Crown

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/germany-tesla-model-s-subsidy-payback/

alexalex88:

Carlos from Spain:

alexalex88:

Your hate towards Musk makes you hate everything he is involved in automatically.

Hate? Dont even know the guy, just in this thread I posted about how good was the idea of Musk's Starlink internet and hope he pulls it off. Take off the Muskite goggles and dont prejudge anyone that says something you dont like about him. It is what it is, the above paragraph Bluelines cited was spot on.

I'm not pointing anyone Carlos. But imho most of you/the guys around here criticize every single move coming from him.

I fondly dislike Tesla poor interior, battery drain when the car is pushed hard, etc. But they nailed it manufacturing the first good looking EV + an astonishing performance.

I'm not a huge fan of his (lack of?) managment in front of Tesla. However I applaud his initiative.

I'm not a huge fan of EV either, ICE guy here. However I embrace the innovation when done properly and I admire how such a "small" company like Tesla has shaked up an almost monopolystic industry as the car industry is.

I'm not a huge fan of Tesla's stock volatility. But it's true that there have been gurus trying to predict company's end for years and they have failed miserably until today. There are lot of factors to consider further other than Tesla production  wreck.

On the other hand you (again, not you personally but lots of members from RT) seem to be really excited about hypothetical plans and proyects from VAG f.e. Having said that, this same excitement doesn't apply to Tesla, don't know why, when the american company has thousands of cars out there (knowledge) and millions of electric kilometers (data).

 

Unlike some of the electric car nut here. or those from the EV forums, most of us here are fairly objective instead of blindly drinking Musk's koolaid. Most of us are quite successful in what we do and we don't get to where we are today by blindly believing some wild tales as told by some wild guy.

Why are we critical of what Elon said? Cause most of what he said are plain lies and fairy tales. The books are all there, the numbers are all there, Elon try to sugar coat stuff to make them go down easy, but if anyone just spend some time reading the reports and one can see that Elon is just doing PR stunts playing with his numbers every time. 

Tesla is not a highly established entity yet, and Elon is not helping by posting fairy tales after fairy tales and unrealistic numbers. Hence the skepticism. Porsche on the other hand has a long history already, and everything they have ever said are all understatements, their actual product always exceed what they had promised. That's why. When is the last time Porsche didn't meet their expectation, vs how many times Elon had postpone his production target?

Hypothetical?   If there wouldn't be that shitty NDA, your eyeballs would fall off... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

I have no doubt the line up will be great. The real question is prices and canibalization of existing models.

9 electric cars that will challenge Tesla's Model 3 - Business Insider https://apple.news/A9Rsji-QfRiKmpVmMg_kCcQ

some errors in the article but interesting (VW Polestar).

And it just proves what I have been saying all along: even if Tesla folds, they already won. Just look at the VW ID Cross, it is nothing less than a direct competitor of the Tesla model Y, EV, modern clean interior and all. Of course the production car will not look as sleek as that render, but in the end, if it wasn’t for Tesla, that car would not be designed and manufactured. This still does not answer how they will keep selling any other models if these are sold too cheap.

Not all people prefer EVs. That's why.

Most actually don't like EVs.

alexalex88:

On the other hand you (again, not you personally but lots of members from RT) seem to be really excited about hypothetical plans and proyects from VAG f.e. Having said that, this same excitement doesn't apply to Tesla, don't know why, when the american company has thousands of cars out there (knowledge) and millions of electric kilometers (data).

Maybe because its a Porche-centric forum, and people are rooting for the brand they've loved for many years, rather than a company that has dropped the ball many times and has a questionable "leader" at the helm?

Enmanuel:

alexalex88:

On the other hand you (again, not you personally but lots of members from RT) seem to be really excited about hypothetical plans and proyects from VAG f.e. Having said that, this same excitement doesn't apply to Tesla, don't know why, when the american company has thousands of cars out there (knowledge) and millions of electric kilometers (data).

Maybe because its a Porche-centric forum, and people are rooting for the brand they've loved for many years, rather than a company that has dropped the ball many times and has a questionable "leader" at the helm?

  That's the correct answer!

Returning to a couple of other posts above, unfortunately, changing regulation is making more and more difficult for automakers to meet without resorting to EVs.  This is the impetus, not considering Tesla direct competition.   Look at what has happened with diesel over the past six months-fewer and fewer models are being offered with this fueling option-as emission standards and testing regimes are becoming more stringent.  

Just wait till the short term when the competition puts their alternatives available on regular showrooms...

