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    PCCB on New GT3

    My order for the 2004 GT3 has recently been amended to add PCCB as an option. I plan to use my GT3 for club racing (as well as for the street) and my plan is to strip down the car even more to make it essentially a street-legal Cup car. It should not be difficult to reduce the weight of the car to say 2500 pounds. Does anyone know whether I will need different brake pads for racing (I do not mind swapping pads between street/race applications)? If so, which brand should I use?

    If I lighten the car even more for racing, I hope to increase the longevity of the PCCB? I hope my choice of PCCB was not a mistake (i.e. see RC's recent comments on black GT2).

    By the way, does anyone have any pictures of the rumoured GT-3RS for the street (not for North America)?

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    Peter,

    There are no aftermarket or race pads that I know of for PCCB. None of the GT3 Cup or GT3RS teams use PCCB, either because of cost or regulations. The only pads are the Porsche OEM.

    As far as lightening the car for club racing, read the rules first and check with the PCA tech committee. All cars running in the stock classes (the 99 GT3 was in C Stock) have to meet a minimum weight, which is set by the committee to be pretty close to the lowest available stock weight from the factory. If you go below this you'll will be bumped into the next class (B), where you'll have to run against 996TT and GT2s.

    Karl

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    Peter, the new GT3 already has a "second generation" PCCB, there have been some improvements.
    The black GT2 I saw at Werk 1 had one of the first PCCB systems installed.

    PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Anyone even considering ever tracking a car with PCCB's had best read Porsche's own web page on the topic:

    GT3 PCCB

    Porsche has toned down their claims considerably from those originally made for the GT2 but still they state:

    Quote:
    Another key benefit of the PCCB system is the remarkable durability of both pads and discs. While the actual rate of wear on all brake compo- nents - particularly pads and discs - is entirely dependent on individual driving style and, of course, vehicle usage, like-for-like testing reveals a much longer lifespan compared with conventional systems.



    Well, you can all imagine what I think of thier "like-for-like" claims. It wasn't true for Ulf either who got 26 Nurburgring laps out of a set of P90 pads. Are the P50 pads going to be so much better?

    But the real kicker for those wishing to track is the last paragraph:

    Quote:
    With its major weight savings and exceptional fade resistance, even at very high temperatures, PCCB is the ideal option for genuine competition use. It is important to note, however, that circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important - as with conventional steel high-performance brakes - to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event.



    So the system is ideal for those tracking their car ... so long as they're willing to replace the entire system after every track event.

    And guess what the response is going to be to a warranty claim.

    Happy motoring!

    Stephen

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Couldn't have said it better, Stephen.

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Your comments as well as those of fellow colleagues, i.e. Karl and RC, are appreciated and noted. It appears that my car will be the "test mule" as far as the longevity of the new PCCB are concerned for track use. I have been club racing with the PCA in North America for about 10 years and know that my new GT3 (after further modifications) will compete in the GT-2 category (I have not decided whether to go with slicks or DOT tires yet). A lightened new GT3 with some modifications (to extract a few more horses) should be competitive in the GT-2 category provided that a good driver does not show up with a well-prepared GT3R (the real race car).

    Although some people may think that it is crazy to modify a brand new GT3, my personal opinion is that the offerred version is still "too fat". Moreover, I like the idea of racing my GT3 one weekend, change a few suspension settings (easier to do with say Moton shocks as opposed to the factory shocks) or swap springs and be able to drive the car around town until the next race weekend.

    I am a big fan of light cars as my previous 911 race car was based on a 1970 chassis and weighed only 2000 lbs. Even though the car had only 280 hp (ran in the GT-4 group), my car was faster and could out-brake many other cars in either the GT-2 or GT-3 groups. My brakes were the original "red" brakes from the 3.6 turbo and did not require any change/repairs for 7 or 8 race seasons (each season having 4 to 6 race weekends).

