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    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Three reasons I didn't and wouldn't go for the GTR:

    1. Its FUGLY

    2. Cheap Material

    3. Doesn't offer manual transmission.

    But if someone tells me that the GTR is not a performer, then he/she is delusional.

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    fritz:
    Jean:

    I see the weight of GT-R complained quite often.

    However, according to Mizuno san the weight figure was part of the whole packaging from the very beginning of GT-R's design.

    He explains "based on his experience with the relationship between the down force weight and tire patch grip of Group C race cars, the weight of GT-R has been predetermined to achieve optimal tire patch grip in a road car.  The light weight packaging simply could not provide enough grip without using softer tire compounds.  To achieve the maximum grip in all situation with NORMAL road tires, the GT-R's optimal weight for its tire compound has been determined without increasing the downforce that involved enormous drag coefficient."

    First, I thought what a bullocks he's talking about, but the more I think about it, it makes more sense in a road car with road tires.  It's no wonder this car is so quick when it corners.

    I suspect that your first thought was right, and that Mizuno-san was indeed talking a load of young male cattle. Smiley

    If tyres cannot build up enough grip because there is not enough weight on a given tyre patch, that is, the pressure (force[weight] per unit area) on that patch is too low, then the answer is surely to reduce the area of the tyre patch, not to increase the vehicle weight.  Apart from instances of ballast being used to alleviate problems resulting from poor suspension geometry or weight distribution, this is the first instance I remember hearing of where the weight of a car has been increased to improve its dynamic performance. Smiley

    Hi Fritz,

    In the world of physics, I think you are correct.  

    But, how about standing start for 3 sec run with over 500hp or high-speed cornering?  Wouldn't the reduced tire patch negatively affect this?

    Perhaps for a road tire that has to last certain mileage (hard compound), maybe there is an optimal weight that maximizes the potential of the tire friction value of this 4WD machine?


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Jean:

    Hi Fritz,

    In the world of physics, I think you are correct.  

    But, how about standing start for 3 sec run with over 500hp or high-speed cornering?  Wouldn't the reduced tire patch negatively affect this?

    A dragster has huge rear tyres and all its weight over them to maximise traction for acceleration, but would be lousy at the Nürburgring, which is what the GT-R was optimised for. Cornering ability, on the other hand, deteriorates in direct relationship to weight increases. 
    Tyre dimensions are normally increased to cope with higher weights when cars start putting on the pounds due to added equipment. I'd never heard of weights being increased to match a given tyre.

    Perhaps for a road tire that has to last certain mileage (hard compound), maybe there is an optimal weight that maximizes the potential of the tire friction value of this 4WD machine?

    I'd find it hard to believe that achieving a certain tyre mileage was one of the primary objectives during the development of the GT-R, which then resulted in the weight of the car being increased. Increased weight also negatively affects tyre life. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    The GT-R is heavy because of cost. Period. If the developer claims something different, even if it would make sense up to a certain point (although, not really), he is lying. 

    What do you expect Mizuno to say ? 

    Nissan is a car manufacturer like any other or actually, not like any other because they don't have the technology and experience on building pure sports cars like Porsche for example. So everything they do is some sort of compromise and if it isn't, they don't really make money with it, no matter what they claim.

    Some car manufacturers sometimes sell certain top models without making a dime, just for prestige and reputation. Sometimes they even loose money on certain models. I don't say it is the case with the GT-R but I also doubt that they make a fortune with this car. Nothing is for free and every piece of technology Nissan has to buy from third parties, not even mentioning development cost, costs them a lot.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    RC:

    The GT-R is heavy because of cost. Period. If the developer claims something different, even if it would make sense up to a certain point (although, not really), he is lying. 

    What do you expect Mizuno to say ? 

    Nissan is a car manufacturer like any other or actually, not like any other because they don't have the technology and experience on building pure sports cars like Porsche for example. So everything they do is some sort of compromise and if it isn't, they don't really make money with it, no matter what they claim.

    Some car manufacturers sometimes sell certain top models without making a dime, just for prestige and reputation. Sometimes they even loose money on certain models. I don't say it is the case with the GT-R but I also doubt that they make a fortune with this car. Nothing is for free and every piece of technology Nissan has to buy from third parties, not even mentioning development cost, costs them a lot.

    You are bang on about the cost. I believe the profit margin for Nissan with GT-R is very narrow. But what I think is that they are really not trying to sell this car as their main business. The GR-R is a way of promoting the Nissan and Infiniti brand, and it is pretty smart and cheap way of promoting their brand.


