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    Re: Tesla

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/companies/tesla-posts-record-net-income-of-dollar438-million-revenue-surges-by-74percent/ar-BB1g...

     

    $438 million profit for the quarter, but $518 million from selling credits, another $101 million from selling bitcoins. So in reality Tesla lost $181 million for the quarter. 

    10 years now, Tesla have yet to book a quarterly profit from selling cars. Every 'profitable' quarter was propped up by selling green credits. 

    The bitcoin purchase before was just a water tap for Elon to open whenever he needs some extra jolt to book his bonus. 

    Why is it so hard for Elon to figure out how to sell car for a profit? 🤔 The math isn't hard, sell a car at a price more than the cost.

    Call me crazy but I think there is some sorts of strategy behind the decision to sell the cars for "less". Remember? They were more expensive in the beginning and Tesla massively reduced prices. My guess: He wants to make it tough for the competition and I think that he may actually succeed...in a way. Time will tell. 

     

    It is. It's called government subsidies. Purpose of which is to make uncompetitive products competitive price wise. We see that everywhere, not just in the auto industries. 

    But the problem is that the government help may not last forever, and the beneficiary will need to figure out the math themselves. 

    Tesla's been reducing prices of their cars because of competition, better products coming into the market means they can't charge as much. It's simply economics. 

    It's been 10 years, how would they not figure out HOW to reduce cost? 


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    Re: Tesla

    It's worthless posting in response to his nonsense.  

    Over the past few days, I've been reading The Dictatorship of Woke Capital at the recommendation of a friend who provided financial sponsorship of the book.  I highly recommend it and much of the author's thesis is often on display here and especially on this thread.  Tesla is but one example of how the heavy-handedness of government created massive market dislocations.  

    Not one analysis, beyond your posting, has spoken about the quality of Tesla's earnings.  Hint, the earnings are not sustainable, especially as the established automakers seamlessly pivot towards producing EVs, lowering the demand for emission credits.  At one time not too long ago, analysts would write about the quality and sustainability of earnings when the focus was on creating shareholder value.  Today, under the new new rubric of stakeholder value, shareholder value is conveniently relegated to the rubbish bin for a higher purpose.  I've seen this story play out many times before with the same gut wrenching conclusion. 


    Re: Tesla

    Woke culture is getting out of control and is getting really really annoying, you can't even watch a TV show without it ruining it, Disney for example being one of the biggest offenders... 


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    Woke culture is getting out of control and is getting really really annoying, you can't even watch a TV show without it ruining it, Disney for example being one of the biggest offenders... 

    Disney, Amazon, Coca-Cola, Apple, Nike, Delta, NBA, MLB, and the list goes on and on.  However, the pendulum may starting moving in the opposite direction.  Viewership for Sunday's Oscars was the lowest recorded at 9.6 million versus a 26 million+ in 2014.  


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Woke culture is getting out of control and is getting really really annoying, you can't even watch a TV show without it ruining it, Disney for example being one of the biggest offenders... 

    Disney, Amazon, Coca-Cola, Apple, Nike, Delta, NBA, MLB, and the list goes on and on.  However, the pendulum may starting moving in the opposite direction.  Viewership for Sunday's Oscars was the lowest recorded at 9.6 million versus a 26 million+ in 2014.  

    The left can’t solve actual problems and does not want to be held accountable. So they create fake issues without any chance of being resolved but with lots of fear and opportunity to restrict freedom and gain power.  They love to battle windmills - but now they are really getting way out of control trying to divide and conquer. 


    Re: Tesla

    https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-tesla-solar-roof-price-mistakes-calculating-cost-2021-4

    It's not just in the car side of tings that Tesla is in fantasy land.

    Did any of their in house 'accountants' finished elementary math class?

    IT maybe my thing but I have an accountant background too, TSLA's number still don't add up after 10 years. 

    I am not looking or wishing them to fail, instead I would much rather see truth. lipsticks and mascara can only hide so much. Pretty sure if TSLA report everything as per industry standard and accepted principles, they would still be standing and trading, but with a much lower valuation that's more inline with what the company is. Which, the only loser would be Elon who can't meet his pay targets. 

