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    I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on



    Updated:2006-01-31 11:41:38
    Star Wars Speed Trap
    GPS being used to catch speeders
    By ERIC PETERS


    Like tearing off that sticker on mattresses that warns us not to "under penalty of law," most of us don't pay much attention to speed limits. Five to 10 over is the rule, not the exception -- as any survey of average traffic speeds will confirm. We vote with our right foot every time we get behind the wheel, countermanding the diktats of the local bureaucrats who erect limits that are frequently well below what large majorities (better than 85 percent, if you want an actual figure based on traffic surveys) consider reasonable rates of travel.


    But what if driving faster than the posted limit became an impossibility?


    For years, this has been "The Dream" of safety-badger types, who equate any deviance from often arbitrarily-set posted speed limits with mowing down small children in a gigantic SUV with really loud mufflers, one hand on the wheel, the other clutching a half-empty fifth of Jack Daniels. They pushed for mechanical governors (which never flew) and even managed, briefly, to get a law passed that required all new cars to be fitted with speedometers that read no faster than 85 mph.


    Now, however, the technology exists for a great leap forward -- or backward, depending on your point of view.


    The Canadians are testing out a system that combines onboard Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) technology with a digital speed limit map. It works very much like the in-car GPS navigation systems which have become so common on late model cars -- but with a twist. Instead of helping you find a destination, the system, prevents you from driving any faster than the posted speed limit of the road you happen to be on.


    As in a conventional GPS-equipped car or truck, the system knows which road you're on, as well as the direction you're traveling. This information is continuously updating as you move. But in addition to this, the system also acquires information about the posted speed limit on each road, as you drive. Once your vehicle reaches that limit, the car's computer makes it increasingly difficult to go any faster.


    Ten vehicles equipped with this technology are currently being tested in the Ottowa area; if the trail is "successful," a wider series of tests is planned. And it's a sure bet the entire thing will eventually be the object of a very strong-armed push aimed at making it mandatory equipment in every new car. "We are trying to assess the operational acceptance issues," says Peter Burns of Transport Canada's road safety directorate.


    But is all of this really necessary -- or even a good idea?


    For one thing, if current speed limits are so sensible, why do so many of us disobey them routinely? Are large majorities of us simply indifferent to our own safety and that of others -- even though we seem capable of behaving responsibly in other aspects of our lives?


    Or are speed limits often set unrealistically low?


    And if they are, wouldn't it make more sense to adjust them so that they reflect a more reasonable consensus -- based upon how we actually drive -- rather than constantly pushing for new ways to compel compliance with limits that most of us clearly think are too low?


    Bear in mind that for 20-plus years, we were relentlessly nagged by the self-styled "safety lobby" (and its profiteers in the insurance industry) that to exceed the sainted 55 mph limit was "dangerous speeding" that put ourselves and others at risk. Yet when Congress finally repealed the 55 mph limit in '95 -- and most states raised their highway limits to 65, 70, even 75 mph in some cases -- highway fatality rates did not increase as predicted. In fact, just two years after the majority of states increased their maximum highway speed limits, the total national highway fatality rate reached an all-time record low of 1.64 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (VMT).


    This proved that driving 65 or 70-something mph on a highway was not "unsafe." The big difference post-'95 was that you no longer had to worry about getting a ticket for doing it.


    The same issue exists on many secondary roads, where under-posted limits are routinely ignored by most drivers -- but vigorously enforced by radar traps. Like the tickets issued to people under the double nickel, the use of radar to nab motorists exceeding these under-posted limits is justified on the basis of "safety" -- even though most of us know that driving five or 10 mph faster doesn't in and of itself constitute unsafe driving any more than doing 65 or 70-something mph did under the old 55 mph NMSL.


    And sometimes, it's necessary to accelerate rapidly in order to avoid an accident -- even if it means momentarily exceeding the posted limit.


    But Canada's little experiment could bring a screeching halt to all that -- literally. Dumbed-down limits -- and dumbed-down driving -- would become much more than the law of the land.


    They would become an inescapable way of life.


