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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    kudryavchik:

    I am with whoopsy and rc. Ev is sh-t. Dot. 

    I’m not certain Whoopsy agrees 100%. He likes the non Tesla EVs just fine. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Leawood911:
    kudryavchik:

    I am with whoopsy and rc. Ev is sh-t. Dot. 

    I’m not certain Whoopsy agrees 100%. He likes the non Tesla EVs just fine. 

     

    More like I am different than Tesla people that think Teslas are the greatest and best. 

    They are good enough for some of the things they can do however. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Drove the Taycan Turbo S on the Hockenheim experience center track last monday and was very impressed (behind a instructor lady in a GT3RS Mk1) indecision (car was black with the racetec and gold (!) Frame appliances but looked epic)


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    BjoernB:

    Drove the Taycan Turbo S on the Hockenheim experience center track last monday and was very impressed (behind a instructor lady in a GT3RS Mk1) indecision (car was black with the racetec and gold (!) Frame appliances but looked epic)

    The Taycan Turbo S is amazing for such a heavy car and I really like how it looks but range is a joke and compared to the new Tesla S Plaid, the Taycan Turbo S is a joke as well. Why would someone get a Taycan Turbo S instead of a Tesla S Plaid for half the money?! Smiley The Plaid is a marvel of modern EV development, years ahead of everyone else in the market in my opinion. I can see a Tesla Model 3 Plaid on the horizon, just imagine this little thing with 800 hp or so...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    I have heard lots of rumors about a three motor Model 3 coming. Using the new 4680 cells. Fun stuff to look forward to but I’m good for now with the existing shove. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    EV's biggest enemy is the weight.  EVs do just about everything else better than ICEs.

    I wonder when we will get to Solid State Battery tech.


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    I've heard that they wanna keep the batteries on low(er) temperatures with one oil system thru out the batterie itself and the rest of the car - only 1 radiator needed. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Why would someone get a Taycan Turbo S instead of a Tesla S Plaid for half the money?! Smiley The Plaid is a marvel of modern EV development, years ahead of everyone else in the market in my opinion. I can see a Tesla Model 3 Plaid on the horizon, just imagine this little thing with 800 hp or so...

     

    I agree having driven both. Order in.


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    NelsonF:

    Why would someone get a Taycan Turbo S instead of a Tesla S Plaid for half the money?! Smiley The Plaid is a marvel of modern EV development, years ahead of everyone else in the market in my opinion. I can see a Tesla Model 3 Plaid on the horizon, just imagine this little thing with 800 hp or so...

     

    I agree having driven both. Order in.

     

    The same answer as to why would someone buy a Merceds E-Class vs buying a Camry at hand the price. Mercedes vs Toyota, Porsche vs Tesla.

    They compete in completely different segments, the only thing they have in common is they both have 4 wheels, 4 doors and both are EVs and that's about it.

    The Tesla Plaid cost a lot of money, but it simply doesn't have a lot of luxury features that buyers wanted. it also does't have the brand power like a Porsche. It may have some geeky features that some geeks like, but that's a very narrow target audience. And it still runs on slower last generation 400V system. 

    And talking about the Taycan turbo S, even I won't buy it, heck I didn't even ordered the turbo, a Taycan 4S Cross Turismo is perfectly fine as a disposable item, even when I pay extra to load it up with leather and stitchings. And I normally just order the top turbo S trim for any Porsches I ordered and really load them up with options. That tells you something about the fast moving tech in the EV segment. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

     

    A really long video, but Kyle basically drove from Nurburgring all the way to Sweden across Denmark at the Norway border in a Taycan turbo Cross Turismo. Utilizing all the fast chargers along the way. Basically flexing the 800V system's muscle with 200+kW, 270kW max charing. The way the Taycan goes from 4%, 10% to 50% at those chargers means pumping in 250+kW all the way before it tapers to 220kW, 230kW after 50%. Nothing on the road right now can touch those charging speed. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    And as a comparison, this video is about using the Taycan for a 1000 mile road trip.