    Most of their numbers are out there in their filings, like in every quarter they are losing money without the credits. Reporters just chose to ignore that fact and do fake news instead. 🤷🏻‍♂️

     


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    Re: Tesla

    One has posted similar statements here many times here before only to receive rebuffs from individuals with little to no business acumen.  What would I know about business other than holding a MBA from a very prominent business school, having taught graduate level courses on corporate finance and investment banking, co-founding an economic consultancy, being an investor in late stage venture, and currently heading a startup in the insurance tech space? 
     

    Tesla’s largest long-term risk factor is Musk. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    One has posted similar statements here many times here before only to receive rebuffs from individuals with little to no business acumen.  What would I know about business other than holding a MBA from a very prominent business school, having taught graduate level courses on corporate finance and investment banking, co-founding an economic consultancy, being an investor in late stage venture, and currently heading a startup in the insurance tech space? 
     

    Tesla’s largest long-term risk factor is Musk. 

    It started my first business in the computer industry right after college.  Everyone in my family going back to my great grandfather owned their own business.   One simple thing I learned in school is those who can’t learn teach. 
    Did you every year Elon’s thoughts about people with MBAs?  Hilarious. This is most likely why Tesla is so successful.  Fact is everyone in business school would love to run a company so successfully. That you don’t think they are doing well does not cause me to be impressed by your credentials. Quite the opposite. In fact. 
    But hey, at least you did not launch a direct personal attack. 

    That Elon is their biggest risk is an amazing assessment. Where exactly would they be today without him?  Just want your opinion on that one. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    One has posted similar statements here many times here before only to receive rebuffs from individuals with little to no business acumen.  What would I know about business other than holding a MBA from a very prominent business school, having taught graduate level courses on corporate finance and investment banking, co-founding an economic consultancy, being an investor in late stage venture, and currently heading a startup in the insurance tech space? 
     

    Tesla’s largest long-term risk factor is Musk. 

    It started my first business in the computer industry right after college.  Everyone in my family going back to my great grandfather owned their own business.   One simple thing I learned in school is those who can’t learn teach. 
    Did you every year Elon’s thoughts about people with MBAs?  Hilarious. This is most likely why Tesla is so successful.  Fact is everyone in business school would love to run a company so successfully. That you don’t think they are doing well does not cause me to be impressed by your credentials. Quite the opposite. In fact. 
    But hey, at least you did not launch a direct personal attack. 

    That Elon is their biggest risk is an amazing assessment. Where exactly would they be today without him?  Just want your opinion on that one. 

     

    He and I might share a simile view. 

    What's taught in schools sometimes are out of touch with the real world. yes they can 'case studies', but those are being taught en mass and became routine, people who can think outside of the box at times are better. Elon, well, he is way outside the known universe, not just the box. 


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    Re: Tesla

    So I guess you watched The Falcon and The Winter Soldier? Smiley More woke isn't possible.

    We were so happy that Disney+ started new Star Wars and Marvel content, my kids are huge fans, so am I.

    The Mandalorian (Star Wars) was a gem, the following Wandavision (Marvel) was also amazing and surprising.

    We had high expectations for The Falcon and The Winter Soldier and while the actors delivered, the story was weak and...woke. If Disney+ continues with how they left The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, they will loose viewers. I'm not talking about a (spoiler alert!!!) black Captain America, I can accept this, why wouldn't I?! I am talking about everything else which was way too political and biased for a tv show which is supposed to be good old fashioned entertainment and fun.

    I guess the entertainment industry gives people what they (think) they want. Or they try to make a change and/or statement. I get it but when a SciFi show with tradition gets political and woke (oh god do I hate this word), it gets annoying. 

    I enjoyed Iglesias on Netflix much more than The Falcon and The Winter Soldier on Disney+. Iglesias had some political stuff as well but in a way that it is part of the show, not actually trying to make a point at the expense of the storyline.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was over the top woke, ruined it for me, don't think we will be watching the second season, there is no reason or need to force feed their wokeness on things like that, you want to be woke? fine, but don't try to impose it onto others everywhere like in scifi shows that have nothing to do with it. It only makes matters worse, it takes things that weren't a problem and interprets then in a bad way and makes them a problem now. 

