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    997 GT2 tuning question

    I want to put a remap program on my GT2 for a bit more power, any suggestions?

    What do you think about the ockley design? and the APR? or techart? I dont know which one to choose very confused.


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Well TB993tt has been researching this very question for his 997GT2:

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20070269/Incoming_GT2/page1.html 

    I think he's leaning towards RS-Tuning (Cargraphic)


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    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    error for me in the link

    by the way,oakley is good but consider also cargraphic-rs tuning and manthey as top porsche tuners


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    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    EUNICE - bug!!

    Try page 2 link: http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20070307/Re_Incoming_GT2/page2.html#20070307


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    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Have put all this stuff on Rennlist but here it is for those who don't visit there....

     

    I fitted Cargraphic/RS Tuning headers and cats to the GT2, dyno chart is below.....

     

    This is a fantastic modification, sounds like stock at idel and cruise but glorious when on boost exciting and quite exotic sounding...... The weather is cold at the moment in the UK ~0degC and when I stab the throttle at 3000rpm in 3rd gear upwards, the torque will overwhelm the stock clutch !!!

    I reckon in these temperatures the engine is kicking out ~740NM in order to slip the clutch and it must be the suddeness of the torque delivery which makes it slip since 997tts with the smaller VTGs seem able to cope with mid to high 700NM without such slippage....

    The first graph below is standard 500 miles ZERO mods 0 DegC 60-130 in 8.3s

     

    The graph below is same track 10 degC cats and headers 1600 miles RS engine dyno proven at 560PS/700NM....... 60-130 in 7.8s

     

     

    560hp.JPG


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Brave of you to do a 130mph full-bore acceleration run at 0 degrees C in a RWD GT2! smiley00003.gif

    Nice stats though Toby!! 

    What's next in your mod plans???


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    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Hi Alex, this car has loads of traction as long as its dry,....

    The car feels really sweet how it is, I guess when the weather gets warmer it may start to lose its edge as the IATs heat up so may need the ECU tune although I am reluctant to void the warranty when it it feels plenty fast - a 600rpm higher limiter would be nice however...

    What do you make of the slipping clutch ? is yours doing it ? try 4th gear, hold at 3000rpm then boot the throttle WOT aggressively, big growl and clutch slip is what I am seeing even with 700NM (prob more like 740NM in this temp).... If yours isn't slipping then why not ? is it the bigger VTGs giving a harder initial hit ?Smiley

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Don't know about the clutch slip Toby. 

    I must admit that in the winter I never put the car into even Sport mode for full over-boost torque, there is just no need as she's plenty fast enough in normal mode (under 1.0 bar boost). 

    My car is feeling a bit twitchy currently under high acceleration anyway (even in a straight line on a-roads) so I have booked back in to see Chris at Center Gravity.  We are going to play with the geo and sway settings some more.

    I have seen 1.2 bar plenty last summer though on the motorways and no clutch slip at all.

    What max boost does your GT2 produce on the gauge?


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    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    i would not touch my GT2......the car is really perfect as it is.

    it's not a drag racer...it's more of a track car and adding power can make it undriveable on the track.


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    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Alex, in current weather boost is about 1.2bar max, the way the GT2 engine is mapped the boost ramps up to ~1bar for peak torque then stays there til ~5000rpm then it goes up again to 1.2-1.4bar (according to ambient conditions) and the expansion manifold does its thing with the boost staying at this level to the limiter.

    intouch.... trust me I guarantee you you would not look back from this mod, it does not change the factory programming so the character of the torque delivery is the same, the extra torque is pure efficiency......


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    funny you talk about boost. just yesterday i took my gt2 for a run as the kid of one of my managers was dreaming about a ride in a porsche. he's 10 years old and i picked him up from school.....about a 40 km drive to his parents house.....never have i seen a 10 year old so quite :)

     

    on the way there i played around with the car to see when what boost is on tap. ambient temperature is about 27 C at the moment.

    boost is mainyl stuck around 1.0-1.1 bar. only in the hugher rev range from about 5000 rpm did it go all the way to 1.4......

    the boost of my turbo tip is very different. it always maxes at 1.1-1.2 when nailing kickdown.

    gt2 is mighty faster Smiley


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    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    TB993tt:

    [...] I reckon in these temperatures the engine is kicking out ~740NM in order to slip the clutch


    Are you fairly certain that the clutch is the slipping component and not the tires? Smiley


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    TB993tt:

    560hp.JPG

    There is something wrong with those torque and power charts. The two torque curves cross at 6250 rpm, but the power curves continue to diverge.

