Mar 4, 2005 4:23:16 PM
- Michael (ex. partyboy)
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Board: Other Sports Cars
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Mar 4, 2005 4:39:11 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Mar 4, 2005 4:56:18 PM
- Michael (ex. partyboy)
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Carlos, I'm from switzerland, and I know how to drive mountain passes. but I tested a 420 hp rs4 3 days ago, and I can tell you it's f...... fast.
On a higway no doubt, the rs4 is faster than a 996 320 hp or 300 hp. I drove all sort of porsches and I never had so much power on a straight line. Expect the turbo or the gt2 or gt3.
If I drive on mountain roads, and I will drive fast, it's not easy with the porsche, I know what I tell you, we compared lot of different porsches and also other cars like the lancer evo VI or VII. If you drive agressive you will have an advantage with 4-wheel drive because the surface is sometimes so bad, that you will have no traction with the rearwheeldrive models.
I'm sure the porsche is faster over all, but I wondered how fast an audi can be. from 100-200 I thought I was only 4 seconds or so ;-)
greets michael
On a higway no doubt, the rs4 is faster than a 996 320 hp or 300 hp. I drove all sort of porsches and I never had so much power on a straight line. Expect the turbo or the gt2 or gt3.
If I drive on mountain roads, and I will drive fast, it's not easy with the porsche, I know what I tell you, we compared lot of different porsches and also other cars like the lancer evo VI or VII. If you drive agressive you will have an advantage with 4-wheel drive because the surface is sometimes so bad, that you will have no traction with the rearwheeldrive models.
I'm sure the porsche is faster over all, but I wondered how fast an audi can be. from 100-200 I thought I was only 4 seconds or so ;-)
greets michael
Mar 4, 2005 5:07:38 PM
- Michael (ex. partyboy)
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Mar 4, 2005 5:41:00 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
In a straight-line no doubt, I agree, besides the Audi Turbo engines are easy to mod (no they are dropping the turbos for the atmospheric engines though) and extract plenty of HP, but thats precisely what I meant, fast in a straighline maybe, but thats not what Ferraris or Porsche are about, hence my sarcasm to the "feed me Porsches and Ferraris".
And specially not the nose heavy, understeering, overweight Audi "Quattro" station wagons. Torsen differentials is what the Hummer uses
very heavy and do not allow for varying torque split between front and rear so they behave like front wheel drive cars, i.e. grippy and safe in very slipery conditions but not very sporty in the curves so not used in any sportcars... but the Mitsu EVO's active differentials or even Porsche's viscous coupling AWD is another matter and indeed an advantage in mountain pases with rough surfaces, but specially the EVO is a monster in that terrain 
better than a 911 I dare to say, though the 911 is a more complete performer more complete package... highways, track, mountain, etc.
Anything can be made to go fast in a staright line, even SUV's these days, but its not very amusing, the fun is in the bends IMO. But in staright-line highways, the Audi's are a force to reckon with as you say, besides many of them are modded. Fortunately in the highways here there are a lot of curves and no real straights, best highways in the world IMO! Maybe I should put in my bike's licence plate, RS4's for breakfast and ENZO's for lunch if its just about staright-line accel 
And specially not the nose heavy, understeering, overweight Audi "Quattro" station wagons. Torsen differentials is what the Hummer uses
very heavy and do not allow for varying torque split between front and rear so they behave like front wheel drive cars, i.e. grippy and safe in very slipery conditions but not very sporty in the curves so not used in any sportcars... but the Mitsu EVO's active differentials or even Porsche's viscous coupling AWD is another matter and indeed an advantage in mountain pases with rough surfaces, but specially the EVO is a monster in that terrain better than a 911 I dare to say, though the 911 is a more complete performer more complete package... highways, track, mountain, etc.
Anything can be made to go fast in a staright line, even SUV's these days, but its not very amusing, the fun is in the bends IMO. But in staright-line highways, the Audi's are a force to reckon with as you say, besides many of them are modded. Fortunately in the highways here there are a lot of curves and no real straights, best highways in the world IMO!
