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    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Looking at Porsche's current known road map, then taking into account of Porsche's race cars and one should have the following conclusion.

    .2 GT3 is coming in March, .2 GT2RS will be summer/fall.

    Porsche had just updated their 3 race cars. Cup car always follows their GT3, which it just did.

    The GT3R and GT3RSR, which were based on the GT3RS, were just updated to use the new engines, and in the RSR's case, a waiver for the mid engine change. 

    FIA rules dictate that a race car has to stay pretty much the same for 2 years. So the 2018 car is the one Porsche can make major changes. Which I certainly see them do, slapping a couple turbos on to remain competitive with Ford, Ferrari, and even Aston Martin. The latest has already put a V12TT in the DB11 and that means their race car should have them soon, either they switch to racing DB11s or a new Vantage that will have turbo power. The switch to mid engine might help a bit but I cannot see them being competitive with the NA motor anymore.

    Porsche could theoretically homologate the GT2RS as the base for their 2018 RSR, perhaps also keeping the mid engine layout. A RS's bodywork is certainly better aero-wise than a regular 911, so I don't see them using a regular 911 body if they have alternatives. 

    Now if Porsche really switch to turbos for their race cars, there is no need to keep a GT3RS around anymore, they can use the GT2RS. 

    I am more and more convinced that there wouldn't be a .2 GT3RS. 

    The .2GT3 will be one of the last NA GT cars, barring any more special edition unicorns. 


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    RC:
    BiTurbo:
    RC:

    Heard of a 4.0 l engine with 495 hp recently (991.2 GT3). Manual as an option is pretty much confirmed.

    And engine reliability Smiley

    Is the 991.1 GT3 RS engine reliable? Smiley

    Haven't quite been following the RS reliability, since the GT3 never got a fix and some have their fates in pending mode with no further updates.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    thierry:

    RC,

    the more inf we get, the more I start to be (and may be wrongly) disappointed :

    - the price is increasing

    -the performance should be marginally imporved with 495 PS... still less than 500 PS like R and RS

    - whoopsy was claiming and I was excited that the motor is 2.5 version , meaning a direct link with racing, and a different motor from RS (2.0) and GT3 phase 1 (Unreliable 1.0).

    With now turbo charged engine on carerra GTS, and 450 PS, i'm pretty sure the car will be marginally faster on track, and may be I m wrong, but SLOWER on normal autobahn and raods, because of lack of torque.

    The main interest was to get a new motor with increased torque, coming 1000 rpm before former RS motor.

    What is now the real advantage ? Last NA motor on GT line ? May be ....

    I m also pretty demanding for a mark II version. May be I'm too much demanding and PORSCHE is just playing traditional game .....

    Any comments appreciated SmileySmiley

    Thanks to all of you for valuable inputs provided there anyhow !!!

    Always a pleasure to read the last comments on those threads !!!!

    I wrote that several pages back Smiley

    It is a 911. It will be marginally better than the previous version. Evolution rather than revolution and it has been like that for 50 years. No surprise here.

    Personally I am looking forward to a bit more revolution from Porsche because it is getting too predicable and borderline boring...


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    thierry:

    With now turbo charged engine on carerra GTS, and 450 PS, i'm pretty sure the car will be marginally faster on track, and may be I m wrong, but SLOWER on normal autobahn and raods, because of lack of torque.

    Autobahn performance is all about HP, (torque not so important, unless one is not shifting properly)...


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:

    Looking at Porsche's current known road map, then taking into account of Porsche's race cars and one should have the following conclusion.

    .2 GT3 is coming in March, .2 GT2RS will be summer/fall.

    Porsche had just updated their 3 race cars. Cup car always follows their GT3, which it just did.

    The GT3R and GT3RSR, which were based on the GT3RS, were just updated to use the new engines, and in the RSR's case, a waiver for the mid engine change. 