    I am hoping to achieve the same level of reliability and performance in racing with the PCCB. I wonder whether a big factor for the drivers having problems with their PCCB is that they are driving consistently on tracks with really long straights ending with heavy braking areas (i.e. threshold braking from 180 plus mph to say 45 mph in a 3000 plus pound car on every lap would be, I suspect, tough on any braking system, i.e. steel or otherwise). Most tracks that I have raced on in North America, i.e. Portland, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Las Vegas, Mid-Ohio, Road America, etc. typically do not achieve very high terminal speeds with proper gearing (i.e. maybe could hit 165 to 170 mph at Road America with a GT3 Cup car?) at the end of their longest straightaways or require prolonged periods of heavy braking at the end of such straights.

    I suppose that we could speculate for quite some time about the longevity of the PCCB on the track. Now that my new GT3 will have them, I hope that I will not be committing economic insanity.

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Well guys,

    i'll let the pics speak for themselves. Additional facts: CUP-linings installed on PORSCHE advise, max. 1000 km total lifetime, approx. 250 -300 km on the race track

    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VL-1.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VL-2.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VR-1.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VR-2.jpg[/image]

    Cheers



    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Seem's it does not work to include all pics. If anyone want to have all of them, please send me an e-mail.

    Regards

    Quote:
    Well guys,

    i'll let the pics speak for themselves. Additional facts: CUP-linings installed on PORSCHE advise, max. 1000 km total lifetime, approx. 250 -300 km on the race track

    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VL-1.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VL-2.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VR-1.jpg[/image]
    [image]ftp://p34826367@ftp.az1.li/GT2 brake/VR-2.jpg[/image]

    Cheers





    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Thanks, Chris.

    If you want me to post all pics, send them to rc@rennteam.com . I'll upload them to our server and there shouldn't be a problem anymore.

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Thanks for the pictures Chris (although not all of them came through on your posting). Were these PCCB from your GT2 (is it stock weight?)? If so, are these PCCB from the so-called first version or supposedly improved second version?

    It appears from the one picture of the front brakes that the brake pad is destroyed with some wear on the brake rotor. It is unclear from the one photo of the front brake as to whether the pads were working evenly on the rotor. What was the assessment of the situation, i.e. worn pads, damaged rotors or both? What caused the damage, i.e. overheating (if so, how fast were you going and does the GT2 have any brake cooling system?)

    It seems from your message that this happened after 250 to 300 km of track use. Is this correct?

    What do you mean by CUP-linings, i.e. brake pads from the GT3 Cup Car? If so, it appears strange that you could use a pad from a steel rotor system for the PCCB.

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    I just read the new Road and Track. It had a test on the enzo. The guy who owns the car had to replace the pads and rotors afgter he tracked the car... $6000 for the pads and $23,000 for the rotors....

    Re: PCCB on the track is economic insanity

    Quote:
    I just read the new Road and Track. It had a test on the enzo. The guy who owns the car had to replace the pads and rotors afgter he tracked the car... $6000 for the pads and $23,000 for the rotors....



    You'll be suprised how much you have to pay for the PCCB pads and discs. No fun at all.

    Re: PCCB great in the canyons

    sad they don't hold up on the track, but under heavy, repeated down mountain use, i've no problems in 7000 miles of gt2 usage and ordered pccb for my gt3.

    the unsprung weight savings is why i like them. and my pcna guy will replace mine if i have issues..

    the only porsche brake problems i have ever had was a 91 c2 where i'd get to the bottom of the mountain with smoke pouring out of the front wheel wells every day and warped rotors, but porsche replaced them twice.
    they stand behind street failures, but i guess i can see why you would change to steel for the track, and why they can't cover track failures on a street car.

    Re: PCCB great in the canyons

    I've been on vacation for the last couple weeks, hence no follow-up. More on that elsewhere.

    First, I don't believe there are any 2nd generation rotors yet. They're talking about them which I guess helps sell the GT3 but what you see is what you get. Maybe on later produced GT3's?