Maybe I should put in my bike's licence plate, RS4's for breakfast and ENZO's for lunch if its just about staright-line accel
Mar 4, 2005 7:41:18 PM
- J.Seven
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Would you believe me if I say to you that a normal driver without knowlodge of sport driving( like most of sports car owners are) would be faster on that road with a RS4 than a Porsche or Ferrari?
Carlos, as you know I've a Porsche 996C2 Cab and I have driven a RS4 on mountain roads with lots of bumps and water crossing the road and let me say that I would have to put myself in danger with the Porsche to keep up with the RS4. Ofcourse in circuit or dry and good pavement the result would be different, but this state, is far better than most people think.
I just love the discret, yet charming and agressive look RS4 has.
J.Seven
Carlos, as you know I've a Porsche 996C2 Cab and I have driven a RS4 on mountain roads with lots of bumps and water crossing the road and let me say that I would have to put myself in danger with the Porsche to keep up with the RS4. Ofcourse in circuit or dry and good pavement the result would be different, but this state, is far better than most people think.
I just love the discret, yet charming and agressive look RS4 has.
J.Seven
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Bad conditions and speed are one thing, but why would you prefer the faster station wagon if the sports car is more entertaining to drive? The fun factor is what it's all about. If you find the station wagon more fun to drive on the typical mountain road, then maybe those kind of cars are for you afterall. 
Mar 4, 2005 7:53:04 PM
- J.Seven
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Michael (ex. partyboy) said:
I found a pic and thought about the comparison of a 360 a 996 and an rs4 (chip: 420hp)?
what do you think?
A 420Hp RS4 would smoke easily a 996 3.6L and be in pair with a 360 Modena (straight line acceleration).
Put a stage II (450Hp) and the modena would be smoked too.
Sportec 460Hp RS4 made 4,0sec to 100Kph and 14,1 to 200Kph , this is even faster than a 996 Turbo.
J.Seven
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Justin said:
Bad conditions and speed are one thing, but why would you prefer the faster station wagon if the sports car is more entertaining to drive? The fun factor is what it's all about. If you find the station wagon more fun to drive on the typical mountain road, then maybe those kind of cars are for you afterall.
Who said I prefer the RS4 to my 996
Who said the RS4 was more fun than the 996
Have you read my post
The feel is named Porsche
J.Seven
Mar 4, 2005 8:57:54 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
J.Seven said:
Would you believe me if I say to you that a normal driver without knowlodge of sport driving( like most of sports car owners are) would be faster on that road with a RS4 than a Porsche or Ferrari?
Actually I don!t agree since my opinion of a normal driver is not that bad, it would have to be a HORRIBLE driver to be faster on a RS4 than 911 down that mountain road (on normal conditions), just from the braking differnces alone would be enough advantage, such a driver would also be faster on a Cayenne or FWD Mini CooperS then so not of much value to me. I imagine some bike riders would be faster on a large cc 4T scooter down that road than a 1000cc sportbike but that doesn't say anything in favor of the scooter sportwise. If you want to be faster down that road then just learn how to drive half decently a sportcar, don't get a RS4 instead.
Quote:
Carlos, as you know I've a Porsche 996C2 Cab and I have driven a RS4 on mountain roads with lots of bumps and water crossing the road and let me say that I would have to put myself in danger with the Porsche to keep up with the RS4. Ofcourse in circuit or dry and good pavement the result would be different, but this state, is far better than most people think.
I just love the discret, yet charming and agressive look RS4 has.
Personally I just hate its weight, its numb steering from the 50% torque the front wheels share, its Audi chasis and brakes, and it nose heavy handling, etc. But that doens't really matter since its not a sportcar, its a sedan and in that sense I like its luggage room, its versatility, its power for effortless cruising and its AWD system for safety in slippery conditions. So its a good car for what its made for but a bad car for a sportcar.