Refunds now outpace deposits for Tesla's new mass-market electric car, according to Needham & Co. analyst Rajvindra Gill.

24% of Tesla Model 3 orders have been canceled, analyst says

https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/19/technology/business/tesla-downgrade/index.html

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Just wait till the short term when the competition puts their alternatives available on regular showrooms...

Refunds now outpace deposits for Tesla's new mass-market electric car, according to Needham & Co. analyst Rajvindra Gill.

24% of Tesla Model 3 orders have been canceled, analyst says

https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/19/technology/business/tesla-downgrade/index.html

Wall Street, and its Big Oil/Big Car friends, are out to get him: https://nypost.com/2018/07/19/elon-musks-bizarre-tweets-are-raising-red-flags-on-wall-street/

Tesla started the EV "revolution", what did he (Musk) expect? Did he (or any analyst) think that the big car companies will just sit back and watch him do his thing? The VW emissions scandal actually is probably the main reason Tesla will be gone in a couple of years...because VW Group was basically "forced" into the EV business by public pressure, government regulations, circumstances and their own inability to deal with the emissions scandal in a proper manner.

Funny enough, it could also mean that VW is too early in the game and will take some huge losses with the EV business before it can actually start off... I said it before, it is too early and I just don't see that huge of a market for these cars right now. In 20 years? Maybe. Combustion engines aren't finished yet but if car manufacturers think they are and do everything to make them go away, EVs may actually be successful sooner than expected but I still have my doubts.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Well I prefer a Tesla over nay electric car of the big ones.......like it or not..it is like an Iphone in the beginning....now the samsung are better but people still stay with iphones from apple..of course they are loosing clients..but apple fan are always fan...

993 c2

xander71:

Well I prefer a Tesla over nay electric car of the big ones.......like it or not..it is like an Iphone in the beginning....now the samsung are better but people still stay with iphones from apple..of course they are loosing clients..but apple fan are always fan...

Ehmmm... 

We could discuss a lot about this matter but you (and others) wouldn't like it.  Only as a hint: FaceID technology was around two(!) years ahead of the competition when the iPhone X was introduced.

Also, there are better (let me rephrase: faster and/or more innovative) Android phones on the market than Samsung (incl. the S9), like the Oppo Find X Super Flash or maybe even the new Xiaomi Mi Mix 3.

Are you a Samsung fan boy?   

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

The Tesla Model 3 interior sets a radical new standard for auto design - Business Insider https://apple.news/ADWrjYmfHS9CySmUwWmGUJA

That is the most horrific interior I have ever seen of any car north of 10,000$... I mean, I get it on a Kei car (which is what that reminds me of BTW) but on a 50k car?  ... Its like PP or AP using a Swatch's face and call it minimalist. And its not the future either, futuristic interiors have nothing to do with plain, empty interiors, unergonomic interiors, this is just Tesla's idea to try to look different, like Star Trek's TNG console and displays 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Have you sat in one? It is actually pretty nice...

Carlos from Spain:

That is the most horrific interior I have ever seen of any car north of 10,000$... I mean, I get it on a Kei car (which is what that reminds me of BTW) but on a 50k car?  ... Its like PP or AP using a Swatch's face and call it minimalist. And its not the future either, futuristic interiors have nothing to do with plain, empty interiors, unergonomic interiors, this is just Tesla's idea to try to look different, like Star Trek's TNG console and displays 

 

The white interior of the performance variant is garish: https://electrek-co.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/05/tesla-model-3-white-interior-21.jpg?quality=82&strip=all

OK this is a personal opinion but I will explain what it looks to me. To me the problem is how bleak and plain it looks, like a car so basic that came with no features or options just a wheel and two pedals. A big opened pocket in the middle console, just a huge whole with a flat lid, no embellishments or usefull realstate for features even if cleverly disguised or hidden. But then there is however a massive square flat TV screen sticking out in the middle completely unintegrated with the rest of the console or dash, like if it was aftermarket add on that was screwed on top. Everything is empty and featureless and then you have the opposite, a huge bulky screen in the middle. Also there is no appearance of luxury or cozyness anywhere, the steering wheel looks like out of a Ford, everything is plastic or fake leather but with no sophistication in design, no details, its as a basic as it can be, like a mass produced cheap car that needs to be very basic in its panels so its cheap to build in numbers. Sure its minimalist, but not in the good way, its cheap thoughtless easy minimalism, like in a japanese Kei car, but in a kei car the reason is because its a cheap small pure utility car.

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

is all I have to say... Have you actually driven or even sat in one?

