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Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
jerrygee said:Quote:
nberry said:
If you foot is not wide enough to roll toward the throttle then use the bottom half of your foot for braking and the upper part for the throttle. The critical part of heel and toe is the throttle which requires feel when you blip. Your toes are much more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous.
I agree that the toes are more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous and would likely lead to a nice heel and toe downshift but the most critical part of setting up for a turn taken at speed is the braking. I would rather be off a bit with my throttle during the downshift and smooth things with the clutch but be spot on with my braking. All things being equal there is no other single driver input the will affect lap speeds more than your braking technique.
It would be next to impossible to threshold brake using your heel as it does not have the sensitivity of your upper foot to receive the feedback from the tires being transmitted through the brake pedal nor is there the dexterity to properly modulate the brake pedal to maintain the proper brake pressure. You can quickly articulate the upper part of your foot at the ankle but the heel would need to be articulated at the knee and hip which would be too slow and insensitive to maintain the proper brake pressure.
But then again you could just mash hard on the brakes with your heel and let the ABS sort things out.
I agree with your post. But keep in mind brakes today are more sensitive and don't need extraordinary pressure to do their job. This is particularly true with carbon/ceramic brakes.
Also consider that the throttle has a long pedal and is more responsive by applying pressure near or at the top and not the bottom.
That said, rolling the foot is the preferred approach.
BTW, I cannot be believe I am agreeing with Adias but H&T is archaic (though necessary on the track if using an antiquated manual transmission) and certainly not needed in street driving (other than for practice).
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW, I cannot be believe I am agreeing with Adias but H&T is archaic (though necessary on the track if using an antiquated manual transmission) and certainly not needed in street driving (other than for practice).
I guess it depends where (and how) you do your street driving. Where I live, there are many opportunities to H&T and occasional opportunities to lose the car over a significant drop-off if you don't H&T (or do it poorly)...
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
nberry said:... BTW, I cannot be believe I am agreeing with Adias but H&T is archaic (though necessary on the track if using an antiquated manual transmission) and certainly not needed in street driving (other than for practice).
Hey Nick! That's cause for celebration. Perhaps next time I am in the area. I'll be in SD in late August for a conference but have no spare time.
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
nberry said:... BTW, I cannot be believe I am agreeing with Adias but H&T is archaic (though necessary on the track if using an antiquated manual transmission) and certainly not needed in street driving (other than for practice).
Hey Nick! That's cause for celebration. Perhaps next time I am in the area. I'll be in SD in late August for a conference but have no spare time.
Grant, remind me not to ride with you if I am in your area.
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
nberry said:
If you foot is not wide enough to roll toward the throttle then use the bottom half of your foot for braking and the upper part for the throttle. The critical part of heel and toe is the throttle which requires feel when you blip. Your toes are much more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous
Actually that won't work very well and is verty unsafe. Use the ball of your foot for braking and roll your foot towards the gas pedal to blip it. By using the ball of your foot you effectively narrow the gap between the pedals but still have the capability of providing enough pressure on the Brake pedal to slow/stop safely (the main priority). It takes less force to blip the throtlle with the side (RHS) of the foot.
That is how they taught me in the the Ferrari school too !
Jul 27, 2007 12:47:52 AM
- SurferDude
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- Loc: Virginia
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- Reply to: cnc
Jul 27, 2007 1:45:33 AM
- Grant
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: Denver, CO , United States
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- Reply to: SurferDude
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
SurferDude said:
Sorry if this is a naive question, but where in corner would you HT shift? I would assume before you started the turn, while the car is still going straight.
Yes, you are correct. When more advanced you can do it a little later just as you are turning in...
Re: Heal and Toe
The funny thing about all of this heal tow stuff is that most of the people that I work with have no idea what to do with a race car can and do understand the shift process. Most country people grow up driving machines and have a great developed sence of machine. I think some of the people who can buy this type of car have no chance of ever knowing how to drive but just trying to learn. I drive a dump truck everyday and my RS will be built this week. I know I can drive. To mesh a 18 speed with a 625 hp cat in all conditions with 80,000lb on the tare you have to know how to drive. If coal truck drives could spend the weekend in your cars I think your lap times will pale.
Just my Kentucky two cents worth.
Jim Huber
Just my Kentucky two cents worth.
Jim Huber
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
jimhuber said:... To mesh a 18 speed with a 625 hp cat in all conditions with 80,000lb on the tare you have to know how to drive. If coal truck drives could spend the weekend in your cars I think your lap times will pale.
Just my Kentucky two cents worth.
Jim Huber
I imagine there is a bit of a difference between driving an 80,000lb mammoth and a 3,000lb 911. We look forward to hearing your exploits with your new RS.