The point I objected to in the thread was comparing it with Ferraris and Porsches and having them for breakfast, like it was another sportcar just because its fast on a straighline due to simply HP. Its just got more straight-line acceleration simply due to its HP, thats all, nothing to be proud of, put the same aftermarkit HP kit on the sportcar and see what it can do. Just because its fast on a staright line or a cluts can be faster in it than on a sportcar becasue sportcars require more skill to extract their potential doesn't qualify it to be compared to the sportcars. Its exactly like comparing a CayenneTT with 996 Carrera, same points acceleration and handlingwsie but apples and oranges.
Mar 4, 2005 11:39:49 PM
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Dr. Phil
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Carlos, I believe you're a bit off the mark here.
I dunno if you have ever driven the RS4 - maybe you have and just dont like it, which is fair enough. I think you're off the mark when you portray the RS4 as something a Porsche or Ferrari will eat for breakfast, or just out distance thru twisted roads.
A local magazine here once made a test of the 360 and the RS4 and quite as you said, the RS4 (standard) was faster than the 360 on the straights, and the 360 faster thru twists and turns.
But the gruelling conclusion (from a Ferrari-owners perspective) was the fact that the cars were pretty darn close throughout the test.
I will agree that I'd probably be having more FUN in a Porsche or Ferrari, but the RS4 is also great fun, and the monsterous torque alone brings out a smile. Floor it in 6th at 50kmh and see what happens
Like Ive said a dozen times before:
Making the most of cars like the ones we love in this forum and other great cars like the RS4 takes a very skilled driver.
I dunno how many of you guys have ever REALLY driven your cars to the absolute limit thru a forest, on twisty mountain roads or on a track, but I dont think I ever REALLY have with anyone of my cars.
I have always been too scared to kill myself of wreck the car to be honest.
I have for sure pushed the cars a LOT, but Im convinced a better driver than me could do a much better job - and hence drive a lot faster.
My point is this: This is an academic debate! Unless you let two professional drivers take the RS4 and a 360 or 997TT out on that mountain road, you will NEVER know which car i faster...and you may still not.
No matter who comes first in that test, someone will always come up with excuses/explanatons like the conditions weren't right, the 911 is lighter, the RS4 has Quattro, the Ferrari is too red..the sun was in my eyes etc etc etc.
(Remember the Donkervoort record on NB? Big hoo-haa about whether to acknowledge the fact that it whipped the CGT's a55)
The margins are very small, and tho the 360 or 911 have the edge on twisty roads, it would only take a miniscule mistake...and whoosh!..the Audi is riding off into the sunset. Nose-heavy, understeering and all.
Youre right, Carlos, that it's very much apples and oranges.
The RS4 is very different to a 360 or 911. No doubt. But they all reach the same goal, almost at the same time - but in very different ways.
Personally I wouldn't bet against the RS4 in a mountain shoot-out with the 360 or any similar specced car.
And speaking of brakes: Did you see the diameter on those RS4 Brembos?
If my life depended on my brakes, I'd take a Porsche anyday, but I would pick the RS4 without qualm too.
Having said all this, I'd rather drive the 360 or 911...but that's a totally diffferent story
I dunno if you have ever driven the RS4 - maybe you have and just dont like it, which is fair enough. I think you're off the mark when you portray the RS4 as something a Porsche or Ferrari will eat for breakfast, or just out distance thru twisted roads.
A local magazine here once made a test of the 360 and the RS4 and quite as you said, the RS4 (standard) was faster than the 360 on the straights, and the 360 faster thru twists and turns.
But the gruelling conclusion (from a Ferrari-owners perspective) was the fact that the cars were pretty darn close throughout the test.
I will agree that I'd probably be having more FUN in a Porsche or Ferrari, but the RS4 is also great fun, and the monsterous torque alone brings out a smile. Floor it in 6th at 50kmh and see what happens
Like Ive said a dozen times before:
Making the most of cars like the ones we love in this forum and other great cars like the RS4 takes a very skilled driver.
I dunno how many of you guys have ever REALLY driven your cars to the absolute limit thru a forest, on twisty mountain roads or on a track, but I dont think I ever REALLY have with anyone of my cars.
I have always been too scared to kill myself of wreck the car to be honest.
I have for sure pushed the cars a LOT, but Im convinced a better driver than me could do a much better job - and hence drive a lot faster.
