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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    JR-550:

    Looking at the Harry's Garage video today with all the details. I really wonder how Gordan Murray is going to pull this off with 100 cars at app 3 mlj Euro. Is this really gone pay for the development and production of this car? I really hope so looks an interesting car for me.

    I wonder if the sales price is locked down and contractual or whether it could be adjusted up?


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Apparently there is demand for a 25 car run above the 100 for a GTR racing series. Do the same as the P1 where you had a lot of guys take a track car and a road one. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a car video as much as this one with Gordon explaining all the details of this engineering marvel and such clear ideas of what he wants in a car for the ultimate driving experience, absolutely fascinating.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Give me a ~2400lb or under, mid engined, 3.5L V12 ~500HP, PDK, AWD, then I will be happy.

    Both hands on wheel for total engagement in the corners, lower specific output to preserve low end torque. AWD for full fun in mountain switchbacks. This is my idea street car.

    On track, I don't mind just RWD with all the power up at the very top.

     

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Whoopsy:

    Give me a ~2400lb or under, mid engined, 3.5L V12 ~500HP, PDK, AWD, then I will be happy.

    Both hands on wheel for total engagement in the corners, lower specific output to preserve low end torque. AWD for full fun in mountain switchbacks. This is my idea street car.

    On track, I don't mind just RWD with all the power up at the very top

    If you want more NA low end torque, then you want more than 3.5L of NA - it's all about displacement (and to a lesser extent gearing, when high specific output helps)...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Here’s a question that I have not seen answered, as much of the media coverage (all the videos and Andrew Frankel’s DriveNation podcast) has been from Britain, with the exception of Brad Brownell’s extensive interview for Jalopnik.

    The T.50 is resolutely a road car, per Gordon.  The McLaren Speedtail is infamously NOT road legal in the US due to side impact testing / standards.  Will the T.50 be road legal in the US?  If so, what accounts for the discrepancy vs. the Speedtail?

    I anticipate that GMA will be able to sell all of the cars in ROW (i.e., non-US) markets multiple times over, so it hardly matters, but why would an American customer want to buy a road-biased car that ... cannot be used on the road (if that’s the case)?

    Canepa is the US distribution / sales partner.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I don’t know the answer, but aren’t very low volume manufacturers subject to less stringent regulations?  Or does that only pertain to fuel economy and emissions?

     


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:

    I don’t know the answer, but aren’t very low volume manufacturers subject to less stringent regulations?  Or does that only pertain to fuel economy and emissions?

     

    also to certification in regards to technical aspects. waivers are subject for approval.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Carlos from Spain:

    I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a car video as much as this one with Gordon explaining all the details of this engineering marvel and such clear ideas of what he wants in a car for the ultimate driving experience, absolutely fascinating.

    +1

    I like this car and liked his comments on the size of modern cars. I never understood why cars needed to increase in size during the last 20-30 years. I thought the 90s sizes were ideal. This resulted in serious issues parking them and taking road real estate as many buildings and roads were designed many years back. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    OK, I hate to ask this but...is this thing street legal certified? angry I heard how many issues Mercedes had with the high revving engine and emissions certification, so... yes


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    No, they’ve not built any yet. But I imagine it was mentioned on the design brief for Cosworth.


    --

    2019 911 GT3 RS,1964 Type 1


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    DaveGordon:

    No, they’ve not built any yet. But I imagine it was mentioned on the design brief for Cosworth.

    The specs sound and look fantastic, the car looks fantastic too and reminds me a lot of a new interpretation of the classic F1 but...is it street legal with these specs? Not that two years later, we are going to get a 200 kg weight increase and 100 hp power decrease. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Actually obtaining a certification is of course a risk, but they know the project timelines and therefore the standards they need to comply with, so you would hope that a well-established engine builder like Cosworth was capable of delivering on that. I would guess that compliance is also a condition on their contract as a supplier. Let’s hope the end product is very close to the goal.


    --

    2019 911 GT3 RS,1964 Type 1


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Guest:

    Here’s a question that I have not seen answered, as much of the media coverage (all the videos and Andrew Frankel’s DriveNation podcast) has been from Britain, with the exception of Brad Brownell’s extensive interview for Jalopnik.

    The T.50 is resolutely a road car, per Gordon.  The McLaren Speedtail is infamously NOT road legal in the US due to side impact testing / standards.  Will the T.50 be road legal in the US?  If so, what accounts for the discrepancy vs. the Speedtail?