    Loved the Mandalorian, but one of the best characters for me was the one played by Gina Carano, a strong female roll who kicks ass and is not a princess in distress, great roll model for young girls like my daughter. Well, Disney fired her and cancelled her completely for posting pro Trump tweets and the like (tweets I personally don't agree with but its her right), which the woke culture at Disney found over the top, and erased her, cancel culture at its best. The actress who played Mulan tweeted in favor of China's repression on Taiwan, and it's not a problem, were don't want to piss off the criminal CPP nor Disney's expansion into China, but Gina's tweets? no, that is unforgivable.


    Re: Tesla

    The world is upside down. Anyone who points out the obvious is censored.  The conspiracy theory joke or comeback is getting ironic. 


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was over the top woke, ruined it for me, don't think we will be watching the second season, there is no reason or need to force feed their wokeness on things like that, you want to be woke? fine, but don't try to impose it onto others everywhere like in scifi shows that have nothing to do with it. It only makes matters worse, it takes things that weren't a problem and interprets then in a bad way and makes them a problem now. 

    I do not think there is/was supposed to be a second season. I think these short Marvel tv shows are more of some sorts of warmup for the upcoming movies. I agree, way too political for an entertainment show.

    Loved the Mandalorian, but one of the best characters for me was the one played by Gina Carano, a strong female roll who kicks ass and is not a princess in distress, great roll model for young girls like my daughter. Well, Disney fired her and cancelled her completely for posting pro Trump tweets and the like (tweets I personally don't agree with but its her right), which the woke culture at Disney found over the top, and erased her, cancel culture at its best. The actress who played Mulan tweeted in favor of China's repression on Taiwan, and it's not a problem, were don't want to piss off the criminal CPP nor Disney's expansion into China, but Gina's tweets? no, that is unforgivable.

    I agree regarding the double standards here but Gina Carano didn't only re-post Trump tweets or had a certain conservative mindset, she wrote that being a Republican today was akin to being Jewish in the time leading up to the Holocaust. This is just over the top and she has been warned before, this wasn't the first time she posted inappropriate stuff, including her mask wearing conspiracy tweets, which were completely out of line as well.

    Gina Carano signed a contract and knowing Disney for decades now, I bet there was some sorts of clause in the contract which demands a certain "appearance" from her in public, including what she says and what she does. She is free to do what she wants but violating a contract she signed is a clear no go. So she was fired and probably lost millions in income because Disney had planned lots of stuff for her, which never happened and will now never happened. Also, she is pretty much too toxic for Hollywood now, she is burned, she is done. Not very clever if you ask me.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    The world is upside down. Anyone who points out the obvious is censored.  The conspiracy theory joke or comeback is getting ironic. 

    Seriously? Republicans supporting Trump are comparable to Jews in the time leading to the Holocaust? Smiley

    COVID-19 is harmless and masks wearing is mandated for political reasons?

    C'mon, you can do better.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    RC:
    Leawood911:

    The world is upside down. Anyone who points out the obvious is censored.  The conspiracy theory joke or comeback is getting ironic. 

    Seriously? Republicans supporting Trump are comparable to Jews in the time leading to the Holocaust? Smiley

    COVID-19 is harmless and masks wearing is mandated for political reasons?

    C'mon, you can do better.