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    GT-R's weight discussed by Mizuno

    "Thinking that my car is too heavy is a mistake!" he says, clapping his hands together for emphasis. "All journalists say [affects a funny voice]: ‘GT-R is heavy, heavy, heavy - it should be lighter, lighter, lighter!' I say, journalists need to develop a more professional level of thinking! More study! More thought! The GT-R needs to be this weight. A car with less weight does not handle. Lighter weight can be dangerous. And it will not be drivable by all customers. You have a responsibility for the customer. I have a bigresponsibility for the customer!"

    "All people have the right to enjoy a supercar and supercar performance," he says, firmly laying out his MO. "All people, anywhere, anytime. Before, the supercar was a very closed market. I wanted to open the market up. Big boot. Accessible performance. You can drive my car at 186mph with your wife. Before GT-R, it was a dream. After GT-R, the dream was real."

    "So, how do you make a car? I can show you a very easy example. Imagine a high-speed corner in an F1 car, and it is using the best tyres in the world. An F1 car weighs 560kg, more than 600kg with the driver. How much downforce does an F1 car generate? Currently, it is around 1,300kg. So what is the total weight? 1,860kg [about the same as a GT-R with the driver on board, coincidentally]. A GT1 racing car weighs between 1,200 and 1,300kg. Plus downforce of 600kg, the actual weight on the car is 1,800kg... you see, very easy!"

    Read the full story here:

    http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/kazutoshi-mizuno-nissan-gtr-interview-top-gear-2012-02-23


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Well...as long as people believe everything he says... 

    Lowering weight by 200 kg would have made the GT-R way too expensive, this is the fact that he should have told people. I also think that Nissan doesn't really make much money on the GT-R but it is a product which helped a lot boosting their image, especially with younger people.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    wow, just wow! what a load of... b u l l s h i t! 

     

    GT-R's weight discussed by Mizuno

    "Thinking that my car is too heavy is a mistake!" he says, clapping his hands together for emphasis. "All journalists say [affects a funny voice]: ‘GT-R is heavy, heavy, heavy - it should be lighter, lighter, lighter!' I say, journalists need to develop a more professional level of thinking! More study! More thought! The GT-R needs to be this weight. A car with less weight does not handle.

    eek.gif Heavier = better handling?  pound.gif

    "So, how do you make a car? I can show you a very easy example. Imagine a high-speed corner in an F1 car, and it is using the best tyres in the world. An F1 car weighs 560kg, more than 600kg with the driver. How much downforce does an F1 car generate? Currently, it is around 1,300kg. So what is the total weight? 1,860kg [about the same as a GT-R with the driver on board, coincidentally]. A GT1 racing car weighs between 1,200 and 1,300kg. Plus downforce of 600kg, the actual weight on the car is 1,800kg... you see, very easy!"

    Mizuno must think car buyers are plain stupid and cannot tell the difference in the outright lies he is selling. Newton is turning in his grave. There is a huge difference between weight from downforce and weight from vehicle mass, both put weight on the wheels, but as soon as you take a turn (i.e. when you need that grip) the first does not affect the centrifugal force as it only works downward, and the second (weight from mass) works in every direction and in the corner it acts to push the car outwards againt the turn! One is good weight for handling and grip and the other is bad for handling and grip. Not to mention the brakes and power-to-weight ration those F1 and GT1 cars have to deal with those downforce levels they use as opposed to street car were those levels of downforce are not even close to aplicable.

    I have lost all respect for Mizuno, if he says such things because he knew no better then he would have a pass, but he is an engineer, so he is lying deliberately...

    The car is that heavy because its too expensive to make it lighter as RC said, you get what you pay for.


    --


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    very funny indeed - so the more weight u have on each wheel the better the handling ? and since a F1 is weighing 600 kgs and puts downforce of 1300 kgs - it's identical to the GTR.......aha..... - there goes his reputation....enlightened


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    BjoernB:

    very funny indeed - so the more weight u have on each wheel the better the handling ? and since a F1 is weighing 600 kgs and puts downforce of 1300 kgs - it's identical to the GTR.......aha..... - there goes his reputation....enlightened

    its a good thing that F1 cars have a mandatory weight limitation otherwise they would ditch all the windtunnels and expensive aerodinamic development and just load them up with 700 kg worth of sand bags for the same result Smiley


    --


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    "A car with less weight does not handle. " ??? Memo to Colin Chapman: Add heaviness!

    "You can drive my car at 186mph with your wife. " Really? I would love to meet his wife!