    Very difference experience, chargers don't always work nor do they go really fast. Also had to deal with the problem of a Tesla owner ignoring a Tesla plug and grab the normal plug to charge up his car instead. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Whoopsy:
    NelsonF:

    Why would someone get a Taycan Turbo S instead of a Tesla S Plaid for half the money?! Smiley The Plaid is a marvel of modern EV development, years ahead of everyone else in the market in my opinion. I can see a Tesla Model 3 Plaid on the horizon, just imagine this little thing with 800 hp or so...

     

    I agree having driven both. Order in.

     

    The same answer as to why would someone buy a Merceds E-Class vs buying a Camry at hand the price. Mercedes vs Toyota, Porsche vs Tesla.

    I don't see the analogy in the case of the Porsche and the Tesla. At all. Smiley If you are talking image and brand name, maybe.

    They compete in completely different segments, the only thing they have in common is they both have 4 wheels, 4 doors and both are EVs and that's about it.

    Again, I a disagree here. The Porsche and the Tesla compete in the complete same segment, minus the image maybe. 

    I wish I could say the Porsche is faster on the track but it isn't. Smiley

    The Tesla Plaid cost a lot of money, but it simply doesn't have a lot of luxury features that buyers wanted. it also does't have the brand power like a Porsche. It may have some geeky features that some geeks like, but that's a very narrow target audience. And it still runs on slower last generation 400V system. 

    Some of the luxury features of the Porsche are useless and again, this is more about image and maybe a little bit of luxury. So buyers need to decide what is more important for them and for me, performance would definitely be my top priority. Nobody would buy a Lamborghini Urus instead of a Trackhawk, like I did but I think that the Urus is lightyears ahead of the Trackhawk in the interior and exterior design/quality department, while the Trackhawk delivers basically the same straight line performance for almost 40% of the cost of the Urus. Yes, in the case of the Urus, if I could afford it, I would have taken the Urus for various reasons but Taycan and Model S? Different story in my opinion. They are pretty similar, even if the Taycan has a nicer design and interior. The Urus and the Trackhawk are really completely different segments.

    And talking about the Taycan turbo S, even I won't buy it, heck I didn't even ordered the turbo, a Taycan 4S Cross Turismo is perfectly fine as a disposable item, even when I pay extra to load it up with leather and stitchings. And I normally just order the top turbo S trim for any Porsches I ordered and really load them up with options. That tells you something about the fast moving tech in the EV segment. 

     

    Depends what you want and I get you, I really do. You have many different cars to choose from but mere mortals like me and others have maybe one, two or three cars to choose from and the choice is really important, depending on what one expects from the cars.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    While the Tesla is clearly just a bunch of loose fitting parts ready to pile into the short braking zone every street presents it does have around 50+ very useful features the other car makers have not even dreamed up. All included for free.  Again, it is of course a total piece of crap but it does a lot for its price.  
    Fun fact - Tesla, the shitty car company, is now worth more than all the other car makers combined. Maybe it is not just a car company?  What does this say about the other car companies?  They must be on the right track. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Took Taycan Turbo S to a track today.  

    The balance was excellent and the weight penalty was surprisingly well hidden but the limitations of tyre grip was evident. 

    When it let go, thanks to its long wheelbase, the turning axis was around the front tires, so super easy to correct.  And the times if you do want them to slide you just hold the steering wheel straight which puts it in a neutral drift, but as soon as you counter steer the car came out of the drift immediately.  

    The battery was depleted from 90% to 39% after two 25 minute sessions.  

    Promising, but the BEV has a long way to go.


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Yes, more agreement. Also, debadged the Tesla Plaid makes for a very interesting and fun sleeper in the vein of my former M5's and Panamera Turbo S that I also debadged and added some performance tweeks.Smiley


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Jean:

    Took Taycan Turbo S to a track today.  

