

    Driving fun ? I get it. I just don't get what manual has to do with it because I am faster when I have both hands on the steering wheel.

    If someone argues now that the GT3 and GT2 models are manual only, think again. The race versions have a sequential shifting system and I think I don't have to explain the reason why PDK hasn't been adapted to the GT models yet. Little hint: Cost.

    Look around the racing world, how many "true" manual tranny cars are left ? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    sfo:
    dreamcar:
    My advice to any British potential Porsche buyer - if it's an Inchcape owned dealership like Porsche Centre Bournemouth - avoid them as if they had bubonic plague Smiley

     

     

    not dealing with Bournemouth ...

    I guessed you weren't using Bournemouth by your London location - the note of warning was for any Rennteamer contemplating acquiring a Porsche - Cambridge is another Inchcape one, I believe.

    A very good friend of mine was also treated shamefully by Guildford, one of the Porsche GB dealerships - they even used his Turbo as a demonstrator when it went in for some minor warranty work when brand new, only discovered by destinations in the Sat Nav memory that he'd never entered and 50 unexplained miles on the clock! Next time he went back there the car received minor damage whilst in their hands and had to threaten legal action to get it fixed; he now uses Porsche Centre mid Sussex in Burgess Hill who have been first class - this is where our Cayman will be serviced.

    --

    Porsche Cayman S PDK Aqua Blue / Ocean Blue  (November 10) : Toyota Yaris D4D (Oct 10) 


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    RC:
    Manual sucks. If someone believes he is faster with manual, this is an illusion.

    RC, I think you're missing the point.  No-one is arguing that manual is necessarily faster, it's just less involving.

    As it happens, I'm currently warming to PDK, although it's taken a while.  As I get more used to it, I find that:

    1. You cannot drive it without either sports or sports plus.  Normal mode is lethargic.

    2. Sports plus, despite what I initially thought - isnit' just for the track.  It's great for spirited driving - you've got to get used to the fact that these cars love to rev to 7000rpm

    3. Even in auto, liberal use of the up-shift is not only fun, but it allows you to feel more engaged, allowing it to take over again 4 seconds later (or not).

    4. Finally, if you use PDK like a limo driver, you will feel like a limo driver.  If you engage with it, you will feel like a sportscar driver.  You choose.

    I know I'm preaching to the converted - I'm just going through my own experience and evolving views as a novice to both Porsche and PDK after having enjoyed a powerful manual V8 for many years.

    So after 2 months, I'm am finally glad I went for PDK - IMO it's the best of both worlds after all - but I can still see that some people prefer manual - it is more engaging.

     


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Budster:
    RC:
    Manual sucks. If someone believes he is faster with manual, this is an illusion.

    RC, I think you're missing the point.  No-one is arguing that manual is necessarily faster, it's just less involving.

    As it happens, I'm currently warming to PDK, although it's taken a while.  As I get more used to it, I find that:

    1. You cannot drive it without either sports or sports plus.  Normal mode is lethargic.

    2. Sports plus, despite what I initially thought - isnit' just for the track.  It's great for spirited driving - you've got to get used to the fact that these cars love to rev to 7000rpm

    3. Even in auto, liberal use of the up-shift is not only fun, but it allows you to feel more engaged, allowing it to take over again 4 seconds later (or not).

    4. Finally, if you use PDK like a limo driver, you will feel like a limo driver.  If you engage with it, you will feel like a sportscar driver.  You choose.

    I know I'm preaching to the converted - I'm just going through my own experience and evolving views as a novice to both Porsche and PDK after having enjoyed a powerful manual V8 for many years.

    So after 2 months, I'm am finally glad I went for PDK - IMO it's the best of both worlds after all - but I can still see that some people prefer manual - it is more engaging.

     

    You actually confirmed what I am trying to tell people all the time: With PDK, you have a choice

    I use PDK the same way you do, incl. Sport Chrono Plus mode (which can sometimes be a little bit annoying...for the outside world) but in the end, you have a choice, well spoken.

