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    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    RC - could you persuade your dealer to lend you a Urus for a week / weekend so you can do a proper review for Rennteam? Just tell him Lamborghini may get a few more customers ;)


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    boytronic:

    RC - could you persuade your dealer to lend you a Urus for a week / weekend so you can do a proper review for Rennteam? Just tell him Lamborghini may get a few more customers ;)

    I already had the Urus a couple of times, what do you want to know? Smiley

    I can make only one final verdict about the Urus: If you love SUVs, the Urus is the ultimate high performance SUV, I loved this car so much, you cannot even imagine. Fantastic SUV! If I had the money, this thing would be in my garage. The second best, more from a fun point of view, is the G63 AMG but they aren't comparable, two different beasts.

    Third place: Cayenne Turbo S with GLC 63S AMG facelift (the one I am currently driving), maybe even the RS Q8 (haven't driven it yet but could be very similar to Urus from what I heard).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Many thanks RC! I think you answered my question - I was wondering how the Urus compares to the Cayenne for both fun and usability. I never considered the GLC but it’s interesting given how highly you rated it. Thank you :)


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    boytronic:

    Many thanks RC! I think you answered my question - I was wondering how the Urus compares to the Cayenne for both fun and usability. I never considered the GLC but it’s interesting given how highly you rated it. Thank you :)

    Well, any car leased by RC is the top of the top till he replaced by another one Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    boytronic:

    Many thanks RC! I think you answered my question - I was wondering how the Urus compares to the Cayenne for both fun and usability. I never considered the GLC but it’s interesting given how highly you rated it. Thank you :)

    The GLC is only good if you want something small(er). It is a very good city car, believe it or not. More compact than it seems but still with enough luggage room. Leg room in the back is a bit limited though, my son is almost 1.90m and he has issues in the backseats. Fast as hell (the GLC).

    Compared to the Cayenne, the Urus is way more fun and also sounds better. The interior is just amazing but I also love looking at the exterior, the Urus is just beautiful (a bit color sensitive though in my opinion).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    the-missile:
    boytronic:

    Many thanks RC! I think you answered my question - I was wondering how the Urus compares to the Cayenne for both fun and usability. I never considered the GLC but it’s interesting given how highly you rated it. Thank you :)

    Well, any car leased by RC is the top of the top till he replaced it by another one Smiley

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    the-missile:
    boytronic:

    Many thanks RC! I think you answered my question - I was wondering how the Urus compares to the Cayenne for both fun and usability. I never considered the GLC but it’s interesting given how highly you rated it. Thank you :)

    Well, any car leased by RC is the top of the top till he replaced by another one Smiley

    Smiley I pick them carefully, believe it or not. The E63 S just wasn't right for the city, my wife hated driving and parking it in the city. The GLC is a completely different beast, very easy to drive and the overview is also better.

    I drive many different cars every month (even drove a Zoe recently Smiley) and my opinion is as honest as possible.

    My first choice would have been the Urus but I cannot afford a second Lambo. My second choice would have been the G63 because I love it (but my wife hates it). My third choice were Cayenne Turbo S and GLC 63S AMG and compared to the Cayenne Turbo S, the GLC is a bargain and also much easier to maneuver through the city, including parking.

    Even drove a RAM 1500 recently (my son has been bugging me about it), loved it (2020 model), great value for the money but really not a car for German roads and especially German parking spaces. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Zoe drive?! Wow that is comical. this thing is an absolute non sense if you intend to drive outside massively congested cities indecision

    the C size is not bad and still fit for our roads in europe.

    E class is already borderline and the new G, Urus, Cayenne etc... is way too bulky for our roads and parkings. We did a road trip across Morocco, Spain and south of France...cayenne is like a tank indecision


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    the-missile:

    Zoe drive?! Wow that is comical. this thing is an absolute non sense if you intend to drive outside massively congested cities indecision

    It was more fun than I expected but this is no car, this is a city commuter. Does this make sense? Smiley

    the C size is not bad and still fit for our roads in europe.