    The balance was excellent and the weight penalty was surprisingly well hidden but the limitations of tyre grip was evident. 

    When it let go, thanks to its long wheelbase, the turning axis was around the front tires, so super easy to correct.  And the times if you do want them to slide you just hold the steering wheel straight which puts it in a neutral drift, but as soon as you counter steer the car came out of the drift immediately.  

    The battery was depleted from 90% to 39% after two 25 minute sessions.  

    Promising, but the BEV has a long way to go.

     

    That's how Porsche had tuned their AWD system since pretty much forever, not just the Taycan. Not quite like how it was taught for the longest time but one you get the hang of it it's super easy to hold a drift like forever. You can sign up for one of the Ice Experience courses and try it on other Porsche products.

    Once you get the drift started, it will just drift forever with a neutral steering. More steering angle will make the tail come out more, counter steer to get the car straighten up. With neutral steering, more gas will widen the drift circle, less gas will tighten the circle. 


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    NelsonF:

    Why would someone get a Taycan Turbo S instead of a Tesla S Plaid for half the money?! Smiley The Plaid is a marvel of modern EV development, years ahead of everyone else in the market in my opinion. I can see a Tesla Model 3 Plaid on the horizon, just imagine this little thing with 800 hp or so...

     

    I agree having driven both. Order in.

     

    The same answer as to why would someone buy a Merceds E-Class vs buying a Camry at hand the price. Mercedes vs Toyota, Porsche vs Tesla.

    I don't see the analogy in the case of the Porsche and the Tesla. At all. Smiley If you are talking image and brand name, maybe.

    They compete in completely different segments, the only thing they have in common is they both have 4 wheels, 4 doors and both are EVs and that's about it.

    Again, I a disagree here. The Porsche and the Tesla compete in the complete same segment, minus the image maybe. 

    I wish I could say the Porsche is faster on the track but it isn't. Smiley

    The Tesla Plaid cost a lot of money, but it simply doesn't have a lot of luxury features that buyers wanted. it also does't have the brand power like a Porsche. It may have some geeky features that some geeks like, but that's a very narrow target audience. And it still runs on slower last generation 400V system. 

    Some of the luxury features of the Porsche are useless and again, this is more about image and maybe a little bit of luxury. So buyers need to decide what is more important for them and for me, performance would definitely be my top priority. Nobody would buy a Lamborghini Urus instead of a Trackhawk, like I did but I think that the Urus is lightyears ahead of the Trackhawk in the interior and exterior design/quality department, while the Trackhawk delivers basically the same straight line performance for almost 40% of the cost of the Urus. Yes, in the case of the Urus, if I could afford it, I would have taken the Urus for various reasons but Taycan and Model S? Different story in my opinion. They are pretty similar, even if the Taycan has a nicer design and interior. The Urus and the Trackhawk are really completely different segments.

    And talking about the Taycan turbo S, even I won't buy it, heck I didn't even ordered the turbo, a Taycan 4S Cross Turismo is perfectly fine as a disposable item, even when I pay extra to load it up with leather and stitchings. And I normally just order the top turbo S trim for any Porsches I ordered and really load them up with options. That tells you something about the fast moving tech in the EV segment. 

     

    Depends what you want and I get you, I really do. You have many different cars to choose from but mere mortals like me and others have maybe one, two or three cars to choose from and the choice is really important, depending on what one expects from the cars.

     

    Tesla is the benchmark for EV, there is no question about it. If someone wants a EV, they will all start with a Tesla first, and select from their 4 offerings. If they are happy with those 4, that's the end of the story. Tesla sold another car, simple as that.

    If they want a cheaper one, cheaper than even the Model 3, they will ended up with a Leaf or a Bolt or something. Something cute? e-Mini. Maybe they want more of a conventional interior, so one from KIA or Hyundai. Perhaps the ID4 styling caught their eye more than a Model Y, so a VW it is. 

