Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    luque:
    Obviously 458 has shorter gear ratios in comparison to 911 Turbo S or Mercedes AMG SLS. Its engine revs up to 9100 rpm (instead of 6500 - 7000 rpm of 911 turbo or mercedes).

     

     


    Hmm... You need to get the facts right I am affraid.

    Max. revs on SLS AMG are 7200rpm, same on 997.2 Turbo S.

    Ferrari is using very short overall gear ratios on 458 to tame true lack of torque on low revs. Period. High reving engine do not need to use gear ratios that short. It was a Ferrari deliberate decision.

    Also you MUST order all very expensive CARBON FIBRE items on 458 to get close to official weight claim by Ferrari. Otherwise in standard trim 458 is 1600kg car. Few members here even measured weight of their 458... So, in other words-yes, 458 is extremly fast on the Ring-when it costs above 250K € in Germany(with all CF options). We here on rennteam already discussed this fenomenon few times...

    Do not get me wrong 458 is probably the best sportscar on the market currently.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:
    luque:
    Obviously 458 has shorter gear ratios in comparison to 911 Turbo S or Mercedes AMG SLS. Its engine revs up to 9100 rpm (instead of 6500 - 7000 rpm of 911 turbo or mercedes).

     

     


    Hmm... You need to get the facts right I am affraid.

    Max. revs on SLS AMG are 7200rpm, same on 997.2 Turbo S.

    Ferrari is using very short overall gear ratios on 458 to tame true lack of torque on low revs. Period. High reving engine do not need to use gear ratios that short. It was a Ferrari deliberate decision.

    Also you MUST order all very expensive CARBON FIBRE items on 458 to get close to official weight claim by Ferrari. Otherwise in standard trim 458 is 1600kg car. Few members here even measured weight of their 458... So, in other words-yes, 458 is extremly fast on the Ring-when it costs above 250K € in Germany(with all CF options). We here on rennteam already discussed this fenomenon few times...

    Do not get me wrong 458 is probably the best sportscar on the market currently.

    Kresi,
    This is a simple table showing up :
    1)      Speed at 1000 rpm for 458, California and F430
    2)      Max speed in each gear at rpm power peak

      Speed at 1000 rpm          
    GEAR 1a 2a 3a 4a 5a 6a 7a
    458 8,5 12,0 16,1 20,3 25,4 31,2 38,0
    California 8,9 13,8 18,6 23,2 29,3 35,9 41,9
    430 9,1 13,8 18,6 23,5 29,0 36,5 -
      Speed at rpm power peak        
    GEAR 1a 2a 3a 4a 5a 6a 7a Vmax
    458 (9000 rpm) 77 108 145 183 229 281 342 327 / 8750 rpm
    California (7750 rpm) 69 107 144 180 227 278 325 310 / 7400 rpm
    430 (8500 rpm) 77 118 158 200 247 310   317 / 8700 rpm

     

    Everybody can simple notice that 458 gear ratios have been shortened (mainly final drive ratio was changed) in comparison to California BUT max speeds at power peak rpm  for each gear are the same. This means gear ratios have been only adapted to longer rpm range of the 458 and to the facts it has 20 inches rim option (Increase rims diameter increase speed at given rpm so you have to short gear ratios).
    Top speed can be reached under power peak rpm, this is a bit strange for Ferrari models (see F430, 360 Modena, F40, F50 etc etc.) that normally reach top speed over rpm peak power.
    About 458 options, I don’t understand the point. Also a stock manual 997.2 turbo will be slower than a 997.2 PDK turbo S and you pay for both PDK and extra horsepower.
    Cheer
    PS. the only options  that really help is 20 inches option rims that help to reduce unsprung mass improving acceleration and tyre – track contact.


     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

     I am having difficulty following the logic of this thread. Kreso reports the finding of an objective test among several sport cars driven by a competent driver showing that the SLS came in second to last among seven sport cars.

    My thoughts as I read his post were it confirmed what every magazine has found; the SLS failed to come out on top in any comparisons involving high performance sport cars.

    YET, it as though a gaseous cloud enveloped me causing me to hallucinate, I began to read that the posters were so impressed with the SLS they had to get one.