    Believe it or not but the GLC 63S is way easier to drive than the C63 S. My wife had a shock when she drove the GLC for the first time..."this is so easy to drive, wow...". Thank god she loves convertibles, so I get to keep driving my GLC. Smiley

    E class is already borderline and the new G, Urus, Cayenne etc... is way too bulky for our roads and parkings. We did a road trip across Morocco, Spain and south of France...cayenne is like a tank indecision

    The GLC 63S AMG is perfect for Europe, honestly. Enough luggage room for a short vacation, very comfortable, fast (as fast as an Urus or Cayenne Turbo S, many people really underestimate this car, which is good), not too flashy and compact enough to go through small and congested city roads, incl. finding a viable parking lot. I loved the E63 S for its sportiness and responsiveness but it was a p in the a to drive in the city, parking was even worse.

    The GLC 63S is the Macan with V8 Porsche never made. Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    i found this to be a very thorough and well-researched article. Well worth the (long) read. kiss

    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4325637-how-to-destroy-great-global-brand-and-cult-of-ferrari

     


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Rossi:

    i found this to be a very thorough and well-researched article. Well worth the (long) read. kiss

    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4325637-how-to-destroy-great-global-brand-and-cult-of-ferrari

     

    Indeed very interesting, interesting times ahead...


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    The long read was worth it. Thanks for posting. With the looming market correction, the article will take on greater significance. 
     

    Fwiw, when Ferrari introduced the California I decided to get out. Sadly I’m seeing signs similar signs with Porsche GT cars. It may be time to get out of the high performance car sector. 


    --

    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    I would tend to agree.  Ferrari today is driven more by their stock price then anything else.  I recent did an article on Ferrari, Aston, and McLarens financial situation.  Ferrari is in the best shape but its all dependent on keeping the share price inflated.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    SSO.:

    I would tend to agree.  Ferrari today is driven more by their stock price then anything else.  I recent did an article on Ferrari, Aston, and McLarens financial situation.  Ferrari is in the best shape but its all dependent on keeping the share price inflated.

    Do send us a link to the article or paste it please.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    crayphile:
    SSO.:

    I would tend to agree.  Ferrari today is driven more by their stock price then anything else.  I recent did an article on Ferrari, Aston, and McLarens financial situation.  Ferrari is in the best shape but its all dependent on keeping the share price inflated.

    Do send us a link to the article or paste it please.

     

    As requested:  https://karenable.com

    Any and all feedback is welcome.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    SSO.:
    crayphile:
    SSO.:

    I would tend to agree.  Ferrari today is driven more by their stock price then anything else.  I recent did an article on Ferrari, Aston, and McLarens financial situation.  Ferrari is in the best shape but its all dependent on keeping the share price inflated.

    Do send us a link to the article or paste it please.

     

    As requested:  https://karenable.com

    Any and all feedback is welcome.

    I should have guessed from the handle Smiley. We are honoured to have you on our Forum. I'll have a read and respond as appropriate.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Handle actually came from EVO Mag.  would not have been my first choice but its kind of stuck.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    SSO.:As requested:  https://karenable.com

    Any and all feedback is welcome.