    I anticipate that GMA will be able to sell all of the cars in ROW (i.e., non-US) markets multiple times over, so it hardly matters, but why would an American customer want to buy a road-biased car that ... cannot be used on the road (if that’s the case)?

    Canepa is the US distribution / sales partner.

    From my understanding the Speedtail´s registration was denied to to the lack of side airbags as well as rearview mirrors. If that is the case, the T.50 might be in the same situation unless there is a rule of exemption. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Pessimism level is very high on this board from the usual suspects angry


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    RC:
    DaveGordon:

    No, they’ve not built any yet. But I imagine it was mentioned on the design brief for Cosworth.

    The specs sound and look fantastic, the car looks fantastic too and reminds me a lot of a new interpretation of the classic F1 but...is it street legal with these specs? Not that two years later, we are going to get a 200 kg weight increase and 100 hp power decrease. Smiley Smiley

    With the inclusion of a roof-fed ram-air induction system, power can be increased to around 700hp, meaning it becomes more powerful the faster you drive.

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    wantone:
    Carlos from Spain:

    I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a car video as much as this one with Gordon explaining all the details of this engineering marvel and such clear ideas of what he wants in a car for the ultimate driving experience, absolutely fascinating.

    I like this car and liked his comments on the size of modern cars. I never understood why cars needed to increase in size during the last 20-30 years. I thought the 90s sizes were ideal. This resulted in serious issues parking them and taking road real estate as many buildings and roads were designed many years back. 


    Absolutely agree. His opinion and determination to follow his goals is remarkable and shows what can be done when manufacturers are willing to put in the effort.

    Funny enough that companies like McLaren and Tesla as well as individuals like Gordon Murray turn the car industry onto their heads. On top of that, how many significant cars are coming out of Great Britain again.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    DaveGordon:

    Actually obtaining a certification is of course a risk, but they know the project timelines and therefore the standards they need to comply with, so you would hope that a well-established engine builder like Cosworth was capable of delivering on that. I would guess that compliance is also a condition on their contract as a supplier. Let’s hope the end product is very close to the goal.

    Smiley I know that a certain car collector in Munich is very worried about how his ordered Project One will turn out. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    BiTurbo:

    Pessimism level is very high on this board from the usual suspects angry

    You read my thoughts. Anything that can be dismissed or worried about will be done. Now it was the T.50’s time Smiley


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    bluelines:
    BiTurbo:

    Pessimism level is very high on this board from the usual suspects angry

    You read my thoughts. Anything that can be dismissed or worried about will be done. Now it was the T.50’s time 


    Let´s just call it... different opinions, with a slight overhang. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Hope they can avoid GPF, or at least make them easily removable.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    T.50’s engine comes from a clean sheet of paper with a brief to perform a certain way and conform to the relevant standards. Project One’s sounds more like a kind of vanity project where someone senior has told the engineers to make a version of the F1 engine roadworthy. I can understand why the latter might be much more problematic.


    --

    2019 911 GT3 RS,1964 Type 1


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    RC:

    OK, I hate to ask this but...is this thing street legal certified? angry I heard how many issues Mercedes had with the high revving engine and emissions certification, so... yes

    An excellent question.  I expect it to be road legal in _at least_ all the places the McL F1 was legal, otherwise I doubt there would be 60-some depositors.

    What I really wonder, will it be U.S.-road legal?  I mean legal-legal, not show-and-display legal.  I've not seen any information on that point.

    Getting past U.S. DOT rules won't be easy, not to mention their stupid things like seatbelt chimes, door key buzzers, archaic lighting limits, bumper impacts, crash testing, et al.  I expect GM thinks in terms of EU rules, not U.S.  The McL F1 was not U.S. road legal.  I could see the DOT balking at no T.50 door mirrors, only cameras, for example.  The airbag rules are obviously intended for when you have a person right next to a door, not several feet away in a center seat.

    The EU has provisions for low volume makers, and given there's 100 total likely spread over a few years, we could be talking 30 cars/year from GMA.  That would make for maximum loopholes available.  No GPFs, I hope.  The U.S. doesn't have volume-based rules, so far as I know.  

    He did mention the T.50 has to include ABS, by law, which he's okay with, and yaw control, which he made 100% switchable.  

    Because the F1 was a bear to park with manual steering, the T.50 has a clutched assist that comes in at parking speeds, then totally goes off once above parking.

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    OK, so Gordon has a type........indecision


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    There is a US distributor in Bruce Canepa (who was helpful in making 959 versions for US, and now much faster than original).  I guess some of his customers would likely still buy a car to put on display or race track...

    https://canepa.com/


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Jim_in_Iowa:
     

    The EU has provisions for low volume makers, and given there's 100 total likely spread over a few years, we could be talking 30 cars/year from GMA.  That would make for maximum loopholes available.  No GPFs, I hope.