    I did not use these examples.  Rather than your words in my mouth how about - raise taxes, defund the police, all whites are racist, guaranteed income, open borders, legal drugs for all, free college.  If you don’t think the world is a bit upside down?  Do you want your children to inherit these values?  I prefer hard work and responsibility which includes self reliance. 
    The problem is not that Disney could fire her legally because of a clause in her contract. The problem is that they have a clause which punishes political speech in the first place. 
    And in a very real sense - on some level - there is certainly a racist undercurrent with a strong bias against being a white or black conservative.  Bias takes many shapes and is ugly in every form.  Sadly the left has always leaned in that direction and in this case it is actually right out in the open. Anytime they think it is allowed or popular they tend to not realize what their actions look like from the outside. I really don’t think they can help themselves but bias is bias. It is weird you don’t see there are many valid types of bias. Not all are comparable and I’m a little pissed that you pretend I equated the Jewish horror to this.   Sadly the media attacks and unwarranted hate have destroyed families, marriages, workplaces and lives all over the place over politics and lies. Some still believe Trump suggested people drink bleach - that is how far out the stories were.  To say nothing of how effective he actually was as a president and in mobilizing the fight against  covid.  Ever imagine that f Hillary or Biden were presented with this problem. First cause of action would be to see how they. An use this to gain more power and eliminate freedom. See what is going on in Canada and now in the US.  I got a stimulus check under Trump. None after that yet the giveaway goes on. People can even be bothered to divide the trillions by 350 million so see how much person is being stolen by these jokers. 


    Re: Tesla

    Can we continue this politics talk in the appropriate forum please? Makes more sense.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    RC:

    Can we continue this politics talk in the appropriate forum please? Makes more sense.

    I’m so sorry. Seriously got carried away. Back to the fun. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    RC:

    Can we continue this politics talk in the appropriate forum please? Makes more sense.

    I’m so sorry. Seriously got carried away. Back to the fun. 

    Don't worry, I know the feeling. Smiley Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Western Europe market shares...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif


    Re: Tesla

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Western Europe market shares...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Have you shorted TSLA now?


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    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Tesla

    bluelines:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Western Europe market shares...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Have you shorted TSLA now?

    Ironically, the most notable recent TesIa share sales have been by management insiders, including the Chair, CFO and family...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Detailed insider trading at TesIa, Inc...  BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif

    Trade Date    Insider Name                           Trade Type        Shares          Price ($)      Value ($)
    2021-04-26    Denholm Robyn M (Director)    Sale                    62,500           741.12        46,319,812
    2021-04-26    Denholm Robyn M (Director)    Option Ex           62,500              52.38         3,273,750
    2021-04-19    Kirkhorn Zachary (CFO)           Sale                      1,250             718.00           897,500
    2021-04-12    Guillen Jerome M (President, Heavy Trucking)    Sale    10,000    695.04    6,950,430
    2021-04-12    Guillen Jerome M (President, Heavy Trucking)    Option Ex    10,000    55.32    553,200
    2021-04-05    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Sale    4,453    697.02    3,103,816
    2021-04-05    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Option Ex    4,090    54.99    224,909
    2021-03-29    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    1,500    615.75    923,625
    2021-03-29    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    1,000    41.57    41,570
    2021-03-17    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Sale    1,250    655.81    819,762
    2021-03-10    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automative)    Sale    10,000    698.05    6,852,840
    2021-03-10    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automative)    Option Ex    10,000    55.32    553,200
    2021-03-08    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    897    595.08    533,786
    2021-03-08    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Sale    2,818    595.08    1,676,935
    2021-03-08    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Sale    1,844    595.08    1,097,327
    2021-03-08    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automotive)    Sale    609    595.08    362,403
    2021-03-05    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    1,785    .00    0
    2021-03-05    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Option Ex    6,295    .00    0
    2021-03-05    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Option Ex    3,667    .00    0
    2021-03-05    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automotive)    Option Ex    1,211    .00    0
    2021-03-01    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    1,500    690.11    1,035,165
    2021-03-01    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    1,000    41.57    41,570
    2021-02-17    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Sale    1,250    778.17    972,712
    2021-02-10    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    4,000    807.88    3,231,540
    2021-02-10    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    4,000    51.64    206,560
    2021-02-10    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automotive)    Sale    10,000    822.93    8,229,299
    2021-02-10    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automotive)    Option Ex    10,000    55.32    553,200
    2021-02-09    Gracias Antonio J. (Director)    Sale    150,747    846.41    127,593,165
    2021-02-09    Musk Kimbal (Director)    Sale    30,000    853.59    25,607,760
    2021-02-08    Gracias Antonio J. (Director)    Option Ex    150,747    60.47    9,115,671
    2021-01-27    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    1,500    870.35    1,305,525
    2021-01-27    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    1,000    41.57    41,570
    2021-01-19    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Sale    1,250    837.74    1,047,175
    2021-01-11    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automative)    Sale    10,000    831.92    8,319,160
    2021-01-11    Guillen Jerome M (President, Automative)    Option Ex    10,000    55.32    553,200
    2021-01-06    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Sale    4,463    762.12    3,401,323
    2021-01-06    Taneja Vaibhav (Chief Accounting Officer)    Option Ex    4,100    54.99    225,459
    2020-12-31    Wilson-thompson Kathleen (Director)    Sale    13,885    697.58    9,685,953
    2020-12-31    Wilson-thompson Kathleen (Director)    Option Ex    13,885    44.95    624,130
    2020-12-28    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Sale    1,500    674.68    1,012,019
    2020-12-28    Baglino Andrew D (SVP Powertrain and Energy Eng.)    Option Ex    1,000    41.57    41,570
    2020-12-17    Kirkhorn Zachary (Chief Financial Officer)    Sale    1,250    628.59    785,737