    FIA rules dictate that a race car has to stay pretty much the same for 2 years. So the 2018 car is the one Porsche can make major changes. Which I certainly see them do, slapping a couple turbos on to remain competitive with Ford, Ferrari, and even Aston Martin. The latest has already put a V12TT in the DB11 and that means their race car should have them soon, either they switch to racing DB11s or a new Vantage that will have turbo power. The switch to mid engine might help a bit but I cannot see them being competitive with the NA motor anymore.

    Porsche could theoretically homologate the GT2RS as the base for their 2018 RSR, perhaps also keeping the mid engine layout. A RS's bodywork is certainly better aero-wise than a regular 911, so I don't see them using a regular 911 body if they have alternatives. 

    Now if Porsche really switch to turbos for their race cars, there is no need to keep a GT3RS around anymore, they can use the GT2RS. 

    I am more and more convinced that there wouldn't be a .2 GT3RS. 

    The .2GT3 will be one of the last NA GT cars, barring any more special edition unicorns. 

    Have heard that the new Aston race car will be very "Vulcan inspired"


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:

    I am more and more convinced that there wouldn't be a .2 GT3RS. 

     

     

    where i must sign?SmileySmiley


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Nick, excellent summary.kiss

    However, your approach is geared more to performance parameters rather than business considerations. The Porsche GT line up is a huge money maker. There is no need to turn them into Turbo cars and compromise the sales of those cars. Despite the success of Ferrari and McLaren of their turbo cars, we must keep in mind they are small manufacturers and don't have the numbers to meet emission standards. They had to do turbo their cars. Porsche doesn't need to do that with the GT cars. A none aspirated car is unique, in demand and delivers on performance. Why give up that advantage with future models? Smiley

    I might add that I have owned Turbo cars and now own one. They just do not provide the excitement of NA GT cars.


    --

     

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    ....because its not competitive anymore against the torque monsters and with the electrification of even turbos one can downsize and achieve better results. I think we will even see a fob soon where u can choose the amount of cylinders u want to have working and boost and drive either with 3 liters consumption or full boost with 600plus HP all in 4 cylinders....as in the new merc hypercar. Get the gt3 - it will be a unicorn soon n retain its value longer i believe


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Nick, excellent summary.kiss

    However, your approach is geared more to performance parameters rather than business considerations. The Porsche GT line up is a huge money maker. There is no need to turn them into Turbo cars and compromise the sales of those cars. Despite the success of Ferrari and McLaren of their turbo cars, we must keep in mind they are small manufacturers and don't have the numbers to meet emission standards. They had to do turbo their cars. Porsche doesn't need to do that with the GT cars. A none aspirated car is unique, in demand and delivers on performance. Why give up that advantage with future models? Smiley

    I might add that I have owned Turbo cars and now own one. They just do not provide the excitement of NA GT cars.

     

    Let's see how much of a money maker they are when they start getting destroyed in tests not only by exotics, but by sports cars in general.

    There is a point when you cannot compensate for lack of power. Cars can only get so light while being modern, and when everyone can put giant spoilers and wide sticky tires on their cars too, you're going to need power.

    All your track prowess is for nothing when the test is on a track with a moderately high speed straight and the tenths of a second you gained in the turns are annihilated by the car that has 850 hp.


     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Who cares - people buy by looks smiley


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    Who cares - people buy by looks smiley

    Touché! Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Again, you're looking through performance glasses and not business. Today, Porsche cars are not on the top of the performance pyramid. Other than the 918, most of the Porsche models are in the mid or upper middle of performance. And that is exactly where Porsche is positioning their cars. And yet, they are selling their cars like hotcakes. And as for the GT models, they have huge wait list for models that have yet to be announced. Once they are turbo'ed that list will disappear. That speaks volumes.

     

     


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    GT cars only got popular once more people could (!) drive with PDK....


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    I think the spirit of GT cars will life also in turbo cars - surely as long andreas has a say they will always feel different to a non gt car


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    GT cars only got popular once more people could (!) drive with PDK....

