Crown

Board: AMG Mercedes Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    RC:

    Take the Panamera S and 4S for example: The 4S is faster on the track under the same conditions. Best proof actually. Smiley

    Source?

    Me. Smiley

    The Panamera S feels quicker though, which is quite interesting.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    If you don't compete, feel in more important than little difference in lap times.

    IMO, AWD drive cars give the impression of confidence and security and this could prove a drawback if the driver is not careful, especially in heavy rain where the risk of aquaplaning is still present, perhaps at a slightly higher speed. Tyres  are more vital than AWD in such conditions.

    In the dry also, a non experienced driver could handle a 911/4 with more ease and less nervousness than a 911/2, hence the demand for those models.

    Moreover, if some manufacturers make RWD cars without adequate traction (like the AMG or the M5 for example according to some posts) this is a bad chassis design and weight distribution rather than the fault of the configuration.

    If I want AWD I buy a SUV that also has ground clearance and a commanding  driving position that could also contribute to safety in bad weather.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Furthermore, I would like to add that I wouldn't track race the Panamera, maybe just for some fun with a group but never anything serious. The Panamera is not a car I want to take to the track.

    For me, AWD has the advantage of making it easier to be fast. Of course this can be dangerous because every good driver actually knows that AWD can't beat physics, it can just extend the safety net a little bit. So taking advantage of AWD in such occasions can be as dangerous as driving a RWD car at the limit, so this is a win/win or loose/loose situation for good drivers. On the other hand, AWD gives me a piece of mind, especially when it rains or snows.

    I know that many drivers look at AWD as a fun killer but 1. Porsche has a RWD behavior oriented setup and 2. it requires a very good driver to actually feel the difference between the same car with or without AWD.

    The new 991 is a very good example for that: Drive a Carrera S without the Power Steering Plus and then a 4S with Power Steering Plus. Most people will actually say that the Carrera S feels heavier and less agile. 

    Btw: My Panamera Turbo S feels heavy and comfortable(even with the sportiest chassis setup you can feel the suspension work, which is sometimes quite annoying because it gives you the feel of a heavy car) when driving straight but as soon as you drive through some twists and turns, the character changes completely and the car feels like a 911. I actually do not like this setup, I wish the PTS would feel the same going straight but apparently Porsche was worried that Panamera drivers would complaint about comfort. I wouldn't. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:

    Hold your horses indecision

    There is one force between the tire and the road surface, the tractional force. It acts in the horizontal plane where one axis represents lateral grip (or cornering grip) and the other axis represents longitudinal grip (or braking/accelerating grip). You can use all this force for braking/accelerating or all this force for cornering or a combination of both. The sum is however constant. Hence, if you brake or accelerate you have less cornering grip available. Why is this important?

    Well, for an AWD car the front wheels are not only used for cornering grip, they are also used for accelerating grip. Hence, when you drive an AWD car on the limit and apply throttle, you have less cornering grip available on the front wheels than a RWD car where the front wheels are free rolling.

    AWD is an advantage when the cornering grip is small and the front wheels apply accelerating grip. For example, starting from standstill in snow. It is not an advantage when driving on the limit on a race track. The car will be more prone to understeer and cannot follow the ideal (fast) line.

    Ignoring the weight penalty, this is the reason why the GT2, GT3, etc. are RWD... and all other race cars for that matter (rally cars is a difference story because they are driven beyond the traction limit).

    As one Porsche instructor once put it at a PSDS course when asked about RWD versus AWD "I want my rear wheels to drive and my front wheels to steer

    Hence I am not convinced about the statement that the Panamera is 10 seconds faster around the Ring than the M5 thanks to it's AWD. It is 10 seconds faster for other reasons and a RWD Panamera should be even faster.

    ...and the physics behind the above is usually not understood by people and hence the common misunderstanding is that AWD cars are safer because they always offer more traction. This is however only true for the accelerating grip, not for the cornering grip which in a AWD car can be less than a RWD car (assuming all other things equal).

    Amen to that! Smiley


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    RC:
    bluelines:

    Hence I am not convinced about the statement that the Panamera is 10 seconds faster around the Ring than the M5 thanks to it's AWD. It is 10 seconds faster for other reasons and a RWD Panamera should be even faster.

     

    It is. Porsche actually uses the excessive weight of the Panamera combined with the AWD traction advantage for that achievement. Sport Auto has actually described it pretty well when they tested the PTS and were surprised about the track performance. Lots of electronics are involved in this process too.

    You are comparing cars with much lower weight with cars with a much higher weight, huge mistake.