    I agree with the main thrust of your article with a few nuances. Ferrari is more focussed on EPS than pure stock price growth which explains the focus on exploiting its Limited Series cars which have maximum profitability. This could easily come unstuck though. The Monza ended up going to people on tier 2 below the La Ferrari level. Now with Covid19 the next Icona needs to be really good to keep that momentum going. I have no doubt they will sell them all but not is the way it was originally intended though almost permanently low borrowing costs will help. Volume expansion is a dangerous game as you point out and I am not sure it's played out well with the F8 and it remains to be seen how much people will lose on a Roma but I suspect it will be a significant amount. The 812Sueprfast bubble has burst quickly from waiting lists to new cars £75K off list. Also SF90 deposits are not enormous from what I can garner. I am surprised  you are as bullish as you appear to be on McLaren - its a complete disaster here in the UK. There were warehouses full of unsold 570s and 720S here in the UK. The 765LT has not been sold out, and they have had to cut Elva numbers. This is coming from someone who has supported the brand like yourself since inception. I will think twice before buying a new Mclaren again. Sennas are way below list in the UK even before Covid19. Aston Martin was clearly overvalued at flotation and is in real trouble as you point out. I refused to finance their working capital needs under the guise of a Valhalla deposit. Even if Stroll takes it private it revisits their continuous problem of not having the capital to invest in R&D and churning out technologically obsolete cars that on occasion look great but drive poorly. They are still putting torque converter gearboxes in their cars Smiley.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    crayphile:
    SSO.:As requested:  https://karenable.com

    Any and all feedback is welcome.

    I agree with the main thrust of your article with a few nuances. Ferrari is more focussed on EPS than pure stock price growth which explains the focus on exploiting its Limited Series cars which have maximum profitability. This could easily come unstuck though. The Monza ended up going to people on tier 2 below the La Ferrari level. Now with Covid19 the next Icona needs to be really good to keep that momentum going. I have no doubt they will sell them all but not is the way it was originally intended though almost permanently low borrowing costs will help. Volume expansion is a dangerous game as you point out and I am not sure it's played out well with the F8 and it remains to be seen how much people will lose on a Roma but I suspect it will be a significant amount. The 812Sueprfast bubble has burst quickly from waiting lists to new cars £75K off list. Also SF90 deposits are not enormous from what I can garner. I am surprised  you are as bullish as you appear to be on McLaren - its a complete disaster here in the UK. There were warehouses full of unsold 570s and 720S here in the UK. The 765LT has not been sold out, and they have had to cut Elva numbers. This is coming from someone who has supported the brand like yourself since inception. I will think twice before buying a new Mclaren again. Sennas are way below list in the UK even before Covid19. Aston Martin was clearly overvalued at flotation and is in real trouble as you point out. I refused to finance their working capital needs under the guise of a Valhalla deposit. Even if Stroll takes it private it revisits their continuous problem of not having the capital to invest in R&D and churning out technologically obsolete cars that on occasion look great but drive poorly. They are still putting torque converter gearboxes in their cars Smiley.

    I know Ferrari got major push back from a lot of the Tier 1 customers on the Monza.  One just changed hands privately at a $400k loss which just illustrates the challenge Ferrari will have trying to keep the Icona range going.  I don't get the Roma at all, no idea why Ferrari decided it need to build an Aston Martin knock off.  How the SF90 does will be really important for them.  On EPS, it is the main driver of stock price growth so EPS is the action and stock price the outcome.

    I feels like McLaren is actually doing better in the US than UK.  Elva has a bit of a mess and timing no the 765LT could not have been worse.   They should cut production to 500 units on the coupe and same for the Spider.  I will be very interested to see McLaren's earnings release in two days.

    I did have a deposit on the Valhalla but pulled it a I can't think of a worse group I want holding onto my money thee days.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    SSO:

    I did have a deposit on the Valhalla but pulled it a I can't think of a worse group I want holding onto my money thee days.

    Perhaps a deposit on the Tesla Roadster... almost three years ago? Smiley


    --

    2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    The monza looked great, but i'm not sure if that martket size is that big (for 2 seaters without windshield)

    -400K is a lot.

    And welcome to the forum SSO.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    What other Icona cars can/will Ferrari make?

    250 GTO (my speculation; likely as the final final final NA V12 with no hybridization)

    Testarossa (heard this from a Ferrari source recently)

    F40 (various rumors of this over the past few years - probably SF90-based)

    Not many other “icons” in the portfolio (that wouldn’t be outdone by the above cars - e.g. Daytona or BB - or too new to merit the nomenclature - e.g. F50, Enzo)


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    xpto:

    The monza looked great, but i'm not sure if that martket size is that big (for 2 seaters without windshield)

    -400K is a lot.