    Some might welcome a world in which driving faster than whatever the speed limit happens to be is impossibility. But it might be more common-sensical to post realistic speed limits -- and deal with the handful of drivers who won't or can't drive reasonably -- than to treat every driver on the road like the irresponsible one.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Thanks for posting this Nick. I think that I would hunt down any congressman that would pass this and harass them until they came to their senses. I know that we as gearheads will disagree on most topics, but this one we would unite to let congress know that they have stepped out of bounds. This will end their political career quicker than Monica Lewinski with a fresh cigar.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Thanks Nick,

    I remember a few months ago when someone else posted here on rennteam about the same issue-I think it was being proposed in the UK.

    Indeed, a closer look at safety studies with speed limits in the USA has revealed that within the confines of driving on American highways, it is not the absolute speed that correlates with crash rates BUT rather relative speed of drivers, so that with a 55mph limit, there is the potential for greater stadard deviation with drivers going at, say 75+mph, versus those same drivers against a limit of 65mph. This makes sense since with greater relative speed differences, vehicles won't run uniformly on a given thoroughfare.

    But in the end, I suspect that, at least in the USA, governments will likely NOT implement this GPS-based vehicle speed control program, because too many municipalities rely on revenues from speeding tickets to finance their budgets.

    Thanks for making us aware of this just to our north. I'll phone my congressman if this idea pops up in my area

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Not too worried re: this alleged heightened speed enfcmt stuff....

    Even 20-30 yrs ago, police could have easily doled out tickets based on one's speed btwn toll booths on, for ex NJ Tpke or Chic's various tollways, simply based on time elapsed btwn entry-exit....

    Had 55MPH speed lims on SF/LA fwys in early '90s...I suspect traffic flow today on SF's 280 or LA's 73 in rush hr is comfortably well above 75MPH (but for some reason haven't seen articles written about the fast traffic flow on the economically relev fwys btwn SF-SilicVy or in the NwptCoast tech corridor ).....

    In NYC region, silly front plate laws are sometimes enforced on F/P at various bridge/tunnel crossings (shouldn't they be looking for more dangerous vehicles??? )....yet my pals in Greenwich tell me they have various, shall we say, non-radar detector-related ways to enjoy their cars on Merritt/684 w/o being bothered by police; also sounds like affluent guys in London have similar approaches to enjoy their cars, despite even more supposedly onerous speed enfcmt.....

    In sum, don't know a time in US/world history when we've had so many outstandingly well-balanced high-performance cars available for so little money (w/$0 dwn leases no less) and w/relatively fair speed enfcmt in key urban regions of US ....

    Just ask any elder statesmen what life was like in early '80s-early '90s in terms of cars' performance capabs (N-ring times, 0-100-0, etc of old cars are laughable)/safety/daily useability (pre-stab ctrls, first oil change at 20K mis)/cost/interest rates and ability to enjoy them in an era of 55MPH sp lims.....

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Nick, that system was developed by Birmingham University of England.

    Variations of it are being touted by all sorts of revenue minded government agencies and the IT consulting companies that would do the actual systems implmentation and systems operations.

    Its being beta tested by insurance companies and their customers in the UK and in Florida in the US.

    Insurance companies will be offering it to customers as a an inducement for reduced rates. Not just as a way to reduce speeding but also as a way to manage customer mileage and ratings for that.

    It is also the current celebrity tool of discussion for road use taxes. Example: Oregon is collecting less gas tax revenue because the general mpg rate has gone up. So they are thinking of implementing a GPS system road use tax rated upon mileage driven to augment licensing and gas taxes.

    Urban planning groups see it as a tool to control city congestion and add revenue via urban road use taxation.

    Discussion of it is in vogue with social engineering and tax loving elements in government planning circles in the US, Canada and the UK.

    Wonderful.







    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    I failed to mention this would not be an issue for me given my driving habits and abilities.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I failed to mention this would not be an issue for me given my driving habits and abilities.



    You mean you drive like a senior citizen?

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    One more reason to drive older cars that have none of the electronic crap...

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    nberry said:


    In fact, just two years after the majority of states increased their maximum highway speed limits, the total national highway fatality rate reached an all-time record low of 1.64 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled (VMT).





    If memory serves me correctly fatality rate in Germany is just the half (or maybe even less) of the US rate.

