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    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Spyderidol:

    As usual I don't see things in the same way ( and in this case with Whoopsy). Bentley are racing their cars all over the GT series trying to promote its sportiness and end the stayed and stuffy image it previously had.

    I don't see why Porsche can not compete directly with the Audi R8 or the Hurracan. I don't see Audi asking Porsche's permission to encroach on the Cayman territory with its TT RS.

    Perhaps there are quite a few Porsche aficionados that would go for a sporty sedan, but I bet there are as many or more that would go for a mid-engine Fe-Fi type car.

    Just my opinion.

    Porsche is part of the VW Group and there are certain decisions which may or may not please everyone I'm afraid.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Yes, I understand that, but there is a lot of cross over in models and we don't really know what decisions are or are not taken.

    also - VAG as a group, always operated with a philosophy of a certain amount of autonomy between their companies. According to the latest information, Muller would like to see that autonomy increased even more.

     


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Spyderidol:

    As usual I don't see things in the same way ( and in this case with Whoopsy). Bentley are racing their cars all over the GT series trying to promote its sportiness and end the stayed and stuffy image it previously had.

    And the results? Bentley's name is still being associated with a living room on wheels. Not sporty. Just look at the weight of their most sportiest car, the Continental GT3-R! It's close to 5000lbs Smiley And that supremely dated interior, it's absolutely not conveying a sporty feeling. 

    I don't see why Porsche can not compete directly with the Audi R8 or the Hurracan. I don't see Audi asking Porsche's permission to encroach on the Cayman territory with its TT RS.

    Audi used to be the bully within PAG, it's Piech's baby and they can pretty much do whatever they want. R8 climbing up on Lamborghini, TT TR going up against Porsche. If Piech doesn't return to the board, then Audi's reign within VAG will be over soon, they will have to step back inline. 

     

    Perhaps there are quite a few Porsche aficionados that would go for a sporty sedan, but I bet there are as many or more that would go for a mid-engine Fe-Fi type car.

    Just my opinion.

     

    A mid-engine 960 is a one dimensional car, no matter how big the market it can dig out, a front engine multi-purpose GT will have a bigger slice. And for racing purposes, front engine is not a hinderance, look at how successful the Corvette racing team is, and the Aston Martin effort. A front mid engine car can just be as effective as a rear mind engine car for racing.


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    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Agreed, throughout the VW empire, a lot of their cars are essentially vying for the same market space, the R8/Huracan/960 clash would, by comparison, be the least of the VW Group's worry.

    The clash of similarly positioned cars in the markletplace could become even more pronounced going forward, as soon as the new sub-Group structure is rolled out, with Porsche and Audi heading distinct, and competing, sub-Groups within VW.

    Platform-sharing will continue, of course, but so will competition...on the road and on track, witth LeMans/WEC being a case in point.

    RC, how about a 2-door Mission E - GT derivative with four seats, wing-delete, PDK-only and great lease offers...smiley


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Whoopsy - Bentley is changing their image. They are not there yet, but give them some time.

    The problem is that a front mid-engine car is not part of Porsche's heritage. Small rear mid-engine cars are. After all the very first 356 prototype was a mid engine car. Then we had the 550 Spyder, the 718 , the 904  then the  906/908 and so on.

    Aston Martin is very fortunate that the GT series are BoP'd otherwise they would be no where.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    A 3.9L Flat-8 would offer plenty of options for Porsche.  Even if it starts with 650hp with 4 turbos, there will be enough headroom (with more boost) in such a setup to make around 1,000hp if needed.

    It could also form the basis of a mean NA motor with ability to rev close to 10,000 rpm if desired (for GT3?).  Cylinders smaller than 500cc are much easier to rev than the big cylinders in the 4.0L and rumored 4.2L Flat-6 RS motors.  And there would be room to grow the displacement (which will be near max at Flat-6 4.2L).  Same cylinder size would give 5.6L in a Flat-8 with NA power at ~ 700hp if same efficiency as current RS.


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    RC implied there is a new V8 from Porsche coming so it can be used. I like Nick idea. Currently the 612/FF has no competition and is a fantastic platform, no wonder rich guys have one in the stable. Porsche would have one issue though with the depreciation of the FF. You can buy a 2-3 year old FF for $220k all day. Porsche would not be able to sell such car new significantly above $225k IMHO. Also the Panamera is just too boring to drive, how do you expect them to work some magic and make it fun like the 612/FF?


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    SciFrog:

    RC implied there is a new V8 from Porsche coming so it can be used. I like Nick idea. Currently the 612/FF has no competition and is a fantastic platform, no wonder rich guys have one in the stable. Porsche would have one issue though with the depreciation of the FF. You can buy a 2-3 year old FF for $220k all day. Porsche would not be able to sell such car new significantly above $225k IMHO. Also the Panamera is just too boring to drive, how do you expect them to work some magic and make it fun like the 612/FF?

    The new V8 is intended for the Cayenne, Panamera and some other upcoming models. Not for the 911, sorry...

    I even heard that it could fit the Macan (after some engine bay mods) but I doubt that Porsche will do us the favor... Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    We are talking Panamera Coupe here to compete with the FF and not 911.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    IF Porsche can get a go ahead from the board for a brand new 4L V8 turbo, then yes, that new engine 'could' be used for sports car. But surely it will need a different tuning. The power band requirement for pushing sedans/SUVs/GT coupes will be very different than sports car. It will be more compact and lighter than the current 4.8L. But then again it may not make sense to have a 4L flat 6 AND a 4L V8. 