My point is this: This is an academic debate! Unless you let two professional drivers take the RS4 and a 360 or 997TT out on that mountain road, you will NEVER know which car i faster...and you may still not.
No matter who comes first in that test, someone will always come up with excuses/explanatons like the conditions weren't right, the 911 is lighter, the RS4 has Quattro, the Ferrari is too red..the sun was in my eyes etc etc etc.
(Remember the Donkervoort record on NB? Big hoo-haa about whether to acknowledge the fact that it whipped the CGT's a55)
The margins are very small, and tho the 360 or 911 have the edge on twisty roads, it would only take a miniscule mistake...and whoosh!..the Audi is riding off into the sunset. Nose-heavy, understeering and all.
Youre right, Carlos, that it's very much apples and oranges.
The RS4 is very different to a 360 or 911. No doubt. But they all reach the same goal, almost at the same time - but in very different ways.
Personally I wouldn't bet against the RS4 in a mountain shoot-out with the 360 or any similar specced car.
And speaking of brakes: Did you see the diameter on those RS4 Brembos?
If my life depended on my brakes, I'd take a Porsche anyday, but I would pick the RS4 without qualm too.
Having said all this, I'd rather drive the 360 or 911...but that's a totally diffferent story
Mar 4, 2005 11:46:05 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
BTW speaking about Audi's J.Seven, I wanted to tell you, in case you didn't know already, watch out for this one:
Its a portuguese undercover cop car to catch speeders in the Lisbo-Oporto area you frequent
You may know these famous Imprezas already, they tape you speeding and then stop you:
And lastly the point of the recent placements of the fixed radars in the Lisbon-Oporto highway like the one on the pic:
"a.. Entre o km 0,5 e o km 10 em ambas as direcções - Alverca
b.. Entre o km 45 e o km 50 em ambas as direcções - Aveiras
c.. Entre o km 85 e o km 95 direcção Sul/Norte - Santarém
d.. Entre o km 120 e o km 130 em ambas as direcções - Pombal
e.. Entre o km 245 e o km 250 em ambas as direcções - Mealhada
f.. Entre o km 280 e o km 287 direcção Sul/Norte - São João da Madeira
g.. Entre o km 0,5 e o km 10 direcção Norte/Sul - Carvalhos Todos estes radares estão preparados para disparar a partir dos 140 km/h."
I thought I'd post it here for the other Portuguese members as well
Its a portuguese undercover cop car to catch speeders in the Lisbo-Oporto area you frequent
You may know these famous Imprezas already, they tape you speeding and then stop you:
And lastly the point of the recent placements of the fixed radars in the Lisbon-Oporto highway like the one on the pic:
"a.. Entre o km 0,5 e o km 10 em ambas as direcções - Alverca
b.. Entre o km 45 e o km 50 em ambas as direcções - Aveiras
c.. Entre o km 85 e o km 95 direcção Sul/Norte - Santarém
d.. Entre o km 120 e o km 130 em ambas as direcções - Pombal
e.. Entre o km 245 e o km 250 em ambas as direcções - Mealhada
f.. Entre o km 280 e o km 287 direcção Sul/Norte - São João da Madeira
g.. Entre o km 0,5 e o km 10 direcção Norte/Sul - Carvalhos Todos estes radares estão preparados para disparar a partir dos 140 km/h."
I thought I'd post it here for the other Portuguese members as well
Mar 5, 2005 12:14:36 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
A local magazine here once made a test of the 360 and the RS4 and quite as you said, the RS4 (standard) was faster than the 360 on the straights, and the 360 faster thru twists and turns.
But the gruelling conclusion (from a Ferrari-owners perspective) was the fact that the cars were pretty darn close throughout the test.
Thats exactly what I said, the Audi is faster in the straights simply due to HP and the sportcar is faster round the bends. Now, drop a blower on the sportcar and the sportcar will now be faster in the bends and in a straight line, however the opposite is not true, there is nothing you can do to a RS4 that will make it faster around the bends.
And point #2, they may be somewhat close in A top B but the way each one does the journey is completely different, one is fun, exiting and involving, the other... pratical, safe and filtered.