    The lower the weight, the more the car benefits from RWD actually.

    Take the Panamera S and 4S for example: The 4S is faster on the track under the same conditions. Best proof actually. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    In my opinion, RC is correct to state that the AWD car is faster than RWD car....just imagine how often do you know that the RWD car is on the limit during cornering? Remember that the RWD car only have lateral grip on their front wheels. As for the AWD car, their front wheels efficiency can be maximized if the lateral grip is not on their limit, it can be used to accelerate or decelerate. as Bluelines said, as long as the resultant is the same.

    So, in AWD car, their front wheels can have more choices depend on the situation.Smiley


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    It really depends on the car and the setup and of course the driver but AWD hasn't been banned from most major racing series worldwide for no reason. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    RC:

    It really depends on the car and the setup and of course the driver but AWD hasn't been banned from most major racing series worldwide for no reason. 

    Why would they ban AWD from racing purely because it would generate faster laptimes? If AWD would really have a positive effect on laptimes, I would think they would promote it in racing instead of what is the case at present.

     


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    ...and anyway, assuming everybody would use 4WD in racing it wouldn't be a case of banning it because it favoured one or two teams against others who didn't have It. 4WD is banned along with ABS, active chassis and other technical features, because the organisers want racing to be as "pure" as possible.

    Nevertheless, the fastest car around is the Nissan GT-R which is both heavy and AWD. This proves that nothing is set in stone.

    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Porker:
    RC:

    It really depends on the car and the setup and of course the driver but AWD hasn't been banned from most major racing series worldwide for no reason. 

    Why would they ban AWD from racing purely because it would generate faster laptimes? If AWD would really have a positive effect on laptimes, I would think they would promote it in racing instead of what is the case at present.

     

    Simple: It would give manufacturers who already know/developed AWD technology and electronics very well a huge advantage and of course it would make motorsports much more expensive.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    reginos:

    Nevertheless, the fastest car around is the Nissan GT-R which is both heavy and AWD. This proves that nothing is set in stone.

    Sport Auto claims that Porsche used some sort of physics/development tricks to make the Panamera as fast as it is on the track, by actually using it's weight in it's advantage. Apparently the GT-R development boss claims something similar, so maybe there is some truth in it. Not sure why they wouldn't share this with the public but apparently this is something which they are going to exploit with other products too.

    Fact is: Both, the PTS and the GT-R are incredibly fast on the track, despite their weight. So there is something behind the claims, especially if you look at the competition.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    It is also a fact that if you want to make a car quicker round a track you take away weight and 4WD. smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

    It is also a fact that if you want to make a car quicker round a track you take away weight and 4WD. smiley

    Example?


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    RC:
    REALZEUS:

    It is also a fact that if you want to make a car quicker round a track you take away weight and 4WD. smiley

    Example?

    I think that the 911 Turbo vs the 911 GT2 (all generations) is the best example. The same applies to C2 vs C4 models. Also the FWD V6 Alfas are considerably quicker than their 4WD brethren. Finally, Ferrari has said that the 4WD system in the FF is not helping the car round a track (they say that it would be quicker without it) and it is useful only in adverse weather.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    So, a 2WD GT-R would have been even faster? i am confused about the relative efficiency of the two systems and which is more suitable under differing conditions, when I think about the performance of good examples of both systems.

    Many things are subjective I think and many non-professional drivers are more confident in a 4WD car because it feels more planted and because the car drives them more than they drive the car. 

    Being free to choose is a great thing.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:
     

    I think that the 911 Turbo vs the 911 GT2 (all generations) is the best example. The same applies to C2 vs C4 models. Also the FWD V6 Alfas are considerably quicker than their 4WD brethren. Finally, Ferrari has said that the 4WD system in the FF is not helping the car round a track (they say that it would be quicker without it) and it is useful only in adverse weather.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    You are making a mistake here: The 911 GT2 has not been based on the 911 Turbo in the past but on the GT3. 

    There is a difference between a car which has been specifically designed with AWD and another one which has been specifically designed with RWD only.

    Why do you think that traction control technologies were banned from the Formula One? It doesn't take much to understand that you can actually program yourself a basic ELECTRONIC AWD system just with traction control technology.
     

    Weight? Are you kidding me? 50 kg for very advanced AWD systems is a ridiculous weight increase. Don't forget that many race cars in certain racing series actually ADD weight by purpose to fullfill the weight requirements.

    Please do not compare Apples to Oranges.