    Still 2/3 of the autobahn system is without any speedlimit.
    Though I would not use the statistic to come up with any simplicistic conclusions (like the faster you go the safer you drive ), I am convinced that a relative high speed helps to focus on driving rather than to distract yourself by eating, drinking, making phone calls or other IMO not driving compatible activities having become just too common today.

    Having said that, the perceived speed in most modern cars sometimes is way too low compared to the actual speed due to the fact that a lot of cars just insulate the driver far too much from the environment. This is especially true for modern luxury sedans like Merc S or BMW 7 series: 200 km/h or even more just feels like a moderate cruising speed. Get yourself into a 20 years old car and you see the difference.

    Just another good reason to drive a sportscar, supporting a more realistic perception of speed (more visceral drivefeel, throatier exhaust sound etc.)

    BTW I read an interview with Walter Röhrl a couple of weeks ago, where he said, that while driving on autobahn and federal roads he never would allow his wife to talk to him while he focusses on driving On the other hand he never would drive in the city taking the passenger seat himself and letting the wifey drive.

    Bottomline: todays common overregulation is good for bureaucrats to rectify their existence but will not help to make traffic safer. Proof of that is an experiment in a dutch village (I forgot the name), where ALL roadsigns, roadlights etc. have been removed resulting in way lower accident rates.

    Permanent surveillance via GPS sounds like a plain fascist idea to me (not only due to speedlimit enforcement).

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    BTW I read an interview with Walter Röhrl a couple of weeks ago, where he said, that while driving on autobahn and federal roads he never would allow his wife to talk to him while he focusses on driving On the other hand he never would drive in the city taking the passenger seat himself and letting the wifey drive.




    He's not alone.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    If memory serves me correctly fatality rate in Germany is just the half (or maybe even less) of the US rate.



    The last time I looked at the statistics, the fatality rate per driver mile has been nearly the same (+/- 10%) for the last 10 or 15 years on the autobahn and the US Interstate highway system. The speeds make no difference at all.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    The last time I looked at the statistics, the fatality rate per driver mile has been nearly the same (+/- 10%) for the last 10 or 15 years on the autobahn and the US Interstate highway system. The speeds make no difference at all.



    I agree with you, that the speeds don't make any difference.
    But the bureaucrats use this wrong assumption to rectify speed limits. Actually the majority of fatal accidents does not happen on autobahn, but cities and minor roads. I guess this would be true for the US also. And so I believe you're right with the interstate/autobahn comparison.

    I've no detailed statistic, but just the overall numbers:

    Country Population Traffic Fatalities
    US 297.7 m 42,636
    GY 82.5 m 5,842

    These figures refer to 2004 and do not consider correlations like driven miles, number of cars etc. nor where the accidents happened (Highway/city etc.)

    But I'm sure the majority of fatal accidents are not high-speed crashes, but happen due to other human errors or bad practice (55% of all US drivers/passengers killed in cars did not use the safetybelt )

    BTW fatality rate in German traffic has been significantly higher some 25 years ago (15,207 people in 1980).

    Enjoy your awesome CGT and drive her fast and safe

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I failed to mention this would not be an issue for me given my driving habits and abilities.



    You mean you drive like a senior citizen?



    That is exactly what I meant. Monitoring would not impact me a bit.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    ....ALl this very interesting, but can the US police afford to have not ONE speeding ticket issued?

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    I don't think this will ever happen.

    I would think that the most likely is an automatic fine every time you go over the limit. A government who brought this system in would stand all over personal liberties and not last that long - it would be political suicide.

    They want to bring this into the UK but I doubt it will happen. My view (having worked freelance for the governments Home Office in the UK before) is that civil servants and public sector managers in general try to out-do each other every year to make their mark, gain more recognition and increase budgets. Rarely do their mad-cap ideas make sense. Driving is dangerous, full stop and driver education is the most effective way to reduce road injuries and deaths.

    Almost anyone can get a license in the UK and the level of driving - particuarly in major cities is attrocious. Many of the people are within the speed limits but totally idiotic with their driving.