     


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    I'm surprised Nissan lets this guy talk to the press at all if that is typical for the stuff he is liable to come out with.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    I mailed this statement to a friend who is a F1 experienced engineer. My English isn’t good enough to translate his short answer: “Geile Märchenstunde ”, something like “cool fairy tale” and a smiley similar to this one: Smiley


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    The videos of these interview have been around for a while already. I have watched them back and forth at their release date. From what I understand of his explanation, the relationship between tire dimension, brake and engine performance and weight is at its maximum at the GT-R´s spec data. The F1 analogy describes that, being taken away its aerodynamic downforce, would handle very well despite its low weight. If I understand him correctly, he also refers to light cars as being twitchy and more agile than the average customer would be able to handle.

    I do not discredit his theory itself but the fact that with lower weight comes a variety of advantages, such as less stress and wear on the components, that does become a factor if one uses the car as described. The fact that the GT-R´s reliability does not match its remaining credentials is proof for that.

    Anyway, see for yourself:


     

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Correct me if I am wrong. When discussing vehicle handling, isn't there a relationship between weight and hp? To categorically say that less weight is better for car handling may not always be true especially if there is disproportionate amount of hp.


    --

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    nberry:

    Correct me if I am wrong. When discussing vehicle handling, isn't there a relationship between weight and hp? To categorically say that less weight is better for car handling may not always be true especially if there is disproportionate amount of hp.

     

    I think I know what you are reffering to; if the power-to-weight ratio is very high, then the car may be harder to drive due to the power delivery overwhealming the car's grip more easily. But that doesn't mean it handles worse, just that its throttle needs to be applyied accordingly, just like underpowering the engine of a car does not make the car handle better, just easier to drive fast by lowering its potential performance limit.

    By increasing the mass of the you will not make that lightweight vehicle corner faster, on the contrary you will make it corner slower, independantly of the power output. However increasing downforce weight will make the car corner faster because it puts more weight on the wheels without also increasing its inercia that would make the car resist wanting to turn even more. That is why race cars try to shave as much weight as posible while trying to maximise downforce to a balance between the positive effects of downforce and the negative effects fo drag. Mizuno is deliberately trying to decieve the readers by implying that they are the same type of weight and adding them up together and putting them in the same bag to excuse the exaggerated 1800kg mass weight figure of the GT-R.


    --


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Correct.kiss To have too light of a car with a high power to weight ratio only makes the car unstable. Even if you use the throttle judiciously, it will remain somewhat unmanageable. 

     


    --

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Yes Nick, that is what I assume he was referring to. There is not only a relationship of power and weight but also of tire dimension and weight. It shouldn´t be a surprise that SUVs such as the X5 or Cayenne have astonishing handling despite their weight. Nonetheless all of this becomes relevant when you attack more than one or two corners... or have an unlimited amount of wear-and-tear items to your disposal.

    My bad, the above sentence was of course meant to say:

     

    Ferdie:

    The F1 analogy describes that, being taken away its aerodynamic downforce, would handle very bad despite its low weight. I

     

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    nberry:

    Correct.kiss To have too light of a car with a high power to weight ratio only makes the car unstable. Even if you use the throttle judiciously, it will remain somewhat unmanageable. 

    Right but if the power-to-weight ratio was hypothetically too much for the potential customer base of the car (not likely to happen in a modern streetcar), the correct solution would be to decrease the power or offer different power settings, not increase the mass of the car to compensate needlessly and its added negative handling drawbacks that would acompany that.

    Also ironically, in the interview, Mizuno talks about the other job of a car is "ecology, for a better future", and yet adding weight to a car is opposed to ecology because it wastes more fuel to do the same amount of work.


    --


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    What this fine gentleman conviniently forgot to mention is that downforce in lithesome racing cars is applied only vertically, whereas mass (i.e. weight, as we are on Earth) has an impact on the lateral and longitudinal axes too! Inertia is detrimental on performance and handling Mizuno-san! This is an offence payable with harakiri! 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    nberry:

    Correct.kiss To have too light of a car with a high power to weight ratio only makes the car unstable. Even if you use the throttle judiciously, it will remain somewhat unmanageable. 

     

    Mizuno got something right because the cars performance speaks for itself. But I disagree that its a "supercar" it doesnt sound good, the styling looks many classes lower than its performance and sitting in the inside there is nothing special about it at all. Its $100k of speed parts in a $30K car.

     

    Nick,  Mizuno is a engineering dinosaur. Think Pontiac and their old slogan of "road hugging weight"Smiley


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Light is right for sure, especially for long track days but cars like the 997 Turbo S or the GTR have shown us that with the right engineering, heavy cars can display exceptional performances!

    Frankly, I don't love the GTR but numbers speak for themselves, 0 to 100 in 2.8 secs, Nurburgring in something like 7min30, I mean, what a car!!!

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    JimFlat6:

    Mizuno got something right because the cars performance speaks for itself. 

     

    This is the same problem I had.

    What he says in theory, I cannot understand based on what I've learned in physics.