    If Porsche would want to build a 911 Turbo which is by far superior to the GT2 with the same power output, they could do it. The question is: Why would they? Things like RWD, lower weight and manual transmission still give people the illusion of driving a real race car...of the past. Smiley With electronics nowadays, you can make a lot of artificial adjustments and some manufacturers actually do.

    Marketing (and a little bit of "illusion" based on their racing tradition) is VITAL for a company like Porsche. They would be dumb not to exploit it as much as possible.

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    There is no point in this. We clearly disagree.

    PS: What does traction control have to do with 4WD? heart


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

    There is no point in this. We clearly disagree.

    Don't mess with the boss Smiley Even when the boss is wrong he is right.

    I am happy have finally been enlightened about the AWD superior over RWD. Not only have I learned that the known physics and friction circle are incorrect, but also the feedback from a professional race driver and serious track enthusiasts is wrong. Now I know the truth. Cheers to that! SmileySmiley


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    RC:
    With electronics nowadays, you can make a lot of artificial adjustments and some manufacturers actually do.

    Yes, but you cannot alter physics. Yet! Smiley When PQTM (Porsche Quantum Traction Management) is ready this will be the case. I heard it might be available as an option already next year.

    There is a limit to the traction. Electronics does not raise that limit. It enables you to explore that limit with less experience and effort. Regardless if it is a RWD or AWD car.

     


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    REALZEUS:

    There is no point in this. We clearly disagree.

    Don't mess with the boss Smiley Even when the boss is wrong he is right.

    I am happy have finally been enlightened about the AWD superior over RWD. Not only have I learned that the known physics and friction circle are incorrect, but also the feedback from a professional race driver and serious track enthusiasts is wrong. Now I know the truth. Cheers to that! SmileySmiley

    Smiley Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Porker:
    bluelines:

    Hold your horses indecision

    There is one force between the tire and the road surface, the tractional force. It acts in the horizontal plane where one axis represents lateral grip (or cornering grip) and the other axis represents longitudinal grip (or braking/accelerating grip). You can use all this force for braking/accelerating or all this force for cornering or a combination of both. The sum is however constant. Hence, if you brake or accelerate you have less cornering grip available. Why is this important?

    Well, for an AWD car the front wheels are not only used for cornering grip, they are also used for accelerating grip. Hence, when you drive an AWD car on the limit and apply throttle, you have less cornering grip available on the front wheels than a RWD car where the front wheels are free rolling.

    AWD is an advantage when the cornering grip is small and the front wheels apply accelerating grip. For example, starting from standstill in snow. It is not an advantage when driving on the limit on a race track. The car will be more prone to understeer and cannot follow the ideal (fast) line.

    Ignoring the weight penalty, this is the reason why the GT2, GT3, etc. are RWD... and all other race cars for that matter (rally cars is a difference story because they are driven beyond the traction limit).

    As one Porsche instructor once put it at a PSDS course when asked about RWD versus AWD "I want my rear wheels to drive and my front wheels to steer

    Hence I am not convinced about the statement that the Panamera is 10 seconds faster around the Ring than the M5 thanks to it's AWD. It is 10 seconds faster for other reasons and a RWD Panamera should be even faster.

    ...and the physics behind the above is usually not understood by people and hence the common misunderstanding is that AWD cars are safer because they always offer more traction. This is however only true for the accelerating grip, not for the cornering grip which in a AWD car can be less than a RWD car (assuming all other things equal).

    Amen to that! Smiley


    Hm,

    there is a little flaw in your logic. Assuming you perform the same manouver as described above, the driven wheels on a RWD (or FWD car as well) have to transmit all driving forces over two wheels whereas AWD cars can spread the same given force on four of them.

    Should you already be driving on the very limit of adhesion, this would cause the AWD car to get into a slip angle that is rather defined by the power distribution and accompanying suspension setting than anything else. Admittedly, it is far more challenging to setup a AWD car than a car with only one driven axle, and even further affected when the car features an active power distribution. 

    Should you, what is assumedly rather the case on a public street, be driving near the limit of adhesion the power spread on all four wheels might keep the addition of those forces within the circle of forces (Kamm´s circle). On the FWD or RWD car, that amount of power might already exceed this circle and result in slip at the driven wheels and consequently under- or oversteer. 

    The "experience" that I assume RC is referring to is due to the fact that the AWD car might get into a slipping motion over all four wheels which is much harder to control than over- and understeer.