    Neither is the P50 pad available yet that they are talking about.

    No one has commented on the uneven wear of the pads. I had exactly the same thing. It was the reason that they replaced on set of callipers. My guess is that the pads are cooling unevenly and this is causing the uneven wear rate.

    On the rotors, everyone is assuming that the damage was due to the pad failure. But that could have as easily been caused by ABS damage. I believe that was the cause of the failure of my first set or ceramic rotors (a problem that is not solved by the second generation imporoved cooling rotors).

    My trip was 6000 km to Sicily and back. Once overheated the P90 pads became useless. They squealed worse than cold race pads under all conditions. They were so loud that in cities we had to close the windows because of the noise. My wife complained frequently. I personally don't mind brake squeal but even I thought that they were loud. The pads were trash as soon as they were overheated. Now after 6000 km of holiday travel they are also completely worn away.

    The worst that I did to the pads was on a narrow French D road through the Alps. It was very slow and so narrow that i had to use the horn at corners. By the end of it the pads were smelling very nasty. This was not track and it was not high speed at all and I was not being anywhere near as aggressive as I could have been.

    And to add to my earlier post, now PCNA is quoting a track life of only 1500 miles for the rotors:

    http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004446#000000

    Can someone please explain to me again why ceramic rotors are such a good idea?

    Stephen

    Re: PCCB great in the canyons

    PCCB is a cost option on a GT3 and is supposed to offer better performance. It doesn't matter if it is a street car. Performance in Porsches has always been derived from the racetrack. It does not make any sense to me at all that Porsche would offer a brake "upgrade" that doesn't improve performance on a racetrack. I really hope this is just a case of getting the new technology sorted out.

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    Here's PMNA's answer:

    The PCCB brakes are suitable for race track usage, but you have to change
    the pads to PAGID P50-RS14 (green). These pads are available from PMNA.
    Please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.

    The estimated lifetime of the PCCB rotors is about 1500 miles. Please check
    the rotors and pads periodically.

    Since you don't plan to run the "12 hours of Sebring", you can change to the
    RS 7:35 R&P and again can obtain almost every gear ratio to meet your needs.
    Again, please contact Phoebe in the parts department directly.

    Like I always state, tell your friends at PCA to contact PMNA directly with
    ANY questions regarding "new" cars. We will try our best to help, because
    we see this service also as an important part of Porsche. Unfortunately,
    many people in PCA believe that PMNA only cares about the important racing
    customers, but luckily this is absolutely not true.

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    Just to clarify MJ's post, the 1500 miles life on PCCB rotors is 1500 miles of track use/racing, not street life, which is still quoted by Porsche at 100,00 miles, I believe.

    Also the remainder of the quote was to address questions of swapping the GT3 street car gears with the shorter gears of the GT3 Cup, which PMNA is suggesting the alternative of just swapping the ring and pinion instead of the gear set to achieve the same performance goal.

    Karl

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    Quote:
    Just to clarify MJ's post, the 1500 miles life on PCCB rotors is 1500 miles of track use/racing, not street life, which is still quoted by Porsche at 100,00 miles, I believe.

    Also the remainder of the quote was to address questions of swapping the GT3 street car gears with the shorter gears of the GT3 Cup, which PMNA is suggesting the alternative of just swapping the ring and pinion instead of the gear set to achieve the same performance goal.

    Karl



    300000 km in theory, more likely something like 60000 km in reality if driven very hard on the street.
    Mixed track/street driving should result in a 30000-40000 km lifespan, maybe much less.
    It really depens on the driver and under what conditions the car is driven.
    300000 km probably are the theoretical possible maximum lifespan.
    The real problem is the replacement cost of the PCCB rotors.

    Re: PCCB on New GT3

    I agree, they run about $8K per set here in the US. I can change out the steel rotors 8 times for that kind of money.

    Karl

     
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