So were is the point in comparing them? then we can bring in the lighter RWD better steering BMW ///M equivalents and they will beat the Audi's performance, and so on. Thats why I just jumped at the statement of a station wagon having for breakfast real sportcars just because is has more HP than some of them. You can't have a practical, safe, easy-to-drive fast, and powerful/fast station wagon AND be "better or equal" to the sportcars in sport-driving characteristics too
Mar 5, 2005 7:53:08 AM
- temm
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
And specially not the nose heavy, understeering, overweight Audi "Quattro" station wagons. Torsen differentials is what the Hummer uses
The new RS4 features the new Torsen C differential which is able to vary the split between the axles. Combine that with the new high-reving non-turbocharged V8 with a flat torque curve and I think Audi has come up with a car that can surprise quite a few sports cars out there, whether the road is straight or not
:Now, the RS 4 features a new generation of quattro drive with asymmetric/dynamic distribution of engine power and torque.
The Torsen power divider delivers the output and torque of the engine individually to the front and rear axle as required, thus ensuring optimum traction at all times: reflecting even minor changes in road conditions, the flow of power is re-directed immediately as a function of torque, with up to 100 per cent of engine power and torque going to just one axle whenever appropriate. This new distribution of drive power makes the Audi RS 4 an even more dynamic performer on the road. Apart from traction, ease of control, stability, load change and transient behaviour, the car's agility and steering behaviour in particular have been significantly improved once again, clearly underlining the very sporty performance and character of the RS 4.
Clear facts and figures prove the impressive potential of this outstanding eight-cylinder: maximum output of the 4.2-litre power unit is 420 bhp. Peak torque is 430 Newton-metres at 5500 rpm. And no less than 90 per cent of this maximum torque is maintained consistently throughout a wide range of engine speed from 2250 all the way to 7600 rpm. Performance on the road is naturally equally impressive, the RS 4 accelerating to 100 km/h in 4.8 seconds and reaching 200 km/h in 16.6 seconds.
Mar 5, 2005 10:28:04 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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Mar 5, 2005 8:31:23 PM
- Ferdie
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
[...And point #2, they may be somewhat close in A top B but the way each one does the journey is completely different, one is fun, exiting and involving, the other... pratical, safe and filtered.
...
I'd say this sums it up pretty much. I am definately in favour for Audis (just read Piech's auto.biography in the recent days) and have huge respect for their technological achievements but in driver involvement and steering feel they are definately miles away from Porsche and Ferrari!
The Quattro GmbH offered a revised suspension for the RS4 to solve its rather lazy handling characteristics - especially compared to their main rival M3!
There is just one thing where I differ from Carlos: Audi's quattro system is not inherently causing understeer. In fact any 4WD comparisons, ranging from the A4 up to the A8 made very good comments about the neutral handling (the A8 having a surprisingly neutral balance).
The major problem on Audi's cars is the engine being placed far too much at front, causing the above mentioned understeer especially at quick and heavy turn-in.
I am just as curious about the new RS4!
Mar 5, 2005 9:10:29 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Ferdie said: Audi's quattro system is not inherently causing understeer. In fact any 4WD comparisons, ranging from the A4 up to the A8 made very good comments about the neutral handling (the A8 having a surprisingly neutral balance).
The major problem on Audi's cars is the engine being placed far too much at front, causing the above mentioned understeer especially at quick and heavy turn-in.
IMO its a combination of the two factors. One is the weight up front they have, they don't even attain a 50-50 weight distribution let alone a rear weight bias like sportcars do, these Audi's have a 60%-40% weight distribution and that puts all the weight on its nose like a truck.
But their Torsen AWD also causes inherent understeer which adds to the above. The Torsen AWD is a 50-50 fixed split torque system, therefore the front wheels always get 50% of the torque no matter what. So in the curves the front wheels have to share the available traction for the steering with the torque, so in a normal cars the front wheels only have to worry about steering and use all the available traction for steering, but in the Torsen the front wheels also get 50% of the torque so there is less traction available for both and the front wheels are much more likely to slip first causing understeer.