    FC4C8159-4D30-495B-B38C-995CA0BF6671.jpeg

    ...so what do these insiders know about TesIa’s future prospects? Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    This means they all know Tesla is a fraud and going out of business. The VW board must be elated that they are finally going out of business like everyone smart knows they would.

    Perhaps they saw their families could live well for generations if they took a portion of their gains and diversify?  Or maybe they got to buy SpaceX shares. Lol.  

    When insiders sell Microsoft or Amazon shares do people breathlessly ponder their demise?  I wonder? 
     

     


    Re: Tesla

    Ford made a Q1 profit of 3.3 billion from an adjusted pretax profit of 4.8 billion. All of that old ICE infrastructure seems to still have a bit of life left in it.

    It should be very interesting to see how they compete with Tesla as they move more of their product line over to electric drivetrain.


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    This means they all know Tesla is a fraud and going out of business. The VW board must be elated that they are finally going out of business like everyone smart knows they would.

    Perhaps they saw their families could live well for generations if they took a portion of their gains and diversify?  Or maybe they got to buy SpaceX shares. Lol.  

    When insiders sell Microsoft or Amazon shares do people breathlessly ponder their demise?  I wonder? 

    It may well be rational behaviour for management insiders to sell TesIa stock at the earliest opportunity — regardless of their view on the future prospects of the company — but you are right to point out that the alleged possibility of fraud does somewhat increase their incentive to sell before the SEC accounting investigation is publicly announced...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Indeed, you are right to question where have we seen this story of corporate insiders selling aggressively before a fall...  BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif

    ENRON'S COLLAPSE: “Before Debacle, Enron Insiders Cashed In $1.1 Billion in Shares”

    (13 January 2002)

    ENRON'S COLLAPSE

    While investigators are focusing on how much money investors and employees lost in the Enron Corporation's collapse, some shareholders and lawmakers are now setting their sights on another target: the millions that Enron insiders received by selling their shares while the price was still high.

    As Enron stock climbed and Wall Street was still promoting it, a group of 29 Enron executives and directors began to sell their shares. These insiders received $1.1 billion by selling 17.3 million shares from 1999 through mid-2001, according to court filings based on public records. They continued selling just before Enron's stock started to tumble early last year and the company began its slide into bankruptcy protection.

    One of the biggest sellers was Kenneth L. Lay, who became prominent as the company's chairman and a leading contributor to President Bush. He was among more than a dozen Enron executives who received $30 million or more, including one who sold shares valued at $353.7 million.

    Lawyers and spokesmen for the executives, board members and the company said that the sales were proper, and that the insiders had no special information or advantages over other investors.

    ''This issue is being investigated,'' said Robert S. Bennett, a lawyer for Enron. ''But at this point in time, I am unaware of any evidence that supports the allegation there was improper selling by members of the board or senior management.''

    Many of these Enron executives retain large holdings in the company, selling shares regularly, as executives at other companies do. ''In many instances, the sale of the stock was preplanned according to a strict timetable,'' Mr. Bennett said.