SciFrog:

is all I have to say... Have you actually driven or even sat in one?

I have in early December 2017, and remain underwhelmed.

Carlos from Spain:

OK this is a personal opinion but I will explain what it looks to me. To me the problem is how bleak and plain it looks, like a car so basic that came with no features or options just a wheel and two pedals. A big opened pocket in the middle console, just a huge whole with a flat lid, no embellishments or usefull realstate for features even if cleverly disguised or hidden. But then there is however a massive square flat TV screen sticking out in the middle completely unintegrated with the rest of the console or dash, like if it was aftermarket add on that was screwed on top. Everything is empty and featureless and then you have the opposite, a huge bulky screen in the middle. Also there is no appearance of luxury or cozyness anywhere, the steering wheel looks like out of a Ford, everything is plastic or fake leather but with no sophistication in design, no details, its as a basic as it can be, like a mass produced cheap car that needs to be very basic in its panels so its cheap to build in numbers. Sure its minimalist, but not in the good way, its cheap thoughtless easy minimalism, like in a japanese Kei car, but in a kei car the reason is because its a cheap small pure utility car.

 

--

 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

 

Look at the openning below the screen. 

well i was apple fan many years ago...today I dont care ..just buy a good thing that is working it could be samsung, huaweii ora any other, i did hate apple because of I tunes.hahaha it is so difficult to manage that I surrended to whatever that was no apple.

for my mind also the mac are to difficult to use...hahaha 

993 c2

I explain why I am tesla fan, and had a order for the model s and then I switched to model 3

In Italy you cannot use the tesla for working since I have to drive long distances, but perfect for daily use as a city car ( max 200 km a day) which is my average.

I decided to go electric :

1) you can access city center and park for free, here in Italy having this possibility is like winning at the lottery

2) what can you get for ca 40/50 k electric with a nice design and no SUV style and nice speed like 0-100 arounf 5/6 sec??

3) since I will use it as a daily car for city and extra city within 200 km it have to take me to point A to B and with autopilot in the daily traffic jam will help a lot in Bologna city highway

4) inside...it has just to be thinked as a model T form ford at the beginning essential..it is like a fridge..an owen...you should not think it as a luxury car

5) what other cars are there in the market now with those figures???

I have nice and fun cars that I use when I want to drive, when working daily the car is just a problem...speed traps..road tolls..etc....so avoiding all those thing ( of course not speed traps) it is incredible for a daily use...of course you can do it with a renault zoe..and other simiir cars...but they dont do what a model 3 can

993 c2

Jaguar I-Pace, its EV with same specs but doesnt looj like a minivan, it has a decent interior, a dealer infrastructure, and is sportier. And in a couple of years you will have more options from others.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Jaguar I-Pace, its EV with same specs but doesnt looj like a minivan, it has a decent interior, a dealer infrastructure, and is sportier. And in a couple of years you will have more options from others.

Funny that you make this statement without having driven or experienced any of the cars . Also your post about the Model 3 interior sounds a bit like an old fart complaining back in 2007 when the first iPhone was released lacking any sort of buttons 

I have driven the new I-Pace, have lot's of miles in a Model S and also driven the Model 3 in California quite extensively. I'd say that the I-Pace would be my last choice out of these cars for several reasons. Not very keen on the interior in the Jaguar either, but that's another story and of course my very personal opinion. The Tesla is an iPhone on wheels, which the I-Pace clearly is not. The Jaguar on it's own is a great little car that will appeal to a certain type of customer, just like the different Teslas will appeal to others. The I-Pace is also in a different size segment where it is much smaller than both X and S and from a size perspective more similar to Model 3 albeit jacked-up SUV with good off-road capabilities.  All in all good news and great that we start to see more alternatives for those who would like to shop an EV as their next daily driver 

Something worth mentioning about the I-Pace though... It unfortunately completely lack fast charging infrastructure and it is a real challenge to drive it on longer commutes. The energy consumption in the I-Pace (real world testing @ 130km/h) is about 40% higher than a Model S and about 25% higher than Model X due to worse aero. The Jag also only got a 1-phase 32A 7,4kW onboard charger, which in many European homes makes a charge from empty to full take 24hours+ (many homes in EU have max 20A, which will make the charging time even longer). Also when public charging the I-Pace on any of the (most common) 22kW AC public chargers @hotels, shopping malls, parking garages etc, the I-Pace can just take 7,4kW, even if the charger can deliver 22kW. Similar if the I-Pace is connected to a 11kW 16A charger which is also very common, it can only take 3,6kW. None of this is mentioned in any reviews from the traditional auto journalists, because they just don't understand...