    However, the real world performance of his product outperforms other lighter sports cars in terms of acceleration, braking, and handling.  Or did he just find a golden balance between vehicle weight, power and tire grip?


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Drive one if you can. The roll center feels very low, the center of gravity is low, frontward and rearward polar inertia feel very well controlled, it has no diagonal yawing like 911's and its devastatingy fast. But its also seems too appliance like if you know what I mean. It has no charachter unless you are way into Need For Speed type video games.

    Consider that its V6 makes its power VERY quickly and it Revs very quickly and that it is the first car with total systems integration of traction sensors, real time control of differentials, power chosen and then sent to each wheel etc..Its all stuff that couldnt be done on a analog car, so analog automotive physics rules just dont apply. The next generation Porsche Turbo will probably make the GT-R seem crude and slow.


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    Jean:
    JimFlat6:

    Mizuno got something right because the cars performance speaks for itself. 

     

    This is the same problem I had.

    What he says in theory, I cannot understand based on what I've learned in physics.

    However, the real world performance of his product outperforms other lighter sports cars in terms of acceleration, braking, and handling.  Or did he just find a golden balance between vehicle weight, power and tire grip?

    That's exactly what I meant Jean. For example, on paper a 458 should be a much faster car, but it's not.

    A GTR is faster than a GT3RS round the Nurburgring, waoh.

     


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    And I can confirm that in a wet Nurburgring , with comparable drivers ( me in my C2S, a friend in his GTR ) , I got totally wiped out . And not by a little, but by miles surprise   

    As I had to be careful to try to keep my car on the track , or got too scared because of the 911dynamics on a wet spiller track, my friend just seemed to be able to go full speed  and not have any problems to control his ( or loose ) his car no


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    I wonder how much in front the Nissan would have been if you were in a Turbo or Turbo S .

    Has anyone tried that?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    On a wet track, like it was, the GTR would of probably be much quicker also, as the electronic helps make the car very confidence inspiring vs the Turbo would still be more difficult to manage on the wet track, even with it's AWD


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    I think Nissan took a different approach on the ESP/AWD systems setup compared to the competition. While in other cars, the ESP/AWD systems are supposed to help in certain driving conditions but not fully control them, the setup on the GT-R is completely different, actually controlling the situation. I remember the setup of the AWD system in the 996 compared to my 997, two completely different setups and I have to admit that while the 997 Turbo was more fun to drive because of the RWD behaviour, the 996 Turbo, even tuned to over 560 hp, was easier to drive fast. The AWD setup was much more focused on traction and supporting the driver than on anything else.

    I truly think that it is possible for Porsche to build a 991 Turbo which follows exactly these guidelines but I'm also afraid that many pro drivers could complaint that the car would be too neutral, too easy to drive fast and too forgiving. To be honest, only god knows why people would make such crappy claims because to be honest, I want to be fast, no matter what the tool(s) to achieve that. indecision

    Nissan built the perfect Playstation real life racer, believe it or not. You just accelerate and leave everything else to the electronics setup. Of course this isn't a car which would forgive beginner's errors but in the right hands, it doesn't even have to be a pro, the GT-R is surely fast as hell. Good job, Nissan but this doesn't mean that the GT-R shouldn't be lighter.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Truth about Nissan GTR's Power output

    RC:

    I think Nissan took a different approach on the ESP/AWD systems setup compared to the competition. While in other cars, the ESP/AWD systems are supposed to help in certain driving conditions but not fully control them, the setup on the GT-R is completely different, actually controlling the situation. I remember the setup of the AWD system in the 996 compared to my 997, two completely different setups and I have to admit that while the 997 Turbo was more fun to drive because of the RWD behaviour, the 996 Turbo, even tuned to over 560 hp, was easier to drive fast. The AWD setup was much more focused on traction and supporting the driver than on anything else.

    I truly think that it is possible for Porsche to build a 991 Turbo which follows exactly these guidelines but I'm also afraid that many pro drivers could complaint that the car would be too neutral, too easy to drive fast and too forgiving. To be honest, only god knows why people would make such crappy claims because to be honest, I want to be fast, no matter what the tool(s) to achieve that. indecision

    Nissan built the perfect Playstation real life racer, believe it or not. You just accelerate and leave everything else to the electronics setup. Of course this isn't a car which would forgive beginner's errors but in the right hands, it doesn't even have to be a pro, the GT-R is surely fast as hell. Good job, Nissan but this doesn't mean that the GT-R shouldn't be lighter.


    Good explanation.

    Perhaps, Porsche could do something similar to the GT-R on the 991 Turbo and offer an optional  "Pro Package" for the expert or risky drivers, with different electronics and set-up.


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
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