    The current 4.8L V8 is still emission compliant, so there isn't a need for a new engine yet and I believe there is still some headroom for it to go above 600HP.

     


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    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    There is likely room in the market for a 960 coupe in the Huracan/675 price range..Not everyone wants a coupe as staid as the R8, as flashy as a Huracan or as ostentatious as a F car and the 5000lb Bentley GT fails at being both pompous (too dated looking) and a excellent handler (so much weight). McLaren 650's have a rep for being rolling money pits so the timing is ripe for a new sports car for buyers in that price range.

    A flat8 would be ideal for low center of gravity, brand continuation and to justify the model and price over the flat6 911 models. Would also give them a new envelope for motorsports use.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    JimFlat6:

    There is likely room in the market for a 960 coupe in the Huracan/675 price range..Not everyone wants a coupe as staid as the R8, as flashy as a Huracan or as ostentatious as a F car and the 5000lb Bentley GT fails at being both pompous (too dated looking) and a excellent handler (so much weight). McLaren 650's have a rep for being rolling money pits so the timing is ripe for a new sports car for buyers in that price range.

    A flat8 would be ideal for low center of gravity, brand continuation and to justify the model and price over the flat6 911 models. Would also give them a new envelope for motorsports use.

    Re. engines - one of the questions Porsche will surely be considering is:  where are we in the gradual shift towards acceptance of hybrid tech in pure sports cars (leaving aside pure electric for the moment....).  If Porsche thinks the public is getting there, and that they could develop a car in the right price range with the appropriate performance, they could score some distinction points by making a 960 hybrid - after all the 918 was in part justified to be a rolling test bed for this technology.  And, its harder to argue it is not possible in this price range after Honda have done it....   Somehow it would be strange to leave the 918 as a sort of technology orphan  yes


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Given Porsche's propensity for model variants, I could see AWD, RWD, NA, Turbo, Hybrid, and GT lightweight variants.

    I could also see a high rev NA version of the Flat-8 being prefect for a future 911 GT3...


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    SciFrog:

    We are talking Panamera Coupe here to compete with the FF and not 911.

    So what is wrong with a 600+ or even 700 hp V8 engine? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Bugatti runs the new engine with up to 2.85 bar - Porsche has a lot of HP potential left.....easily extracted


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Porsche is doing VERY well. Why would they want to spend time and resources on a front engine model?

    Contrary to popular belief, Porsche doesn't compete against Ferrari. Ferrari would love to have Porsche's financials. Porsche has carved out a beautiful niche and there is no reason for them to compromise it. 

     


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    I will give you a hint in a totally different direction! Think about mission e angry


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    AM


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    ALDO:

    I will give you a hint in a totally different direction! Think about mission e angry

    Does it have a "9xxx" number? Smiley


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    The Mission E will be the 960?


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    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E & 991.2 GT3 on order


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Or smaller two door coupe based on the Mission e...?

    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    We are talking Panamera Coupe here to compete with the FF and not 911.

    So what is wrong with a 600+ or even 700 hp V8 engine? Smiley

    as long as the panamera looks like a whale it cannot compete against anything at all. it is one of the most hideous car designs i have ever seen.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    At VAG Porsche is reliable for sportscars and V8 engines. The new Panamera platform will be part one and will be used by Bentley for upcoming models as well. Part two is the much rumored sportscar platform. Auto Motor and Sport amongst others reported several times, that this one should fit them all: 911, Boxster/Cayman, Lamborghini, Audi R8.

     A new 4.0l V8 is developed right now AFAIK, though Whoopsy mentioned "green light" is still pending. And last but not least, Porsche is the VAG development company for Hybrid drivetrains and electric engines as well.

    Given the current constellation, I think a Panamera Coupe is a must, together with some performance hybrids based on the new V8 in the lineup and maybe a fully electric drivetrain, since all these products are missing at VAG.

    Regarding the topic, I can imagine the 960 being the series production version of the 918 spyder. Mid engined high performance hybrid car in the Hurracan - Aventador area, yet more than one step ahead. Porsche won't invest a ton of money in the WEC program just to win races, they do relevant R&D here and at a certain point this technology will for sure go into production. For packaging reasons the engine will most likely be a V6 or V8 here. Boxers require a lot of space exspecially with turbochargers, so I don't think there will be a flat 8.


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Boyko23:
    Or smaller two door coupe based on the Mission e...?

    That would be awesome!


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    their is no green lighted project for any model between 911 and 918. V8 flat is stopped. 

    The only new model in development (green light) is mission e. 


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    AM


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    ALDO:

    their is no green lighted project for any model between 911 and 918. V8 flat is stopped. 

    The only new model in development (green light) is mission e. 

    Do you mean a flat 8 engine or the 4.0 V8 I mentioned (for next Gen Panamera and Cayenne)


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    I think he is referring to the 960 we all love to brag about. This car indeed doesn't have the green light yet, for various (internal "political" VW Group reasons as well) reasons.

    A new V8 engine is coming for the Cayenne and Panamera.
    What ALDO probably refers to is the "smaller" Panamera everybody was talking about and it seems this will be the Mission e. Apparently this car has priority, seems to be a prestige thing...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Don't know where to post this, but we'll see something tomorrow? Any suggestions?

    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    New RSR for GTE


    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    Mission E is just showing where things are going and that their research teams have determined that EVs will make a significant impact in the near future, otherwise why invest so heavily in it now... unless of course you want to be at the cutting edge and establish as the EV sports car to have! I think it's a great great idea! 


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Not Official... Yet Porsche 960 MY2019

    here it is:


     
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