     I have not driven the car so it is not for me to judge critically. But I do know that just about every expert that has, has found the car wanting. I don't recall ever experiencing such positive reaction to primarily negative findings.

    VERY STRANGE.


    --

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Nick, even AB Sportscar test driver Sascha Bert is very, very impressed with SLS AMG.

    To explain results even further Turbo S was equipewith Aerokit, Bucket seats etc.-it was the lightest possible configuration(most Turbo S buyers are not buying that options).

    SLS AMG was not equpied with optional Ceramic brakes and Bucket seats. It would shave around 25kg from its weight. I can even bet that SLS AMG in its lightest configuration is faster then Turbo S on the Ring.

    Why? It is going faster in almost all corners on the Ring. Turbo S is very, very fast on straight line. Faster corners are not its Forte...

     

    Further quotes of German and UK SLS AMG reviews and comparisons:

    -German AMS-SLS AMG better in drive dynamics then Turbo S

    -UK EVO-SLS AMG best drivers car in comparison with several sportscars, amoung others Turbo S, 599 GTB and R8 V10 included

    -German AZ-SLS AMG faster on their test track then Turbo PDK and R8 V10

    So, negative findings? NOT at all. Maybe I did not translate from German some comments very well. That AB Sportscar comparison was more then positive for SLS AMG...


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    reginos:

    Also didn't you find the SLS long bonnet very cumbersome for placement on winding and not very wide roads?


    Look at this technical drawing. I find overall proportions pretty good for overall layout(engine behind front axle and rear gearbox).


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    No doubt the handling of a RD high performance sport car will be better than an AWD. I immediately noticed the difference with the Turbo compared to the Ferrari's I owned.

    That said, the performance results from the various magazine tests do not find the SLS any where near the top. It is true drivers like the car and sing it praise but there is a disconnect between their liking the car and its performance.

    I guess you need to drive it to appreciate it. Personally, I was turned off with the smallish cabin and long bonnet. It just did not have a sport car feel.  


    --

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Nick where are these negative SLS stats you speak of.

    I think considering the layout, options, it is very damn close second to the 458. It being as fast or even faster in lightest form over the Turbo S is a HUGE achievement from Mercedes.

    It therefore makes it a VERY potent and serious sports car. Probably giving the most comfort in true Mercedes fashion while keeping up with the big boys is nothing short of impressive.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

     

    I wouldn't say that the 560's time is a sign of the age of sequential manuals. The R8 GT uses one and is very fast, right?


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    wedouglas:

     

    I wouldn't say that the 560's time is a sign of the age of sequential manuals. The R8 GT uses one and is very fast, right?


    R8 GT is very fast. R Tronic is pure CRAP. How about that?

    German Auto Zeitung killed the clutch on R8 GT test car after only two accelerations runs. That speaks for itself IMO. R tronic is jerky and in Sport mode on R8 GT abuse the gearbox and clutch as much as possible. I can almost bet that there will be many killed clutches(and gearboxes) on R8 GT. Also for your info-clutch on R8 V10 is IMHO too weak for this car-it is the same clutch as on R8 V8. Recently German AB Sportscar edition created a pudding of R8 V10 Spyder manual clutch after long spirited driving session on country roads...

    There is NO sign of the age of sequential manuals-they are officially dead. Only stupid Lamorghini will bring old 7 speed sequntial manual again(good guess-where is it coming from?Smiley) in Murci replacement. Reason? Lambo owmers like that jerkiness and head movement while shifting...Smiley


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Pick any magazine that conducted comparison tests and you will find the SLS performance below several other high performance sport cars. To my knowledge, there has not been any comparison tests that showed the SLS near the top in performance. It is what it is. 


    --

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Nick, what is below several other sportscars? 997.2 Turbo S? You must be kidding? SLS is at least as good as Turbo S-not only in my opinion but, also according to several well respected European magazine like EVO, AMS and Sport Auto.

    458 Italia? Do you know that ALL press cars are equpied with FULL CF options and that most of them cost above 250K € in Germany? It is already a common knowledge that 458 NEEDS to be equiped with full CF options to achieve Ferrari claimed weight figures(and to be as fast as Ferrari claim at the same time).