    And welcome to the forum SSO.

    The Monza is a very, very special car indeed. I really enjoyed looking at it. Beautiful design Smiley


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    xpto:

    The monza looked great, but i'm not sure if that martket size is that big (for 2 seaters without windshield)

    -400K is a lot.

    And welcome to the forum SSO.

    Agreed. I think the initial idea was 250 ( unsubstantiated) and then they increased the number - mistake all round in the medium and long term.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Or making the 1 seater more rare, because its market should be even smaller


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    Guest:

    What other Icona cars can/will Ferrari make?

    250 GTO (my speculation; likely as the final final final NA V12 with no hybridization)

    Testarossa (heard this from a Ferrari source recently)

    F40 (various rumors of this over the past few years - probably SF90-based)

    Not many other “icons” in the portfolio (that wouldn’t be outdone by the above cars - e.g. Daytona or BB - or too new to merit the nomenclature - e.g. F50, Enzo)

     

    My guess (and I have zero inside knowledge) is the next one will be based on the 275 GTB NART Spider.


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    I have been out of Ferrari’s for 15 years. I got out when they introduced the California. I recognized that the increase in models will lead to increase in production except for their limited production cars. More importantly, I just lost interest in Ferrari’s. They are great flashy cars but no longer suited who I am. I like to be noticed to some degree on public roads. Porsche provides me with that. Ferrari’s are in your face and over the top. The final deal breaker was my wife refused to ride in it. She wanted to be in the Porsche. Smiley

     


    --

     

    When you're going through hell.....keep going.

     


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    nberry:

    I have been out of Ferrari’s for 15 years. I got out when they introduced the California. I recognized that the increase in models will lead to increase in production except for their limited production cars. More importantly, I just lost interest in Ferrari’s. They are great flashy cars but no longer suited who I am. I like to be noticed to some degree on public roads. Porsche provides me with that. Ferrari’s are in your face and over the top. The final deal breaker was my wife refused to ride in it. She wanted to be in the Porsche. Smiley

    We all remember the day this happened, when Nick joined the dark side Smiley 


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    bluelines:
    nberry:

    I have been out of Ferrari’s for 15 years. I got out when they introduced the California. I recognized that the increase in models will lead to increase in production except for their limited production cars. More importantly, I just lost interest in Ferrari’s. They are great flashy cars but no longer suited who I am. I like to be noticed to some degree on public roads. Porsche provides me with that. Ferrari’s are in your face and over the top. The final deal breaker was my wife refused to ride in it. She wanted to be in the Porsche. Smiley

    We all remember the day this happened, when Nick joined the dark side Smiley 

    ...very true, but perhaps, at the time we did not fully appreciate the role of 'the wife', silently pulling those strings.... Smiley


    --

     

    2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

     


    Re: Is Ferrari making a mistake?

    4trac:
    bluelines:
    nberry:

    I have been out of Ferrari’s for 15 years. I got out when they introduced the California. I recognized that the increase in models will lead to increase in production except for their limited production cars. More importantly, I just lost interest in Ferrari’s. They are great flashy cars but no longer suited who I am. I like to be noticed to some degree on public roads. Porsche provides me with that. Ferrari’s are in your face and over the top. The final deal breaker was my wife refused to ride in it. She wanted to be in the Porsche. Smiley

    We all remember the day this happened, when Nick joined the dark side Smiley 

    ...very true, but perhaps, at the time we did not fully appreciate the role of 'the wife', silently pulling those strings.... Smiley


    --

     

    2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo

     

    Cant underestimate the power of the "wife".  Mine has a major sw in what gets acquired and used.  She like the McLaren 675LT Spider so we take it on a lot of road trips.  The Porsche 911 (997.2) GT3 RS is to hard and loud in her POV so I tend to only drive it on my own.


     
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