    Oh, I guess you meant PDK when you referred to "less involving" but the reality is that with PDK, you can get even more involved by actually learning how to control the car better incl. the brake, rather than concentrating on operating the clutch. This is just my personal experience and those who drive manual may not understand that. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    RC:
    Budster:
    RC:

    Oh, I guess you meant PDK when you referred to "less involving" ...

    Yes, I did - sorry for the confusion.  But I think we're on the same page - once you get used to PDK it can be equally involving in a different way, depending on the amount you wish to be involved.


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    to drive a manual fast is far more rewarding than a PDK - eventhough slower. I am impressed about modern double-clutch systems no doubt - and actually even more my buddy's tremendous 458's "AK" gearbox - but going out with both cars I am craving after 30 min behind the 458's wheel to manually do stuff again and I bet once all cars are on "play-station-no-brainer-mode" people will appreciate the old manual much more again. Those cars will be in demand again - mark my words blush


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    @dreamcar: I totally agree about the woeful professionalism and service one gets from certain OPCs in the UK. I have not enjoyed my dealings with OPCs in London: West London (owned by PCGB itself) and East London (owned by Lancaster plc AFAIK).

    The one place that really stands out is OPC Mid Sussex. They are brilliant: professional, polite, prompt and well priced. That's why I was so happy to recommend them to you :)

    Otherwise, for regular servicing every 2 years, I go to OPC Knokke-Heist in Belgium. They are great and much cheaper despite the unfavourable GBP/EUR FX rate.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    BjoernB:

    to drive a manual fast is far more rewarding than a PDK - eventhough slower. I am impressed about modern double-clutch systems no doubt - and actually even more my buddy's tremendous 458's "AK" gearbox - but going out with both cars I am craving after 30 min behind the 458's wheel to manually do stuff again and I bet once all cars are on "play-station-no-brainer-mode" people will appreciate the old manual much more again. Those cars will be in demand again - mark my words blush

    We will get you...mark my words.  Smiley

    Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    agree PDK is much faster, and also full of choices for all types of driving ..

    I just like the clutch and moving gearstick process .. it's harder and requires more concentration to drive fast, so, for me, more fun.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    easy_rider911:

    @dreamcar: I totally agree about the woeful professionalism and service one gets from certain OPCs in the UK. I have not enjoyed my dealings with OPCs in London: West London (owned by PCGB itself) and East London (owned by Lancaster plc AFAIK).

    The one place that really stands out is OPC Mid Sussex. They are brilliant: professional, polite, prompt and well priced. That's why I was so happy to recommend them to you :
     

     Agree completely. East London, Cambridge and Colchester all part of Lancaster.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    I really marvel how much energy goes into the manuel vs. PDK debate. Thank god people still have a choice. It is great that technology makes one faster - its called progress. Still some people like to hunt with bow and arrow although a gun is some more efficient and easier. Certainly does not require the same skill... I would enjoy the debate more if the "converted" would not all turn into preachers though. All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...
    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    And now Inchcape are due to open another local (to me) Porsche dealership, this time in Portsmouth. I'll drive past their showroom on the way to Burgess Hill!  Smiley


    --

    Porsche Cayman S PDK Aqua Blue / Ocean Blue  (November 10) : Toyota Yaris D4D (Oct 10) 


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    TEE:
    I really marvel how much energy goes into the manuel vs. PDK debate. Thank god people still have a choice. It is great that technology makes one faster - its called progress. Still some people like to hunt with bow and arrow although a gun is some more efficient and easier. Certainly does not require the same skill... I would enjoy the debate more if the "converted" would not all turn into preachers though. All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...

    I testdrove a 911 2.7RS a couple of months ago, my dealer had one to sell (for a customer) and I wanted to try it. 