    If they try to do this in the UK I'm moving abroad.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    I think the money would be better spent in the US by retraining all the drivers. We have a very lax driver training system here, if you can breathm, you can get a license. I would love to see a much tougher system that would make us all better drivers. I do not think this will ever happen though. I think the smart thing to do is start training the new drivers in a much more extensive program so they know how to handle a car in emergencys. I see mommys running down the highway talking on their cellphones doing 80-90 mph in these big SUVs. What they don't realize is that they do not know how to properly avoid an obstacle with out rolling over.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    I see mommys running down the highway talking on their cellphones doing 80-90 mph in these big SUVs. What they don't realize is that they do not know how to properly avoid an obstacle with out rolling over.



    The numbers seem to strongly support your view: 25% of fatal accidents are caused by SUVs rolling over (maybe there is an overlap with the 55% not using the seatbelt, because soccer mom may feel like sitting in a living-room).
    Even with proper training SUVs might still play a key role in accidents, because IMO SUVs offer a lot of amenities (lot of room etc.), but are a misconception from a technical perspective (high curb weight + high center of mass + powerful engine/high speed + longer braking distance = sacrifice of safety), but that's another thread and maybe it's just me Of course it's always not really fair to generalise - I'm not an experienced SUV driver, but I'm sure there is a big difference driving a Ford Explorer (didn't like the experience as a passenger) compared to a Cayenne

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    ....ALl this very interesting, but can the US police afford to have not ONE speeding ticket issued?



    Yes,

    That was exactly my point, that the US would never implement a GPS-based vehicle control system, simply because too many municipalities use speeding ticket revenues for their spending. A local town a half hour south of where I live in upstate New York earns tons of money by parking a patrol car by the road leading to the local ski resort, and since most of the access road has wide-open driving with 55mph limits, but for a quarter mile stretch of the road through the dinky little town when the limit drops to 35mph, an unaware driver who drives by at even 51mph (16 magical mph over the limit) gets clocked for the 6-point fine.

    When I have asked my police friends in my town why they don't enforce the cell phone laws in New York State (it is illegal to drive in this state while speaking on a hand-held cell phone), they "yawn" and say there is no "social" and "financial" reason to. When I point out that the cell phone issue is more a safety issue than is the speed issue, they don't have a response.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Steve R said:
    I don't think this will ever happen.

    I would think that the most likely is an automatic fine every time you go over the limit. A government who brought this system in would stand all over personal liberties and not last that long - it would be political suicide.

    They want to bring this into the UK but I doubt it will happen. My view (having worked freelance for the governments Home Office in the UK before) is that civil servants and public sector managers in general try to out-do each other every year to make their mark, gain more recognition and increase budgets. Rarely do their mad-cap ideas make sense. Driving is dangerous, full stop and driver education is the most effective way to reduce road injuries and deaths.

    Almost anyone can get a license in the UK and the level of driving - particuarly in major cities is attrocious. Many of the people are within the speed limits but totally idiotic with their driving.

    If they try to do this in the UK I'm moving abroad.



    I could have written your post, it's like a mirror image on this side of the pond. In my area, the two car crashes I almost experienced last summer with my new 996TTS involved other drivers on their cell phones nearly plowing into me.

    In one instance, I was driving into the parking lot of our local athletic club when another driver was pulling out, I looked right at him as he was looking down at his phone (pressing the buttons presumably to "dial" a number), no hands on the steering wheel, but foot on the throttle coming at me. Fortunately, my 996TTS had good accel. and I launched to the left into the lot to avoid him.

    In the second instance, another driver and I were coming off the expressway on a dual exit ramp, she was in a big Ford Expedition, chatting away on her phone, and she suddenly decided to change lanes (she wanted to turn left off the exit over the overpass), I was lucky I was looking up at her vehicle during her maneuver, and again I was able to hit the throttle and jump ahead of her so she didn't side-swipe me.

    I completely agree on the importance of driver training and skill, I am just not sure how much this will help the masses who not only make phone calls whilst driving, but also eat meals, play with their ipods, their sat. nav., change clothes-yes, I actually saw a lady change her blouse without stopping, and groom themselves-a guy once completed a shave with an electric razor driving behind me.

    I am not opposed to all these tech. goodies in cars (sat. nav., ipods, for instance-heck, I do listen to music while driving), but I never "fiddle" with them with the wheels moving. I still "pull over" to the roadside if I need to respond to a page when I am on call or answer a cell phone call, but I think I am in a tiny minority, at least around here.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    ....ALl this very interesting, but can the US police afford to have not ONE speeding ticket issued?