    The GT4 and 911R seem pretty popular...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    I think the spirit of GT cars will life also in turbo cars - surely as long andreas has a say they will always feel different to a non gt car

    +1

    Turbo charging has a very long history within Porsche and has been extensively used by them in Motorsport for 40 years. 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Nick, excellent summary.kiss

    However, your approach is geared more to performance parameters rather than business considerations. The Porsche GT line up is a huge money maker. There is no need to turn them into Turbo cars and compromise the sales of those cars. Despite the success of Ferrari and McLaren of their turbo cars, we must keep in mind they are small manufacturers and don't have the numbers to meet emission standards. They had to do turbo their cars. Porsche doesn't need to do that with the GT cars. A none aspirated car is unique, in demand and delivers on performance. Why give up that advantage with future models? Smiley

    I might add that I have owned Turbo cars and now own one. They just do not provide the excitement of NA GT cars.


    --

     

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."

     

     

    No, I did consider the business case too. 1 in 6 car Porsche sells is a 911, of those, perhaps 10% are the GT cars. Not quite big volume, but not tiny either.

    As I said, going forward for at least 2017, Porsche will have 2 GT products, GT3 and GT2RS. Who knows, there might even be a GT version of the 718. These cars will more than make up for the volume from the lack of GT3RS. Not every GT buyer is a 918 owner who buys everything. Normal buyers pick and choose what they want. 

    They are not short on product offerings that's for sure.

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry

    It has the same engine as GT4 Clubsport race car...

    All road cars (GT included) are marketing products to some degree...


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Grant:
    BjoernB:

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry

    It has the same engine as GT4 Clubsport race car...

    All road cars (GT included) are marketing products to some degree...


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    And that engine has been race proven already.............................


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    noone1:
    nberry:

    Nick, excellent summary.kiss

    However, your approach is geared more to performance parameters rather than business considerations. The Porsche GT line up is a huge money maker. There is no need to turn them into Turbo cars and compromise the sales of those cars. Despite the success of Ferrari and McLaren of their turbo cars, we must keep in mind they are small manufacturers and don't have the numbers to meet emission standards. They had to do turbo their cars. Porsche doesn't need to do that with the GT cars. A none aspirated car is unique, in demand and delivers on performance. Why give up that advantage with future models? Smiley

    I might add that I have owned Turbo cars and now own one. They just do not provide the excitement of NA GT cars.

     

    Let's see how much of a money maker they are when they start getting destroyed in tests not only by exotics, but by sports cars in general.

    There is a point when you cannot compensate for lack of power. Cars can only get so light while being modern, and when everyone can put giant spoilers and wide sticky tires on their cars too, you're going to need power.

    All your track prowess is for nothing when the test is on a track with a moderately high speed straight and the tenths of a second you gained in the turns are annihilated by the car that has 850 hp.


     

    Yeah why don't they build air cooled cars anymore???


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    BjoernB:

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry

    It has the same engine as GT4 Clubsport race car...

    All road cars (GT included) are marketing products to some degree...


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    And that engine has been race proven already.............................

    Yeah, and I think the GT department would love to have the same reliability that it has Smiley


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Grant:
    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    BjoernB:

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry

    It has the same engine as GT4 Clubsport race car...

    All road cars (GT included) are marketing products to some degree...


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    And that engine has been race proven already.............................

    Yeah, and I think the GT department would love to have the same reliability that it has Smiley

    Cheeky Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Grant:
    thierry:

    With now turbo charged engine on carerra GTS, and 450 PS, i'm pretty sure the car will be marginally faster on track, and may be I m wrong, but SLOWER on normal autobahn and raods, because of lack of torque.

    Autobahn performance is all about HP, (torque not so important, unless one is not shifting properly)...


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    And aerodynamics (which is worse in case of the GT3 compared to the GTS) Smiley Also, the torque curve has an impact on the acceleration as it changes how the hp curve is shaped at the higher end.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    Grant:
    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    BjoernB:

    Gt4 has no gt engine n R is a marketing product  angry

    It has the same engine as GT4 Clubsport race car...

    All road cars (GT included) are marketing products to some degree...


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    And that engine has been race proven already.............................