    Well...all I can say is: I am child of the 21st century. Period. Smiley

    Which reminds me of my first experience with the 911: After owning the M3 Coupe (E36), I switched to a 993 without a test drive (very stupid thing but the 911 was my dream car and I had to make a fast decision because of a very convenient offer) and regretted almost every moment driving it. What a huge difference, the 993 was at least one decade behind the M3 at that time, everything felt old and outdated.

    Yes, we have a choice but I wonder why people would prefer old cars over modern cars. Which reminds me of that fellow which had been killed at a speed of only 40 kph in his classic Porsche...the steering wheel (or was it the column ?) kind of penetrated his chest.

    Sorry, I'm not too much into older cars and while I love the Shelby Cobra and I badly wanted to own one, I decided against it after my first test-drive, the car just didn't feel safe.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Reminds me of that guy in his "latest" 911 getting killed on the autobahn because...Not sure that is helpful way of argumentation. Of course mordern cars are safer and hence people feel the need to drive faster than they are capable. But unfortunatley they are not 100%

    I understand all your views and preferences, I also take no issue with it - enjoy what you drive  kiss but lately it seems to me that every person that decides against PDK or AWD gets "lectured" from the broader group for "not getting it"  yes

    Will leave it at that wink


    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    variety is what makes humankind interesting .. and sometimes infuriating smiley


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    dreamcar:
    sfo:
    dreamcar:
    My advice to any British potential Porsche buyer - if it's an Inchcape owned dealership like Porsche Centre Bournemouth - avoid them as if they had bubonic plague Smiley

     

     

    not dealing with Bournemouth ...

    I guessed you weren't using Bournemouth by your London location - the note of warning was for any Rennteamer contemplating acquiring a Porsche - Cambridge is another Inchcape one, I believe.

    A very good friend of mine was also treated shamefully by Guildford, one of the Porsche GB dealerships - they even used his Turbo as a demonstrator when it went in for some minor warranty work when brand new, only discovered by destinations in the Sat Nav memory that he'd never entered and 50 unexplained miles on the clock! Next time he went back there the car received minor damage whilst in their hands and had to threaten legal action to get it fixed; he now uses Porsche Centre mid Sussex in Burgess Hill who have been first class - this is where our Cayman will be serviced.

    --

    Porsche Cayman S PDK Aqua Blue / Ocean Blue  (November 10) : Toyota Yaris D4D (Oct 10) 

    I recently took my Boxster in for a High Pressure Fuel Pump recall. It was raining when I went to pick it up, so I didnt have chance to have a look around the car to check if everything was alright. when I got home I noticed that all my centre caps on the tubo 1 wheels were badly corroded. This cant be I thought, I only had these replaced under warranty 7 months ago. The bottom of the shields were not even lined up to the valves. Someone had taken my prestine centres and put these very corroded and old discoloured ones on. I was furious!! I called OPC and demanded to know what happened. Their answer was that they did not know how this could have happened and it was instant dismissal if any of the staff did this. I got a call later in the day to say they would replace the centre caps but still said they had no idea what happened. CRAZY!! I wont be going back there again.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    TEE:

    I understand all your views and preferences, I also take no issue with it - enjoy what you drive  kiss but lately it seems to me that every person that decides against PDK or AWD gets "lectured" from the broader group for "not getting it"  yes

    Will leave it at that wink

    Fully agree.  Smiley  Life is all about different preferences and tastes.  In these cases, there is no "right" or "wrong" because personal preferences are, by definition, subjective.  For some of us, it's about the "thrill of driving" (to borrow a phrase from evo) - for others, it's all about top speed in a straight line, pure horsepower, 0-100 times, Nurburgring lap times, or whatever.  All of these are valid options and subject to the personal priorities of the individual.