Wall street journal

"ENTER, STAGE LEFT, humming: I have borrowed a new 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance ($78,000, as tested) from the factory in Fremont, Calif., and I’m now quietly tearing the hide off this switchback road in the grass-gold hills near Silicon Valley. This is the first test drive of the hotrod Tesla. In the Performance version, two motors north and south equal 335 kW (450 hp) and digitally mastered all-wheel drive, with corner-exiting acceleration that will leave average BMW M4s with a soft auf Wiedersehen. 

And this is guilt-free hooning since I’ll recover, going downhill, most energy expended going up. Give her the spurs, Moon Flower.

The Model 3’s uncanny stability while cornering is mostly the product of its lithium-battery keel; but Tesla didn’t skimp on the suspension bits: upper and lower A arms (aluminum and steel) with virtual steer axis geometry, twin-tube coilovers and anti-roll bar in front; in the rear, a multi-link geometry, also with twin-tube shocks and anti-roll bar. For now the hottest tires available are the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, which are nice all-rounders but not particularly grippy. My message to the engineers: more tire.

I’m no financial analyst, but I do know cars. If you were hoping Tesla would fail on account of the Model 3 I’ve got bad news: This thing is magnificent, a little rainbow-farting space ship, so obviously representative of the next step in the history of autos. I know there are a lot of Tesla bears, haters and cynics out there. Tesla boss Elon Musk makes it easy. But in the spirit of charity I think we can all agree many brilliant people are putzes.

The Model 3 is more than futuristic. It’s optimistic. This is what ordinary cars should be, which is to say, better than they are.

Sure, Tesla has issues. I say this as a veteran of many plant tours: The factory in Fremont is a dimly lit, vertically integrated madhouse. The place is the Kobe beef of lean production, with subassemblies and panels stacked to the rafters. About 30 percent of the Model 3’s robotic assemblers are hanging from above, to increase what one engineer called “manufacturing density.” Jeez. Keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all times.

But the car is a star. Doubters will have to bring it. Show me another car with an all-glass roof and five-star rollover crash rating. Point out another $80,000 sedan that out-clouds a Rolls-Royce, out-punches a Porsche Boxster and gets an electric equivalent of 116 mpg. You can’t, unless you’re building something in your garage we don’t know about."

On the build quality topic...
"Build quality: Beta-phase Model 3s had pretty awful panel-gap tolerances—even the show car at the 2017 Los Angeles Auto Show. Why? The stampings of the deep-draft aluminum body panels were “moving” after they were stamped, explained a production engineer. That’s not unusual. Such tool-fettling occurs with almost any aluminum-paneled car project; the difference is, Tesla made all these adjustments under the blazing lights of investors and speculators. 

But the cars I’ve driven are very straight, with uniform panel gaps. The wind noise around the windows that some early testers had noted was nowhere to be heard. Looks like the robots got the memo."

Full article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/first-ever-review-of-the-tesla-model-3-performance-a-thrilling-modern-marvel-1532022533

Short MKBHD teaser video posted on IG of his upcoming Model 3 Performance review. This new track mode that is coming soon in a sw-updatet is very interesting. Model 3 with the 2170 battery cells and AC/PM motors combo doesn't have the power limits either and will probably be very track capable for consecutive laps.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/BleQd6TAjIw/

SciFrog:

The Tesla Model 3 interior sets a radical new standard for auto design - Business Insider https://apple.news/ADWrjYmfHS9CySmUwWmGUJA

Radical for sure - new standard hopefully not although it‘s clear that the transformation from self driven cars to people moving machines will radically change the interior design.

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

xander71:

 

I decided to go electric :

1) you can access city center and park for free, here in Italy having this possibility is like winning at the lottery

 

Yes, I fully understand this point. Though couple of days before I had a call with a business partner in Milan while he was sitting in his car and there were terrible noises in the background and his voice was trembling like he would sit in a rocket at launch. So I asked him about it and he let me know that he would use an electric car in the city (his office is in the heart of the old town not accessible with a non-electric car) and that the suspension (loaded with the heavy battery) could not cope well with the rough surface of the old town roads. I didn‘t ask about the car brand or type he was driving - may do next time around.

Daily Driver 991 Carrera T (June 2018), Canyon Carver 981 Spyder, Track Machine 997 GT3

One will admit that this article is a bit harsh: https://nypost.com/2018/07/21/elon-musk-is-a-total-fraud/