    Do you know what SLS AMG is IMHO? The best front engine true sportscar currently on the market. No more, no less.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Ok, quite subjective: But I'm with Nick. I never found any sportcar comp. in German magazines where the SLS was on top as a result. But there's no doubt, the SLS is a pretty competitive car with an almost reverse concept compared to the Turbo S. So both cars a real fun toys! For my personal usage here in germany the SLS is to much flashy with it's public perception and the gullwings. I prefer the understatement with cars like X5 and 911. Both you can see here at every corner. Btw.: many congrats kreso. perfect color!
    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Conny,

    I agree with you but, 911 an understatement car? Specially 997.2 Turbo or Turbo S, not to mention GT2 RS? Hmm...

    I do not think so. For me there are only two sportscar on the market that I really love-997.2 Turbo PDK or Turbo S and SLS AMG. Ideal scenario-both ones in garage... With something like Q5 3.0TDI or new 535d as daily driver. Of course, this is my personal opinion.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Ok, it seems to be quite unbelievable but the 911 here in Munich IS understatement pure. The exeption may be a GT 3 RS, GT2 RS etc. Nobody here take a look on a 911 while driving or parking and that's the best protection against vandalism.
    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    Conny,

    I agree with you but, 911 an understatement car? Specially 997.2 Turbo or Turbo S, not to mention GT2 RS? Hmm...

    I do not think so. For me there are only two sportscar on the market that I really love-997.2 Turbo PDK or Turbo S and SLS AMG. Ideal scenario-both ones in garage... With something like Q5 3.0TDI or new 535d as daily driver. Of course, this is my personal opinion.

    If I were to have 2 sports car in my ideal Garage, one of them should be 458 Smiley

    I agree about 535d as daily driver, though. Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Regarding the Sequential Manual - Pagani's new C9 (Zonda Replacement) will only be available with a Sequential Manual.  Mr. Pagani said that the Dual-Clutch was too Heavy.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    Conny,

    I agree with you but, 911 an understatement car? Specially 997.2 Turbo or Turbo S, not to mention GT2 RS? Hmm...

    I do not think so. For me there are only two sportscar on the market that I really love-997.2 Turbo PDK or Turbo S and SLS AMG. Ideal scenario-both ones in garage... With something like Q5 3.0TDI or new 535d as daily driver. Of course, this is my personal opinion.

    Can't speak for your country Kreso, but over here any 911 baring the RS are understated.  No one (other than red blooded male in the know) even looks at my GT3, nor friends' Turbo and Turbo S.  To most people it is just another 911 which for all they know, could be 15 years old.  As for the SLS, yes, it's a brilliant front engine sports cars, but I am with Nick on this, I can't justify paying a premium over a R8 V10, Turbo S etc when it doesn't win comparisons against them.  Good car yes, best in class no is how I sum it up.  I mean really, every car in that league is brilliant.  Bring on McLaren, that is the one I am waiting for now!


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    Nick, what is below several other sportscars? 997.2 Turbo S? You must be kidding? SLS is at least as good as Turbo S-not only in my opinion but, also according to several well respected European magazine like EVO, AMS and Sport Auto.

    458 Italia? Do you know that ALL press cars are equpied with FULL CF options and that most of them cost above 250K € in Germany? It is already a common knowledge that 458 NEEDS to be equiped with full CF options to achieve Ferrari claimed weight figures(and to be as fast as Ferrari claim at the same time).

    Do you know what SLS AMG is IMHO? The best front engine true sportscar currently on the market. No more, no less.

     Kreso, front engine sport car in this day is an oxymoron. Very few high performance sport cars have front engines and there are excellent reason as to why not.

    From the very first day I participated in the focus group sessions on the SLS I was not a fan. Personally the car strikes me as a gimmick with the retro wing doors and retro elongated hood giving the appearance of massive hp. To me it looks like a gym shoe.

    But I must emphasize I have not driven the car and I have the highest regard for your car knowledge. If you say it is something special, I am certain it is. It just is not for me and apparently many sport car enthusiast in the US. The car is readily available here.

    BTW, do you believe it will outperform the Corvette Z01? I don't think so.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

     Front engine doesn't make for poor sport cars. Not at all. If they can make insanely fast race cars that are front engine, they can do the same for production cars.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Nick,

    IMHO the best sportscar currently on the market is 458. Period. Just... I do not like that almost cheating option policy on 458-CF is a must if you want that weight figures...