    What I find objectionable is precisely the condescending (even patronising) tone of people who seem to believe that it is their calling to endlessly lecture others to get them to agree with their views.  This is almost as bad as those who condemn others for driving expensive, sporty or "flashy" cars.  Just imagine how boring life would be if we all had the same tastes - we'd all end up driving the same car, in the same colour and with the same options.  So, whether it's manual/PDK, RWD/AWD, or whatever, drive what you love and love what you drive - without giving a hoot what other people think about it.  Smiley

    As an aside, it's interesting to note that the predominant views are, in many cases, quite forum-specific.  By way of example, PDK appears to have become the default majority view (or maybe just the loudest view) on RT.  On other forums, especially those which are more US-centric, it is exactly the opposite - with manual enthusiasts deriding their PDK-owning counterparts.  Go figure.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    sfo:

    Am seriously toying with the idea of a ‘pure’ 981, and deleting 20” wheels, PASM, PTV and Sport Chrono, saving £4k.

    2 of these seem to be the new ‘performance’ options (i.e. PTV [only with PASM] and Sport Chrono) which are a ‘must have’ – am not sure that I will really notice these options in most of the driving I do (very few track days, mostly country roads and motorways), apart from more buttons. For me, it’s all 4 of nothing.

    Salesman suggested trading 6CD, PTV and Sport Chrono for PCM .


    Nice spec. Not sure how much one needs Sport Chrono with the dynamic engine mounts on the mid-engined Boxster, would love to find out how relevant they are. PTV is a nice option, again it massively depends on the calibration of the system. A CD-changer is rather obsolete these days, in my personal opinion, should you upgrade to the PCM you will get the USB-connector as well which should be able to contain all necessary music.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    TEE:
    All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...


    I do remember that you considered acquiring an air-cooled and performance-focussed 911. Tell us more about it... Smiley


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Ferdie:


    Nice spec. Not sure how much one needs Sport Chrono with the dynamic engine mounts on the mid-engined Boxster, would love to find out how relevant they are. PTV is a nice option, again it massively depends on the calibration of the system. A CD-changer is rather obsolete these days, in my personal opinion, should you upgrade to the PCM you will get the USB-connector as well which should be able to contain all necessary music.

     Coming to the same view on Sports Chrono .. all the weight is within the axles, so dyanmic mounts seem unnecessary.

    It's terrible that you cannot get iPOD or USB connectivity without PCM .. even Nissan Micra's have them now. I don't need sat nav, and I won't pay £2141 for PCM, so the £316 6CD (MP3 compatible, so about 600 songs) will have to do.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Ferdie:
    TEE:
    All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...


    I do remember that you considered acquiring an air-cooled and performance-focussed 911. Tell us more about it... Smiley

     Smiley you have a good memory. Think it will meet the above, yet surprise you Smiley


    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Clever way of forcing the customers to select the navigation system. I do believe though that the PCM might be valuable at resale, should you consider that in foreseeable times. 


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    TEE:
    Ferdie:
    TEE:
    All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...


    I do remember that you considered acquiring an air-cooled and performance-focussed 911. Tell us more about it... Smiley

     Smiley you have a good memory. Think it will meet the above, yet surprise you Smiley


    Now you´re making me very curious... Smiley


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    Ferdie:

    Clever way of forcing the customers to select the navigation system. I do believe though that the PCM might be valuable at resale, should you consider that in foreseeable times. 

     It will help residuals but not by anywhere near its cost ... anyway, the 981S should be staying for around 4 years.


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    @PureBlue: In terms of performance, PDK is more efficient and the laptimes don't lie so one can't argue with that. However, in terms of driving pleasure, I totally agree with you. What appeals to each person will obviously differ. Like you, I love manual transmissions :) I don't like a 'PlayStation' experience no matter how efficient or quick it is. I like moving a lever in a slot and controlling the clutch pedal :) I enjoy that interaction.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Goodbye RS60 Spyder ... Hello 981S

    TEE:
    Ferdie:
    TEE:
    All this from a guy who traded his GT3 for a car without power steering, ABS and PDK. Think the car does not even have electronics...


    I do remember that you considered acquiring an air-cooled and performance-focussed 911. Tell us more about it... Smiley

     Smiley you have a good memory. Think it will meet the above, yet surprise you Smiley

    More information needed! Smiley


     
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