    Yes,

    That was exactly my point, that the US would never implement a GPS-based vehicle control system, simply because too many municipalities use speeding ticket revenues for their spending. A local town a half hour south of where I live in upstate New York earns tons of money by parking a patrol car by the road leading to the local ski resort, and since most of the access road has wide-open driving with 55mph limits, but for a quarter mile stretch of the road through the dinky little town when the limit drops to 35mph, an unaware driver who drives by at even 51mph (16 magical mph over the limit) gets clocked for the 6-point fine.

    When I have asked my police friends in my town why they don't enforce the cell phone laws in New York State (it is illegal to drive in this state while speaking on a hand-held cell phone), they "yawn" and say there is no "social" and "financial" reason to. When I point out that the cell phone issue is more a safety issue than is the speed issue, they don't have a response.



    TELL ME ABOUT UPSTATE NEW YORK!

    I once got 6 tickets in 6 months when I lived in Endicott, NY when I was a 20 year old college student. Apparently, they don't like people driving Mustang GT's w/ California plates.

    I got 3 tickets when I drove south of Syracuse, NY, during one stop.

    I once had someone tailgate me on the highway outside of Buffalo, NY at night. So I floored it to triple digit speeds (don't worry, no traffic on this interstate). He finally caught up along side me in his little pickup after I slowed back down and waved his badge. What an idi#t.

    I met my first wife in upstate New York.

    On the other hand, upstate New York is where I learned to drink, play pool, and eat Buffalo wings. 'Cause there's nothing else to do there.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    HAHA, I think the police will not allow this of all ppl! imagine how many jobs they will lose!

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    I actually saw a lady change her blouse without stopping,



    Now I hope this scene didn't distract YOU from concentrating on driving

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    I actually saw a lady change her blouse without stopping,



    Now I hope this scene didn't distract YOU from concentrating on driving



    Fortunately, she was in front of me, so my eyes stayed peeled-straight ahead.

    Re: I knew it would only be a matter of time. Read on

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    Steve R said:
    Driving is dangerous, full stop and driver education is the most effective way to reduce road injuries and deaths.

    Almost anyone can get a license in the UK and the level of driving - particuarly in major cities is attrocious. Many of the people are within the speed limits but totally idiotic with their driving.

    If they try to do this in the UK I'm moving abroad.



    I could have written your post, it's like a mirror image on this side of the pond. In my area, the two car crashes I almost experienced last summer with my new 996TTS involved other drivers on their cell phones nearly plowing into me.

    In one instance, I was driving into the parking lot of our local athletic club when another driver was pulling out, I looked right at him as he was looking down at his phone (pressing the buttons presumably to "dial" a number), no hands on the steering wheel, but foot on the throttle coming at me. Fortunately, my 996TTS had good accel. and I launched to the left into the lot to avoid him.

    In the second instance, another driver and I were coming off the expressway on a dual exit ramp, she was in a big Ford Expedition, chatting away on her phone, and she suddenly decided to change lanes (she wanted to turn left off the exit over the overpass), I was lucky I was looking up at her vehicle during her maneuver, and again I was able to hit the throttle and jump ahead of her so she didn't side-swipe me.

    I completely agree on the importance of driver training and skill, I am just not sure how much this will help the masses who not only make phone calls whilst driving, but also eat meals, play with their ipods, their sat. nav., change clothes-yes, I actually saw a lady change her blouse without stopping, and groom themselves-a guy once completed a shave with an electric razor driving behind me.

    I am not opposed to all these tech. goodies in cars (sat. nav., ipods, for instance-heck, I do listen to music while driving), but I never "fiddle" with them with the wheels moving. I still "pull over" to the roadside if I need to respond to a page when I am on call or answer a cell phone call, but I think I am in a tiny minority, at least around here.



    I think I spoke too soon! Just went out for a drive today and had one person signal left only to cut right in front of me, making me swerve round them. Next I had someone crouching down with a dog in the middle of the road just round a blind bend! Unbelievable. I managed to stop in time luckily.

     
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