    Yeah, and I think the GT department would love to have the same reliability that it has Smiley

    Cheeky Smiley

    Clever Clogs....indecision


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    thierry:

    RC,

    the more inf we get, the more I start to be (and may be wrongly) disappointed :

    - the price is increasing

    -the performance should be marginally imporved with 495 PS... still less than 500 PS like R and RS

    - whoopsy was claiming and I was excited that the motor is 2.5 version , meaning a direct link with racing, and a different motor from RS (2.0) and GT3 phase 1 (Unreliable 1.0).

    With now turbo charged engine on carerra GTS, and 450 PS, i'm pretty sure the car will be marginally faster on track, and may be I m wrong, but SLOWER on normal autobahn and raods, because of lack of torque.

    The main interest was to get a new motor with increased torque, coming 1000 rpm before former RS motor.

    What is now the real advantage ? Last NA motor on GT line ? May be ....

    I m also pretty demanding for a mark II version. May be I'm too much demanding and PORSCHE is just playing traditional game .....

    Any comments appreciated SmileySmiley

    Thanks to all of you for valuable inputs provided there anyhow !!!

    Always a pleasure to read the last comments on those threads !!!!

    I wrote that several pages back Smiley

    It is a 911. It will be marginally better than the previous version. Evolution rather than revolution and it has been like that for 50 years. No surprise here.

    Personally I am looking forward to a bit more revolution from Porsche because it is getting too predicable and borderline boring...

    Smiley Not sure what people expect from the 991.2 GT3. Smiley It will be an amazing car and yes, probably one of the last n/a GT cars without production limitation. I see it very positively and I would get one if I had the money and room for another car.

    All I can promise is a complete overhaul for the 992. This car is going to finally be different (interior) from the Boxster/Cayman and a lot of new tech will be available, lifting the 911 finally to the 21st century. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Again, you're looking through performance glasses and not business. Today, Porsche cars are not on the top of the performance pyramid. Other than the 918, most of the Porsche models are in the mid or upper middle of performance. And that is exactly where Porsche is positioning their cars. And yet, they are selling their cars like hotcakes. And as for the GT models, they have huge wait list for models that have yet to be announced. Once they are turbo'ed that list will disappear. That speaks volumes.

     

     

    Hot cakes? How many GT3s do they really sell each year?


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    For those keen on GT and RS models in the Porsche range, please do not worry. There will be more of these models in the future than there were in the past. AP knows the target customer base rather well. The GT and RS models provide the "halo" models which also help support the overall strength of the brand. Look at how the success of the GT4 has elevated the Cayman platform. AP also understands how to keep the GT and RS models differentiated from the competition. It is not just about straight line performance. The key is the emotional engagement with the driver. How special does the car feel to drive? Many high performance cars do not come alive until you are travelling at a serious speed. The GT and RS models for Porsche are engineered to feel special all the way from tickover to the redline. These are some of the reasons that AP will continue to develop cars with naturally aspirated engines and to offer a manual gearbox, which will keep Porsche's GT and RS models in a league of their own.

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    I hope you are right and I would agree 100% that Porsche need GT models with NA engines also in the future to keep the brand as high as it is now. But Porsche is not anymore a sports car brand. Cayenne, Macan, Panamera make far more than 50% of their sales.

    But I dont believe that the board will decide in the right way. How can it happen that the 718 get that engine it got. A big mistake, in my view the killed the Boxster/Cayman. Never in the last 20 years a new  model was so unscuccessful in sale than the 718. Never before there where so many negative reviews of a new Porsche model as of the 718. And this was absolutly no surprise.

    I expect the 992 GT3 not to be a NA engined car. And I have doubts that we will see 992 special limited cars with NA engine. I expect they will go more the 919 way.


    --

     

    daily: BMW 430d
    for fun: Porsche Boxster GTS

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    The world is full of compromises, maybe Porsche compromised the engine of the 718, brought the Cayenne, Macan and Panamera to market, as a way to keep the 911 alive in GT/RS NA world?  


     
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