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
TT Gasman said:
If HT is so antiquated then why do they spend time teaching it at PDE? They're only current factory race drivers what do they know LOL!
FWIW the key to proper and easy HT is completion of 80% of the braking first. It's acually quite easy in the 996/7 series.
Because most of the cars Porsche sells are manual. THeir PDE is performance oriented geared toward track work.
FWIW both Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry (Porsche factory drivers of some repute
) told me unequivically they preferred Tip over manual.
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
If HT is so antiquated then why do they spend time teaching it at PDE? They're only current factory race drivers what do they know LOL!
FWIW the key to proper and easy HT is completion of 80% of the braking first. It's acually quite easy in the 996/7 series.
Because most of the cars Porsche sells are manual. THeir PDE is performance oriented geared toward track work.
FWIW both Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry (Porsche factory drivers of some repute
I like Heel and Toe, but you're right. See this article :
Canadian Driver.
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
Dubliner said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
If HT is so antiquated then why do they spend time teaching it at PDE? They're only current factory race drivers what do they know LOL!
FWIW the key to proper and easy HT is completion of 80% of the braking first. It's acually quite easy in the 996/7 series.
Because most of the cars Porsche sells are manual. THeir PDE is performance oriented geared toward track work.
FWIW both Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry (Porsche factory drivers of some repute
I like Heel and Toe, but you're right. See this article :
Canadian Driver.
QUOTE (from article)
Still, if I had $162,516, I would buy the Turbo with the six-speed manual for the extra control and fun-to-drive characteristics that a traditional manual transmission offers.
UNQUOTE
Exactly the point. It's about the fun..
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
jerrygee said:Quote:
nberry said:
If you foot is not wide enough to roll toward the throttle then use the bottom half of your foot for braking and the upper part for the throttle. The critical part of heel and toe is the throttle which requires feel when you blip. Your toes are much more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous.
I agree that the toes are more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous and would likely lead to a nice heel and toe downshift but the most critical part of setting up for a turn taken at speed is the braking. I would rather be off a bit with my throttle during the downshift and smooth things with the clutch but be spot on with my braking.
It would be next to impossible to threshold brake using your heel as it does not have the sensitivity of your upper foot to receive the feedback from the tires being transmitted through the brake pedal nor is there the dexterity to properly modulate the brake pedal to maintain the proper brake pressure.
Thank you for expressing my thoughts and especially for doing so much more lucidly than I could have.
Quote:
jerrygee said:
But then again you could just mash hard on the brakes with your heel and let the ABS sort things out.
But where are the skill and fun in doing that?
Which was exactly your point, I guess.
Jul 27, 2007 10:35:16 PM
- Jim_in_Iowa
- Pilot
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- Loc: US
- Posts: 333, Gallery
- Registered on: May 18, 2005
- Reply to: nberry
Re: Heel and Toe
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
If HT is so antiquated then why do they spend time teaching it at PDE? They're only current factory race drivers what do they know LOL!
FWIW the key to proper and easy HT is completion of 80% of the braking first. It's acually quite easy in the 996/7 series.
Because most of the cars Porsche sells are manual. THeir PDE is performance oriented geared toward track work.
FWIW both Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry (Porsche factory drivers of some repute
How many times a year do Hurley and Dave shift manuals? I think part of what influences them is they shift thousands of times more a month than those who don't drive as they do. No wonder they're fatigued. Dave's heel and toe is flawless, I must say.
Jul 28, 2007 12:57:26 PM
- aparker5
- Newbie
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- Loc: NC, USA
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- Reply to: tubescreamerules
Re: Heel and Toe
I learned to heel and toe barefoot. You have a really good feel for the pedals barefoot and you can blip the throttle with the right side of your foot easily at street speeds. Once I got the hang of it I bought some good driving shoes and they work great. When driving a 997 very aggressively the car just will not shift from 3rd to 2nd or from 2nd to 1st without heel/toe shifting.
Jul 28, 2007 11:44:06 PM
- seattle_sun
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- Loc: Seattle, WA
- Posts: 18, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 4, 2006
- Reply to: Dubliner
Re: Heal and Toe
Quote:
Dubliner said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
TT Gasman said:
If HT is so antiquated then why do they spend time teaching it at PDE? They're only current factory race drivers what do they know LOL!
FWIW the key to proper and easy HT is completion of 80% of the braking first. It's acually quite easy in the 996/7 series.
Because most of the cars Porsche sells are manual. THeir PDE is performance oriented geared toward track work.
FWIW both Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry (Porsche factory drivers of some repute
I like Heel and Toe, but you're right. See this article :
Canadian Driver.
To tell you the truth, when I was at PDE, I never believed everything they said. Great guys, but they were Porsche employees. It seemed that every recommendation they had was the most expensive!
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