    Mr. Lay himself sold Enron stock 350 times, trading almost daily, receiving $101.3 million. In all, Mr. Lay sold 1.8 million Enron shares between early 1999 and July 2001, five months before Enron filed for bankruptcy. As of last February, he still owned more than 7.7 million shares.

    Mr. Lay sold his stock for $31 to $86 a share; this week, Enron was selling for under 70 cents a share. Often, Mr. Lay sold in amounts as small as 500 shares, while at other times he sold as many as 100,000 shares.

    It has not been determined how much Mr. Lay or the others paid for their shares, or how much they gained. Much of Mr. Lay's holdings, and those of other executives, were in the form of stock options, which allowed them to buy shares at a discount.

    Other top sellers were Lou L. Pai, the former chairman of an Enron subsidiary, who received $353.7 million for his 5 million shares; Rebecca P. Mark-Jusbasche, a director and former Enron executive who received $79.5 million for 1.4 million shares; and Ken L. Harrison, a director who sold 1 million shares for $75.2 million.

    Jeffrey K. Skilling, the company's former chief executive, received $66.9 million for 1.1 million shares. Beginning in December 2000, Mr. Skilling began to sell his holdings at a pace of 10,000 shares about every seven days. He still owns about 600,000 shares and options, according to public filings.

    Andrew S. Fastow, the company's ousted chief financial officer, who set up many of the financial partnerships that have been criticized for concealing Enron's large debts, received $30 million for his holdings.

    A detailed accounting of these trades is contained in a lawsuit brought by Amalgamated Bank, of New York, which invested the pension money of union members in Enron shares. Representing the bank in this case, which is now in the Federal District Court in Houston, is the same law firm that brought shareholder suits against Charles H. Keating Jr. in the savings and loan scandal and against Michael R. Milken, the junk bond financier, for securities fraud.

    While the suit has received little attention so far, it highlights one of the main points in the political debate now taking place in Washington -- whether small shareholders were left out of a flow of information about Enron's deteriorating financial condition.

    The differences in the trading strategies of the two groups -- those outside the company who were buying Enron's shares and those inside the company who were selling them -- reflect the different information that each group had, according to the suit.

    ''The defendants employed devices, schemes and artifices to defraud,'' the lawsuit states. It accuses the 29 defendants of ''unlawful insider trading'' and says the group ''materially misled the investing public'' by issuing false statements.

    Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut and chairman of the Senate government affairs committee, has already announced hearings that will, in part, look at how Enron shareholders might have been deceived by the company's financial statements. Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California, has also expressed concern for Enron's small shareholders, especially employees who put its shares in their 401(k) retirement plans only to lose their savings.

    Representative Henry A. Waxman of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Commerce Committee, released a letter yesterday asking Mr. Lay to answer questions about optimistic statements Mr. Waxman said that Mr. Lay had made in e-mail messages to employees last August. In the e-mail, gathered by staff investigators, Mr. Lay said that Enron remained strong.

    At Enron, more than half of the employees' 401(k) assets, or about $1.2 billion, was invested in company stock, which is now nearly worthless. Billions more were lost by other investors, from individuals to large institutions that bought Enron shares for the pension plans of unions and corporations.

    The lawsuit claims the insiders withheld information, allowing Enron's shares to remain at an artificially high level while they were selling their shares. ''This is the most massive insider bailout that we've ever seen and we've been prosecuting these cases for 30 years,'' said William S. Lerach, one of the bank's lead attorneys. ''The overall size of this case is unprecedented.''

    Spokesmen for some of the defendants say that this group had done nothing wrong. An Enron spokesman, Mark Palmer, dismissed the suit as ''completely without merit'' and a ''weak argument.''

    Gordon G. Andrew, a spokesman for Mr. Fastow, the former chief financial officer, declined to comment, but said that Mr. Fastow still had about 50 percent of his original holdings. Mr. Andrew said that Mr. Fastow's last stock sale took place in November 2000 and that Mr. Fastow had purchased shares in early 2001.