In sportcar AWD systems the torque is primarily sent to the rear wheels so they handle like RWD's and only when they slip then the torque is sent to the front and always to a lesser degree than the rears. This way the car is more dinamic, stereing sensitivety and input is better, and understeer tendency is reduced. Thats why the new RS4 AWD will be of this variable torque type. The advantage of the Torsen is that its very quick to act to slip, its inmediate so grip is very good in slippery conditions, thats why the Hummer uses such a system, the drawbacks is that its a very heavy system (which contributes to the overweight of the Audi RS4/RS6 models) and since torque is fixed 50-50 its not very sporty in its handling.
Lets see how the new RS4's AWD system gets around this exactly and this new Torsen type diferential, should be interesting, variable torque AWD and atmospheric V8 instead of the Turbocharged engines and fixed 50-50 AWD should be quite an improvement
Mar 6, 2005 1:42:12 AM
- DKNY604
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Mar 6, 2005 2:52:27 PM
- Ferdie
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Carlos from Spain
Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
...Lets see how the new RS4's AWD system gets around this exactly and this new Torsen type diferential, should be interesting, variable torque AWD and atmospheric V8 instead of the Turbocharged engines and fixed 50-50 AWD should be quite an improvement
Indeed. The AWD system definately plays a role in Audi's handling characteristics but I'd say it's more the weight bias, which becomes worse and worse the bigger the engine. Also bear in mind that all tires on the Audi's are of equal size, opposed to the ones on other sportscars or sports limousines. The major downside, in my eyes, on those cars is the lower connection between driver and car. But well, all can be improved.
By the way, those police officers in Portugal are hilarious. Great to see those vehicles as police cars...
After driving in Portugal for two weeks I definately know that they are worth it - but, do they have the same system on motorbikes as well?
Mar 6, 2005 5:18:11 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: rs4 faster than a 911 or 360?
I don't believe they have the same system on their bikes but you never know
Here are a few more clever "solutions" there
- Here is a fixed radar camo car in front of a gas station, the reason is because gas stations (at least here) emit K-band false signals in detectors so when you go by and the radar detector always goes off and you tend to ignore it thinking "there is the annoying gas station false signal" by placing a K-band radar they will be hidden by the gas station influence and catch you inspite of the radar detector.
Here is the system they use in those cars mentined above, the record your speed and tape you (sometimes invite you to race with them since they are camouflaged) and then stop you and show your infractions in the little screen:
And lastly here is a system that is gaining popularity here in Spain now, the Autovelox. Its consists of two paralel laser beams that are placed perpendicular to the road, when the car crosses them it calculates the speed and tells the camera to take a picture of the car, it can control several lanes of traffic and its undetectable by any means. Its laser based so radar detectors cannot detect it and since its perpendicular laser detectors will not pick it up nor the laser jammers jam it. Can be hidden inside a car with the beams coming out the side window, or in a tripod, or in a fixed metal box. Can work night and day. Very clever.
Recent pick north of were I live:
Here are a few more clever "solutions" there
- Here is a fixed radar camo car in front of a gas station, the reason is because gas stations (at least here) emit K-band false signals in detectors so when you go by and the radar detector always goes off and you tend to ignore it thinking "there is the annoying gas station false signal"
by placing a K-band radar they will be hidden by the gas station influence and catch you inspite of the radar detector.
Here is the system they use in those cars mentined above, the record your speed and tape you (sometimes invite you to race with them since they are camouflaged) and then stop you and show your infractions in the little screen:
And lastly here is a system that is gaining popularity here in Spain now, the Autovelox. Its consists of two paralel laser beams that are placed perpendicular to the road, when the car crosses them it calculates the speed and tells the camera to take a picture of the car, it can control several lanes of traffic and its undetectable by any means. Its laser based so radar detectors cannot detect it and since its perpendicular laser detectors will not pick it up nor the laser jammers jam it. Can be hidden inside a car with the beams coming out the side window, or in a tripod, or in a fixed metal box. Can work night and day. Very clever.
Recent pick north of were I live:
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