    Same happens at the other end of the spectrum. One wants a people mover, Model X is too 'radical', so the Audi e-Tron then if range doesn't matter or if charging speed is more valued. For someone that wants the ultimate straight line speed, the new Plaid fits the bill, but if someone value luxury attribute more, prefer a more prestige brand, Taycan or Audi or the new Mercedes. For people that value handling it will be between Taycan and e-Tron GT. Lucid will be one for those that wanted more range.

    If someone wants a EV truck, then there is the incoming F150 Lightning, Rivian, Hummer. There isn't a Tesla equivalent yet. And since Tesla isn't first to market with a truck, they won't be the benchmark to measure against in this segment.

    This is the beauty of free market, consumers have their own free choices, each of them have their own priorities and value attributes differently, and now with all these offerings on the market, they can all ended up different choices of cars. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    There is still a lot to differentiate the Tesla from both the less expensive and the more expensive competition. They give people good reasons to spend a bit more due to free extras the others don’t offer and excellent resale values and also give good reasons to compromise ultimate fit, finish and luxury with outstanding performance and loaded tech like superior sound systems and entertainment included. 
    The elephant in the room is the incredible safety and reliability not to mention autopilot on the highway.  Unless the high end and low end competition address some of this the customers will make obvious choices. 
    For example - my next OTA update will allow me to monitor any sentry mode cameras on my phone from anywhere in the world and alert me if someone messes with the car. I will even be able to activate the outside speaker and warn them or talk to them.  I had no idea it could do this and dozens of other features like this when I bought the car.  They all keep coming for free. Same for the guys who bought the first Model3 or a 12 year old model S .   You see the difference once you own these cars. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Excellent. Yet, there will still be haters.Smiley


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Leawood911:

    There is still a lot to differentiate the Tesla from both the less expensive and the more expensive competition. They give people good reasons to spend a bit more due to free extras the others don’t offer and excellent resale values and also give good reasons to compromise ultimate fit, finish and luxury with outstanding performance and loaded tech like superior sound systems and entertainment included. 
    The elephant in the room is the incredible safety and reliability not to mention autopilot on the highway.  Unless the high end and low end competition address some of this the customers will make obvious choices. 
    For example - my next OTA update will allow me to monitor any sentry mode cameras on my phone from anywhere in the world and alert me if someone messes with the car. I will even be able to activate the outside speaker and warn them or talk to them.  I had no idea it could do this and dozens of other features like this when I bought the car.  They all keep coming for free. Same for the guys who bought the first Model3 or a 12 year old model S .   You see the difference once you own these cars. 

     

    Like I said, Teslas are the default choice for people looking at EVs. If a Tesla fit the bill then the decision is done. People only move away from Teslas when their wants and needs aren't covered by Tesla's offerings.

    I don't have a Tesla simply because Teslas can't fulfil my needs. You have a Tesla as it fulfills yours. Simple as that.

     


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    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Hoping Tesla or others will make a truly sporty EV for the enthusiast driver. Is it the Roadster? Not sure yet....


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    The real enthusiast driver is not going to want on their sportscar a boring silent gearless heavy EV engine that is just like every other EV engine, sportscars are not about 0-60 times, and especially nowadays where you can't reach very high speeds on public roads and you need something that is thrilling and emotional to drive even at lower speeds.


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

     

    A really long video, but Kyle basically drove from Nurburgring all the way to Sweden across Denmark at the Norway border in a Taycan turbo Cross Turismo. Utilizing all the fast chargers along the way. Basically flexing the 800V system's muscle with 200+kW, 270kW max charing. The way the Taycan goes from 4%, 10% to 50% at those chargers means pumping in 250+kW all the way before it tapers to 220kW, 230kW after 50%. Nothing on the road right now can touch those charging speed. 