    A spokeswoman for Mr. Skilling, the former chief executive, said that ''there is absolutely no basis to the allegation that Mr. Skilling did anything improper with regard to the sale of Enron stock.'' The defendants have not yet filed answers to the complaint. Arthur Andersen & Company, also named, declined to comment.

    At the top end of the selling was Mr. Pai, who headed an Enron subsidiary called NewPower Holdings, an online retailer of electricity and natural gas. Before leaving Enron last spring, Mr. Pai sold five million shares of Enron between January 1999 and July 2001 for $353.7 million.

    In January 2000, just 60 days after the formation of NewPower, Mr. Pai received more than two million Enron shares. He began to sell them almost immediately, mostly while they were trading above $70.

    Enron directors, also named in the case, sold stock too. All Enron directors receive stock options as part of their $380,619 annual fees. Of that, 15 percent was paid in cash, the remainder in stock.

    One director, Wendy L. Gramm, the wife of Senator Phil Gramm, Republican of Texas, sold all her 10,256 shares for $276,912. She sold the stock on one day -- Nov. 3, 1998 -- for $27 a share. Ms. Gramm said earlier that she and her husband decided to sell their Enron shares to avoid the appearance of a conflict. She was then paid in cash.

    The Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department are both investigating Enron. A Senate committee issued 51 subpoenas Friday as part of an investigation into the insiders' stock sales.

    The investigations should aid the case against the insiders, said Michael Hennigan, a Los Angeles lawyer in the Orange County, Calif., bankruptcy lawsuit. ''I assume that the government is going after the exact same things that Lerach is after,'' he said, referring to the lawyer for the bank suing Enron.

    Last week, a federal judge declined to immediately freeze the assets of the defendants, asking for further information before reconsidering the request.

    [Source: New York Times


    Re: Tesla

    I've seen the evidence of several accounting related cases around that time including Global Crossings, WorldCom, and Enron.  Red flags include opaqueness in financial reporting and turnover in key executive positions.  Arthur Andersen was at the center of several of these accounting scandals and that once great audit firm developed multiple accounting treatments for the same type of transaction depending on the client.  One area was centralized on income recognition and round turn transactions of dark cable.  


    Re: Tesla

    On the other hand.  While these are all valid horror stories.  One should ask - did these insiders sell all their stock or just a part of it to diversify like smart investors???  You can also ask what was their original basis and how many opportunities have they passed up???  What fraction of shares, for example, did Elon’s brother sell?  Is he not the ultimate insider? If the story indicated he sold 10% of his shares does it sound different?  Do you think serious stock analysts look at these little gems of detail?  Or do they read about Enron when when they read about Tesla stock sales by insiders?
    Imagine for second that you had lots of shares and you wanted to diversify without impacting the value of your remaining shares adversely. You would wait until the company is in an unquestionably strong enough position so that the sale of your shares don’t end up costing you more than that $$ in value of remaining shares.  This may be indeed an indication that the company is mature and successful enough to not let some insider stock sales impact value. Hmmmm.  
    Funny but not surprising they did not mention the percentage of stock they sold out of their holdings.  

    So - unless you can show me these insiders have sold all their shares or are leaving the company for greener pastures because the ship is sinking I would at least consider that the glass might be half full. Ya think that’s possible?
    Cheers guys!

    and Gladstone is correct. Ford is doing very well and their EV future is just looking very competitive. Good call. 


    Re: Tesla

    Must also consider if they are anticipating capital gains tax increases…


    Re: Tesla

    mcdelaug:

    Must also consider if they are anticipating capital gains tax increases…

    Bravo. 
    btw Elon is now eligible for 32 billion more in stock. 


    Re: Tesla

    Next generation Tesla autopilot in testing indecision Night-time splashdown for four astronauts:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-56962932

    Congrats to Musk and SpaceX wink


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Tesla

    The Frankfurter Allgmeine posts an article on How to Bet Against Tesla.  

    Here's the link to the article, in German: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/die-boerse-und-die-tesla-aktie-so-wetten-sie-gegen-elon-musk-17317989.html#lesermeinungen 

    Google Translate provides a passable translation of the article.


     
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