    Has physics changed since I went to school? Smiley


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    fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Has physics changed since I went to school? Smiley

     


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    fritz

            There have been some major changes in nature recently Smiley


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    MKSGR:

    Has physics changed since I went to school? Smiley

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    fritz

            There have been some major changes in nature recently Smiley


    That's correct, they have released Version 0.9 (beta for public preview) - less power consumption while maintaining a higher overall temperature.


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    Matt C
    2005 997 C2S / 1988 911 3.2 Conv.


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

     

    I told Cargraphic that their graph was wrong and they revised it - see below, but it is still wrong !

    Ferdie, It is definately the clutch slipping.

     

    560.jpg


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Matt C:
    MKSGR:

    Has physics changed since I went to school? Smiley

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    fritz


            There have been some major changes in nature recently Smiley

    That's correct, they have released Version 0.9 (beta for public preview) - less power consumption while maintaining a higher overall temperature.

    --

    Matt C 

    I guess that'll be to make provision for global warming?  Smiley  Smiley

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    fritz


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    TB993tt:

     

    I told Cargraphic that their graph was wrong and they revised it - see below, but it is still wrong !

    560.jpg

    Yes, it is still wrong. Smiley
    Since their torque / power plots are obviously not computer-generated maybe they should give the job of correcting them to an apprentice, who should at least recognize at first sight that something is wrong with them.  On the other hand, he may already be fully occupied doing their dyno development work for them. Smiley
     


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    fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    Fritz

    They are supposedly copied directly from RS Tuning engine dyno diagrams but like you say they are badly copied !

    I did ask for an original diagram but nothing was forthcoming.....

    I can however confirm that the quoted increased numbers are very realistic based on the road performance with these parts... 


    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    TB993tt:

    Fritz

    They are supposedly copied directly from RS Tuning engine dyno diagrams but like you say they are badly copied !

    It's not just a question of bad copying. Engine dynos actually measure torque through the rev range, and the corresponding power figures are then calculated from the torque at each engine speed according to the formula:

    P  = 2  x  pi  x  M  x  n

    or simplified to:

    P  =  M x n / 9549

    where

    P  =  Power in kW, M   =  Torque in Nm, and n = engine speed in rpm.

    The relationships for the respective power and torque curves for each engine shown above do not correspond to each other, even allowing for multiplication of torque figures by engine speed, and it is more than just a question of the dots being badly joined up. 
    Two engines whose torque curves crossed at a certain rpm, as shown in the first example, would by definition also have the same power output at that engine speed.      


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    fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 tunning question

    fritz:
    TB993tt:

    Fritz


    It's not just a question of bad copying. Engine dynos actually measure torque through the rev range, and the corresponding power figures are then calculated from the torque at each engine speed according to the formula:

    P  = 2  x  pi  x  M  x  n

    or simplified to:

    P  =  M x n / 9549

    where

    P  =  Power in kW, M   =  Torque in Nm, and n = engine speed in rpm.

    The relationships for the respective power and torque curves for each engine shown above do not correspond to each other, even allowing for multiplication of torque figures by engine speed, and it is more than just a question of the dots being badly joined up. 
    Two engines whose torque curves crossed at a certain rpm, as shown in the first example, would by definition also have the same power output at that engine speed.      


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    fritz

            Or for hp sae: hp sae = torque lb/ft * rpm/5252

    I think you will find it is just bad copying Smiley


    Re: 997 GT2 tuning question

    TB993tt:
    fritz:
    TB993tt:

    Fritz


    It's not just a question of bad copying. Engine dynos actually measure torque through the rev range, and the corresponding power figures are then calculated from the torque at each engine speed according to the formula:

    P  = 2  x  pi  x  M  x  n

    or simplified to:

    P  =  M x n / 9549

    where

    P  =  Power in kW, M   =  Torque in Nm, and n = engine speed in rpm.

    The relationships for the respective power and torque curves for each engine shown above do not correspond to each other, even allowing for multiplication of torque figures by engine speed, and it is more than just a question of the dots being badly joined up. 
    Two engines whose torque curves crossed at a certain rpm, as shown in the first example, would by definition also have the same power output at that engine speed.      


