Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring - Page1

Jul 18, 2007 9:35:53 PM

mp: Pilot; Loc: New York, USA; Posts: 361, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 4, 2006

997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Found this video of a driving event held at the Ring. The instructor is driving a red 997 Turbo while the video is being shot from an M3 CSL driven by a participant.

IMO, the sheer speed advantage of the Turbo on the straights clearly illustrates how improbable it is for the CSL to lap the Ring faster, as mentioned in other Posts by:

Draw your own conclusions.

Enjoy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpvYuKno5Hk

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Jul 19, 2007 6:57:42 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: mp

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

The Sport Auto Ring times are the most credible comparisons available. If we accept the times we agree with and dispute the times with which we disagree, we are left with no credible comparison of Ring times.

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Jul 19, 2007 7:06:36 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

BTW, I have driven hundreds of laps at the Ring in a tuned 996 Turbo with H&R coilovers. It is a very fast car, and (unlike the 997 TT) neutral and predictable at the limit.

But Turbos are WAY too heavy for serious track use.

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Jul 19, 2007 12:05:40 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

AUM,

how were you laps/times in the 996TT stock vs H&R coilovers?

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Jul 19, 2007 12:33:15 PM

mp: Pilot; Loc: New York, USA; Posts: 361, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 4, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Quote:
AUM said:
BTW, I have driven hundreds of laps at the Ring in a tuned 996 Turbo with H&R coilovers. It is a very fast car, and (unlike the 997 TT) neutral and predictable at the limit.

But Turbos are WAY too heavy for serious track use.

1. Yes - the Turbo isn't ideal for track use, but it's very capable.
2. Yes - the 997tt is harder to drive (for some) than the 996tt. But many also find it more rewarding to drive.
3. Yes - Sport Auto sets the benchmark, but please read everything else as well. Then go out and drive one before drawing your own conclusions.
4. I haven't read one Post about (stock) CSL's or 996tt's beating 997tt's on the track. Don't you think people would be bragging about it, if it were true?
5. Why aren't you driving a CSL if you like it so much?

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Jul 19, 2007 8:41:45 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Quote:
eclou said:
AUM,

how were you laps/times in the 996TT stock vs H&R coilovers?

I have no hard data but I guess about a 5 to 10 second improvement. From being slower than most GT3s to being faster than most GT3s feels significant.

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Jul 20, 2007 1:38:33 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

You can argue that a Sport Auto time can be beaten by a faster driver. But you cannot claim that a Sport Auto time is too fast. Therefore the CSL time of 7.50 cannot be disputed as being too quick.

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Jul 21, 2007 6:04:13 PM

Porker: Rennteam VIP; Loc: SZ , Switzerland; Posts: 6884, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: mp

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Quote:
mp said:
Quote:
AUM said:
BTW, I have driven hundreds of laps at the Ring in a tuned 996 Turbo with H&R coilovers. It is a very fast car, and (unlike the 997 TT) neutral and predictable at the limit.

But Turbos are WAY too heavy for serious track use.

1. Yes - the Turbo isn't ideal for track use, but it's very capable.
2. Yes - the 997tt is harder to drive (for some) than the 996tt. But many also find it more rewarding to drive.
3. Yes - Sport Auto sets the benchmark, but please read everything else as well. Then go out and drive one before drawing your own conclusions.
4. I haven't read one Post about (stock) CSL's or 996tt's beating 997tt's on the track. Don't you think people would be bragging about it, if it were true?
5. Why aren't you driving a CSL if you like it so much?

Where has AUM stated he really likes a CSL?

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Jul 21, 2007 6:09:18 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Porker

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Quote:
Porker said:
Quote:
mp said:
Quote:
AUM said:
BTW, I have driven hundreds of laps at the Ring in a tuned 996 Turbo with H&R coilovers. It is a very fast car, and (unlike the 997 TT) neutral and predictable at the limit.

But Turbos are WAY too heavy for serious track use.

1. Yes - the Turbo isn't ideal for track use, but it's very capable.
2. Yes - the 997tt is harder to drive (for some) than the 996tt. But many also find it more rewarding to drive.
3. Yes - Sport Auto sets the benchmark, but please read everything else as well. Then go out and drive one before drawing your own conclusions.
4. I haven't read one Post about (stock) CSL's or 996tt's beating 997tt's on the track. Don't you think people would be bragging about it, if it were true?
5. Why aren't you driving a CSL if you like it so much?

Where has AUM stated he really likes a CSL?

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post327905

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Jul 21, 2007 6:16:12 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Why are we even comparing these two??? The TT is not a track car. So what if the CSL is even quicker, which is not by the way

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Jul 22, 2007 5:44:47 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: edz

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

I am not interested in comparing the CSL and Turbo; they are different types of cars. The CSL is designed for track use; it weighs much less.

I am interested in retaining the relevance of the Sport Auto Ring times. They are the ONLY credible comparisons that exist.

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Jul 22, 2007 5:52:06 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

The CSL is beter compared with the GT3. The GT3 is slightly quicker but the CSL has back seats - makin it ideal for trackers with kids.

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Jul 22, 2007 6:12:48 AM

Whoopsy: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Vancouver,BC , Canada; Posts: 15512, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Thought the CSL had the rear seat deleted, like the CLK Black Series.

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Jul 22, 2007 6:47:07 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: mp

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Has BMW ever figured out how to engineer competent brakes?

Wt is only one of several factors in any car's track/NBR/HH times.....the 4000lb 599 seems to do OK, even while driver has urban-compatible ground clearance; urban fwy-relevant tq (w/o turbo lag and w/a class-leading paddleshifter tranny)....and Bluetooth/iPod, etc....if F ever figures out passive safety, P/AMG would be largely irrelevant for daily/wkend use.....

Suspect advances in chassis engineering, esp smarter/more active chassis hardware/software, esp seen in past yr in 599/CL63, have made conventional wisdom re: wt more dubious...

And I suspect 95%+ of repeat buyers of these cars drive them primarily on public roads where larger risks are being rear-ended in an emergent deceleration from high speeds on a busy urban fwy....or a head-on/frontal impact in mtn twisties....so any perf data needs to also be "risk-adjusted" for relative active/passive safety in real-world use by owners who often tend to have more to lose in life than test drivers/journalists/most non-owner casual observers/dreamers.....

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Jul 22, 2007 7:00:41 AM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: WBH

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

***I*** ???!!! Did I really just see an "I" in your post?

Never thought an "I" could make a post so less stressful to read.

It no longer sounds like it's generated by some mysterious computer in some basement somewhere. Just kidding.

Quote:
WBH said:
Has BMW ever figured ...snip...

And I suspect 95%+ of repeat buyers of these cars drive them primarily on public roads where larger risks...snip...

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Jul 22, 2007 10:10:37 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Whoopsy

Re: 997 Turbo & M3 CSL at the Ring

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Thought the CSL had the rear seat deleted, like the CLK Black Series.

The CSL has rear seats that accommodate adults in reasonable comfort. In the 7.50 Ring-time club this is rare, perhaps unique.

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