     

     

    Whoopsy,

    you are always talking about the 800V system as so much superior. But for my understanding it has not a huge impact on loading time. The cells have the same voltage if you use 400 or 800V. The system around the battery cells are lighter and due to less current the heating is easier to manage.


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    This is likely the case given our historical enthusiast experience as physics will still rule. However, I'm fairly certain that there are some enterprising auto companies that will provide their versions of an EV sports car in the near future and I look forward to their success. Smiley


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    ALDO:

    Whoopsy,

    you are always talking about the 800V system as so much superior. But for my understanding it has not a huge impact on loading time. The cells have the same voltage if you use 400 or 800V. The system around the battery cells are lighter and due to less current the heating is easier to manage.

    The bottleneck is upstream of the individual cells. The cells are the end of the road for the charging process. Think tree branches. Cells are arranged in series and in parallel and then packaged into modules which in turn forms the whole battery pack. On top of the whole package is the battery controller which direct the incoming power to individual modules, which also have their own cell maintainer to distribute the incoming power to the cells. 

    Benefits of 800V system is less amperage for the same power level. Amperage is what create heat in the system. Higher voltage system is more efficient in transmitting power as there is less heat loss.

    Say to pump 250kW into the cells, 800V system only uses 312A, while on a 400V system it's 624A. That kind of amperage creates lots of heat and hence why Teslas had to throttle the current aka power very quickly to protect the modules and while the 800V system can keep pumping the same amount of power into the modules for a long time. It's how the Taycan and e-Tron GT can maintain crazy fast sustained charging speed up to very high SoC. Having a bigger top buffer also helps with he charging speed as battery cells naturally takes less charge nearing the full mark.

    Batteries needed to be warm in order to accept the highest possible power, but the charging process also creates heat which needs to be dealt with so they need to stay within a temperature window. in certain situation the benefits is small, like when the ambient temperature is cooler, the battery and cabling will take longer to reach critical temp, which will happen faster in a 400V as it generates more heat than the 800V system.  But 800V system aren't immune to thermal throttling, Kyle had showed via his videos on the throttling in both the Audi and the Taycan before. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    In Austin the wife and I experienced our first wait at a supercharger. It was only about 20 minutes waiting for a charger but we absolutely rocked the place using the cars built in karaoke system the entire time. We had an absolute blast. Lucky for your ears your were not there.  
    In short time there will be lots of new tech trying to charge faster. The new 4680 battery will address many of the known shortcomings a bit.  Personally I am more interested in battery density and cost than ultra high charge speeds. I charge 99% at level 2 at home so speed is not as important at cost and weight. I would not mind 500 miles in range and no increase in charge speed at level 3. 
    Talk to me about fast level 2 home charging (where most charging will take place) and bi directional charging and we are in business.  Imagine my car running a home for a week when the power is down. 


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    800 volts?  Why not 900 volts?

    Would an IEEE article even know what it's talking about?
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/lucid-air-500-miles-ev?


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Leawood911:

    In Austin the wife and I experienced our first wait at a supercharger. It was only about 20 minutes waiting for a charger but we absolutely rocked the place using the cars built in karaoke system the entire time. We had an absolute blast. Lucky for your ears your were not there.  
    In short time there will be lots of new tech trying to charge faster. The new 4680 battery will address many of the known shortcomings a bit.  Personally I am more interested in battery density and cost than ultra high charge speeds. I charge 99% at level 2 at home so speed is not as important at cost and weight. I would not mind 500 miles in range and no increase in charge speed at level 3. 
    Talk to me about fast level 2 home charging (where most charging will take place) and bi directional charging and we are in business.  Imagine my car running a home for a week when the power is down. 

     

    I don't eat Indian food. People should stop cooking Indian from now on then? 

    You and I are just one single data point out of millions. What you don't have use for is actually useful for million others. What I don't like to eat is regular food for billions of people. 