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    fritz

            Or for hp sae: hp sae = torque lb/ft * rpm/5252

    I think you will find it is just bad copying Smiley

    The amateur pedant in me says that "bad copying" does not explain how the torque values of both engines have fallen to an identical level of around 260 Nm at 6750 rpm, but the power curves have continued to diverge to a difference in value of about 30 hp at the same rpm. A physical impossibility. Smiley

    It does say that whoever "corrected" the graphs before sending them to you must have been a dilettante not to have noticed this discrepancy. Smiley

    To take pedantry to its conclusion, the British unit for torque was in fact "lb ft" (pounds feet),  not "lb/ft" (pounds per foot), or  -  to follow British engineering convention absolutely correctly -  the unit of torque should in fact be "lbf ft",  where "lbf" is the abbreviation for "pounds force" to differentiate it from "pounds mass". A pound force and a pound mass are only identical when gravitational "force" happens to be 1g. That is, at the earth's surface. Smiley


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    fritz

    Re: 997 GT2 tuning question

    fritz


      the amateur pedant in me says that "bad copying" does not explain how the torque values of both engines have fallen to an identical level of around 260 Nm at 6750 rpm, but the power curves have continued to diverge to a difference in value of about 30 hp at the same rpm. A physical impossibility. Smiley

    It does say that whoever "corrected" the graphs before sending them to you must have been a dilettante not to have noticed this discrepancy. Smiley

    To take pedantry to its conclusion, the British unit for torque was in fact "lb ft" (pounds feet),  not "lb/ft" (pounds per foot), or  -  to follow British engineering convention absolutely correctly -  the unit of torque should in fact be "lbf ft",  where "lbf" is the abbreviation for "pounds force" to differentiate it from "pounds mass". A pound force and a pound mass are only identical when gravitational "force" happens to be 1g. That is, at the earth's surface. Smiley


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    fritz
    You mean 600NM at 6750rpm, which is about 577PS - so according to the graph even the stock motor has 577PS Smiley

    I am guessing that they copy the graphs since the original data will come to them in that "join the dot" format from RS Tuning's software - someone has just innacurately and sloppily transfered the data, very poor imo and as you say to allow the torque values to become the same (actually worse for the tuned engine in the first uncorrected diagram!) at peak power shows a complete lack of understanding which is somewhat disturbing for a company selling this sort of high end stuff ! My guess is it was left to some "creative" to do ?

    Thanks for the lesson in "lbf ft" - didn't know that Smiley



    Re: 997 GT2 tuning question

    TB993tt:
    fritz


      the amateur pedant in me says that "bad copying" does not explain how the torque values of both engines have fallen to an identical level of around 260 Nm at 6750 rpm, but the power curves have continued to diverge to a difference in value of about 30 hp at the same rpm. A physical impossibility. Smiley

    It does say that whoever "corrected" the graphs before sending them to you must have been a dilettante not to have noticed this discrepancy. Smiley

    --
    fritz
    You mean 600NM at 6750rpm, which is about 577PS - so according to the graph even the stock motor has 577PS Smiley

    I am guessing that they copy the graphs since the original data will come to them in that "join the dot" format from RS Tuning's software - someone has just innacurately and sloppily transfered the data, very poor imo and as you say to allow the torque values to become the same (actually worse for the tuned engine in the first uncorrected diagram!) at peak power shows a complete lack of understanding which is somewhat disturbing for a company selling this sort of high end stuff ! My guess is it was left to some "creative" to do ?

    1) Re: "You mean 600NM at 6750rpm, which is about 577PS - so according to the graph even the stock motor has 577PS" Smiley

    You are right about the torque figure for both engines being shown as about 600 Nm at 6750 rpm, of course. That's what I get for calling someone else a dilettante!  Smiley

    600Nm at 6750rpm works out to be 424 kW or 577 metric hp/PS, which obviously cannot be right for the stock engine. The manufacturer's graph indicates figures around 550 Nm and 390 kW / 530 PS. Someone appears to have used the wrong figures for the graph for the stock engine.

    2) Re: "... someone has just innacurately and sloppily transfered the data, very poor imo and as you say to allow the torque values to become the same (actually worse for the tuned engine in the first uncorrected diagram!) at peak power shows a complete lack of understanding which is somewhat disturbing for a company selling this sort of high end stuff ! "

    That's exactly what I thought, and is why I have labored this point somewhat in this thread.


    2) Re: "My guess is it was left to some "creative" to do ?

    Smiley

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    fritz

     
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