    The U.S. doesn't have volume-based rules, so far as I know. 

    The US has extremely lax rules for "kit cars", so if Canepa puts the engine (which could arrive in a separate crate) into the chassis, then it is a Kit...

    I think this is how people registered Noble sports cars here


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Jim_in_Iowa:
    RC:

    OK, I hate to ask this but...is this thing street legal certified? angry I heard how many issues Mercedes had with the high revving engine and emissions certification, so... yes

    An excellent question.  I expect it to be road legal in _at least_ all the places the McL F1 was legal, otherwise I doubt there would be 60-some depositors.

    What I really wonder, will it be U.S.-road legal?  I mean legal-legal, not show-and-display legal.  I've not seen any information on that point.

    Getting past U.S. DOT rules won't be easy, not to mention their stupid things like seatbelt chimes, door key buzzers, archaic lighting limits, bumper impacts, crash testing, et al.  I expect GM thinks in terms of EU rules, not U.S.  The McL F1 was not U.S. road legal.  I could see the DOT balking at no T.50 door mirrors, only cameras, for example.  The airbag rules are obviously intended for when you have a person right next to a door, not several feet away in a center seat.

    The EU has provisions for low volume makers, and given there's 100 total likely spread over a few years, we could be talking 30 cars/year from GMA.  That would make for maximum loopholes available.  No GPFs, I hope.  The U.S. doesn't have volume-based rules, so far as I know.  

    He did mention the T.50 has to include ABS, by law, which he's okay with, and yaw control, which he made 100% switchable.  

    Because the F1 was a bear to park with manual steering, the T.50 has a clutched assist that comes in at parking speeds, then totally goes off once above parking.

     

    zero chance it will be fully road legal in the US.  It will likely get show and display status but that's it.  


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    SSO.:
    Jim_in_Iowa:
    RC:

    OK, I hate to ask this but...is this thing street legal certified? angry I heard how many issues Mercedes had with the high revving engine and emissions certification, so... yes

    An excellent question.  I expect it to be road legal in _at least_ all the places the McL F1 was legal, otherwise I doubt there would be 60-some depositors.

    What I really wonder, will it be U.S.-road legal?  I mean legal-legal, not show-and-display legal.  I've not seen any information on that point.

    Getting past U.S. DOT rules won't be easy, not to mention their stupid things like seatbelt chimes, door key buzzers, archaic lighting limits, bumper impacts, crash testing, et al.  I expect GM thinks in terms of EU rules, not U.S.  The McL F1 was not U.S. road legal.  I could see the DOT balking at no T.50 door mirrors, only cameras, for example.  The airbag rules are obviously intended for when you have a person right next to a door, not several feet away in a center seat.

    The EU has provisions for low volume makers, and given there's 100 total likely spread over a few years, we could be talking 30 cars/year from GMA.  That would make for maximum loopholes available.  No GPFs, I hope.  The U.S. doesn't have volume-based rules, so far as I know.  

    He did mention the T.50 has to include ABS, by law, which he's okay with, and yaw control, which he made 100% switchable.  

    Because the F1 was a bear to park with manual steering, the T.50 has a clutched assist that comes in at parking speeds, then totally goes off once above parking.

     

    zero chance it will be fully road legal in the US.  It will likely get show and display status but that's it.  

    Does that get 2,500 miles per year restriction?  If so, that's more than enough for most prospective owners...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    Give me a ~2400lb or under, mid engined, 3.5L V12 ~500HP, PDK, AWD, then I will be happy.

    Both hands on wheel for total engagement in the corners, lower specific output to preserve low end torque. AWD for full fun in mountain switchbacks. This is my idea street car.

    On track, I don't mind just RWD with all the power up at the very top

    If you want more NA low end torque, then you want more than 3.5L of NA - it's all about displacement (and to a lesser extent gearing, when high specific output helps)...

     

    It is and it isn't. 

    It's all about the compromises on intake runners and design. Most sacrifice the low end to enhance the upper end breathing for making the ultimate power. The intake runners can be designed to resonate at a lower rpm to enhance the ram air effect for low end output, but obviously that's a trade off for top end power.

    Very likely I'd be willing to accept 500hp instead of 550hp at the top end if the low end torque is enhance by a meaningful amount. 

    With a very light car, it really doesn't need a lot of hp. The 240hp from the 4C feels plenty enough already.

     

     


    --

     

     


     
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