    Other thing is the fact that Ferrari service department still do not exist on my market-that is my personal reason for demur. Going to other country(if only 250kms) is not acceptable for me.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    Nick,

    IMHO the best sportscar currently on the market is 458. Period. Just... I do not like that almost cheating option policy on 458-CF is a must if you want that weight figures...

    As far as I know, biggest weight saving on 458 option list is the carbon bucket seats (from Scuderia) and forged sport rims. Other interior carbon options are purely cosmatic. Besides, now there is an Akrapovic titan. exhaust for 458 which is rumoured to save 15 kg.

    What other carbon options save weight from 458?


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Onur,

    Carbon fibre front wings(FCWS), Carbon fibre rear diffusor(CEDX), Carbon fibre sill covers(CEXS) and Cabre fibre racing seats(RSCH) are ALL a MUST options if you want weight figures below 1560kg. BUT, look at cost of these options...

    Do you know German price for 458 that was used for this comparison test and for SA Supertest? Above 250K €... It is equiped with all important weight saving CF options.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    Onur,

    Carbon fibre front wings(FCWS), Carbon fibre rear diffusor(CEDX), Carbon fibre sill covers(CEXS) and Cabre fibre racing seats(RSCH) are ALL a MUST options if you want weight figures below 1560kg. BUT, look at cost of these options...

    Do you know German price for 458 that was used for this comparison test and for SA Supertest? Above 250K €... It is equiped with all important weight saving CF options.

    I haven't known option FCWS - CEDX - CEXS save this much important weight off the Car. Most important I haven't heard option FCWS and CEDX for 458 before. Do you know how much weight do they save?

    RSCH sports seats and sports wheels are good enough for me Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    FCWS+CEDX+CEXS= almost 20kg in total.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    KresoF1:

    FCWS+CEDX+CEXS= almost 20kg in total.

    Smiley And cost an arm and a leg, so one cannot get away with a single kidney, I guess SmileySmiley

     

    Thank you for the info Kreso Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    IMO to buy a brand new Ferrari someone must not just be affluent or rich but he must be a "money is no object" person. Because if someone is financially stretched to buy such a car he might as well forget it. So scrutinizing the cost of options in a Ferrari is not the correct way to approach ownership.

    That's why in the theoretical case that I liked Ferrari, I would never buy one new. Although I could afford a Ferrari if I wanted one badly, I am not in the category that it doesn't matter to me how much something costs.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

     Who cares about CF? I just exercise and drive with 1/3 tank rather than buy lightweight options.


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Kreso, I agree. The 458 combines super performance with everyday driving. However, if you are considering only sport car performance, then you must consider the GT3RS and the GT2RS.  


    --

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    Scans - Nürburgring-comparison Part 1

     Part 2


     

     Smiley

     


    Re: Autobild Sportscars edition Ring comparison

    nberry:

    Kreso, I agree. The 458 combines super performance with everyday driving. However, if you are considering only sport car performance, then you must consider the GT3RS and the GT2RS.  

     You might think I am nuts but a car like the GT2RS is the by far better daily driver than a 458. The RS is also faster and more fun... The Ferrari on the other hand has this special design and sound and a nice auto gear-box. Each will find it's buyers Smiley Different cars for different people Smiley


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    686497 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    320151 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 12/1/22 4:38 PM
    Enmanuel
    217295 1258
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 11/29/22 4:25 PM
    Leawood911
    202873 436
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    186150 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    129504 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/30/22 2:30 PM
    GnilM
    57362 68
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    521241 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    476723 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/27/22 2:46 AM
    WhoopsyM
    472810 3785
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    230252 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/2/22 6:41 AM
    WhoopsyM
    228538 1447
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    199929 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    196030 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 10/27/22 2:59 PM
    Leawood911
    190615 1863
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    190277 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    163498 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    160658 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    156836 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    143428 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    140308 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    138437 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    137679 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    136276 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 12/2/22 1:07 AM
    DJM48
    127184 1556
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    107322 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    106355 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    104064 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    79122 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31547 438
    177 items found, displaying 1 to 30.