    A new battery can't break physics. There is a limit to how much power you can pump into battery via 400V system until it's not a good idea. As of right now even the EV leader Tesla has hit the wall already on it's 400V charging. Those 250kW advertised speed is just a peak that they can only sustained for a tiny moment, VAG products can do 250kW SUSTAINED from 0 to basically 40-50%.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Whoopsy:
    ALDO:

    Whoopsy,

    you are always talking about the 800V system as so much superior. But for my understanding it has not a huge impact on loading time. The cells have the same voltage if you use 400 or 800V. The system around the battery cells are lighter and due to less current the heating is easier to manage.

    The bottleneck is upstream of the individual cells. The cells are the end of the road for the charging process. Think tree branches. Cells are arranged in series and in parallel and then packaged into modules which in turn forms the whole battery pack. On top of the whole package is the battery controller which direct the incoming power to individual modules, which also have their own cell maintainer to distribute the incoming power to the cells. 

    Benefits of 800V system is less amperage for the same power level. Amperage is what create heat in the system. Higher voltage system is more efficient in transmitting power as there is less heat loss.

    Say to pump 250kW into the cells, 800V system only uses 312A, while on a 400V system it's 624A. That kind of amperage creates lots of heat and hence why Teslas had to throttle the current aka power very quickly to protect the modules and while the 800V system can keep pumping the same amount of power into the modules for a long time. It's how the Taycan and e-Tron GT can maintain crazy fast sustained charging speed up to very high SoC. Having a bigger top buffer also helps with he charging speed as battery cells naturally takes less charge nearing the full mark.

    Batteries needed to be warm in order to accept the highest possible power, but the charging process also creates heat which needs to be dealt with so they need to stay within a temperature window. in certain situation the benefits is small, like when the ambient temperature is cooler, the battery and cabling will take longer to reach critical temp, which will happen faster in a 400V as it generates more heat than the 800V system.  But 800V system aren't immune to thermal throttling, Kyle had showed via his videos on the throttling in both the Audi and the Taycan before. 

     

    Thnx for the detailed answer. 

    Could an external liquid cooling system help to cool down the whole system while charging.


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    In Austin the wife and I experienced our first wait at a supercharger. It was only about 20 minutes waiting for a charger but we absolutely rocked the place using the cars built in karaoke system the entire time. We had an absolute blast. Lucky for your ears your were not there.  
    In short time there will be lots of new tech trying to charge faster. The new 4680 battery will address many of the known shortcomings a bit.  Personally I am more interested in battery density and cost than ultra high charge speeds. I charge 99% at level 2 at home so speed is not as important at cost and weight. I would not mind 500 miles in range and no increase in charge speed at level 3. 
    Talk to me about fast level 2 home charging (where most charging will take place) and bi directional charging and we are in business.  Imagine my car running a home for a week when the power is down. 

     

    I don't eat Indian food. People should stop cooking Indian from now on then? 

    You and I are just one single data point out of millions. What you don't have use for is actually useful for million others. What I don't like to eat is regular food for billions of people. 

    A new battery can't break physics. There is a limit to how much power you can pump into battery via 400V system until it's not a good idea. As of right now even the EV leader Tesla has hit the wall already on it's 400V charging. Those 250kW advertised speed is just a peak that they can only sustained for a tiny moment, VAG products can do 250kW SUSTAINED from 0 to basically 40-50%.

     

    I was not disagreeing and yes the peak charging speed is momentarily available at best.  I was just sharing a fun story about the wait and that an old guys can still have fun.  
    But I disagree that we will see no more advancement in batteries or similar tech - the physics change as materials change.  I would not bet against that with everyone and every $ in hot pursuit of this tech breakthrough.  In just five short years I predict a 300 mile charge of around 10 minutes at superchargers and  L2 speeds of 100 miles per hour with a 25% weight reduction in battery mass.  
    And then there will be advances in electric propulsion in general.  There is a lot of low hanging fruit and we have never been more prepared in terms of tech and resources to make advances. 


     
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