    Smiley


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Yes, correct. That is what I meant with AWD being beneficial when the required cornering grip is small (i.e. as a result of a small slip angle) and the front wheels can apply accelerating grip up to the limit of the friction circle. It is not a flaw, it is is a feature indecision

    That is great on a public road where accelerating hard and close to a straight line. On a track where you (in theory) drive the ideal line on the limit there is no room for accelerating grip on the front wheels. With clever electronic diffs and torque vectoring the car can of course try to maximise the accelerating grip without exceeding the limit from the cornering grip. I guess that is why the GT-R is scoring such good times.

    Of course the discussion is all academic and in real life there are more factors in play. 

     


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:

    That is great on a public road where accelerating hard and close to a straight line. On a track where you (in theory) drive the ideal line on the limit there is no room for accelerating grip on the front wheels. With clever electronic diffs and torque vectoring the car can of course try to maximise the accelerating grip without exceeding the limit from the cornering grip. I guess that is why the GT-R is scoring such good times.

    Of course the discussion is all academic and in real life there are more factors in play. 


    That´s the catch though... how could you accelerate a RWD car out of a corner when you are already at the limit of adhesion.. yet, as you say, unable to do so in an AWD car? Smiley

    You would gradually apply more power as, according to the circle of friction, the cornering (or transveral) forces are reduced and leave more room for longitudinal forces. That is the same for both drivetrain concepts, yet you can apply more power in the AWD car since a. you can spread it onto four instead of two wheels and b. at the exit of the corner I believe that the cornering grip of the rear axle is far more important... hence a certain amount of grip might be available at the front axle anyhow.

    It was mentioned somewhere above that the lack of AWD in road racing is due to the lack of competitiveness but any series that featured cars with that drivetrain configuration with otherwise similar specs has shown that layout to be significantly more competitive, especially in touring cars.

    Just now I do realize that we occupied Avoe´s thread about the C63 so I humbly apologize and return to his beautiful pictures in autumn colours.

     Smiley


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    That is the catch... once you do open the steering and accelerate you will have to open it more on the AWD than the RWD because you need to compensate the accelerating force on the front wheels with less cornering force (to remain within the friction circle). This results in the AWD car running wide outside the ideal line.

    In this situation the rear wheels are not that much of a concern due to the weight transfer. It is the front wheels that are important.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    REALZEUS:

    There is no point in this. We clearly disagree.

    Don't mess with the boss Smiley Even when the boss is wrong he is right.

    I am happy have finally been enlightened about the AWD superior over RWD. Not only have I learned that the known physics and friction circle are incorrect, but also the feedback from a professional race driver and serious track enthusiasts is wrong. Now I know the truth. Cheers to that! SmileySmiley

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     

    To which is on. AWD gives indeed a more secure driving feel while RWD is the way to go if you really want to have a more demanding and rewarding driving experience. So much more fun provided with RWD  I would only consider  AWD on a SUV.

    J.Seven


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    kiss - awd is fantastic out of hairpins on twisty "slow" corners - but I am clearly with bluelines here indecision


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    kiss - awd is fantastic out of hairpins on twisty "slow" corners - but I am clearly with bluelines here indecision

    Of course you are. Like bluelines, you don't have a clue about modern AWD systems. Smiley

    Or to use Walter Röhrl's words: "Everything, but AWD, is a compromise."

    I am glad to prove my point to you next spring...in person. I think this is the best way to do it. And REALZEUS can join us too...in his Ford Fiesta. Smiley

    Just imagine KERS and AWD in a F1 car...it would be unbeatable.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    REALZEUS:

    There is no point in this. We clearly disagree.

    Don't mess with the boss Smiley Even when the boss is wrong he is right.

    When you have no more arguments, this seems to be your standard message. Make it personal. Smiley

    Great! Smiley I'm glad a Ford Fiesta driver seems to agree with you. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    I wonder, what is wrong with driving a Ford Fiesta? Does that impede one's knowledge about vehicle dynamics? angry


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Porker:

    I wonder, what is wrong with driving a Ford Fiesta? Does that impede one's knowledge about vehicle dynamics? angry

    Well...do you really want me to answer this without hurting anyone's feelings? Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Say hello to a new "AMG Forum Member"... Thread Closed

    Porker:

    I wonder, what is wrong with driving a Ford Fiesta? 

    The  local petrol station might consider it wrong, too indecision


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    676830 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    310748 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 11/24/22 7:47 PM
    RCA
    207566 1250
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 11/9/22 4:37 PM
    Joost
    193393 434
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    176954 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    117910 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/25/22 8:11 AM
    M3ike
    48170 67
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    511794 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    467045 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/26/22 5:35 PM
    TB993tt
    462329 3783
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    220904 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/30/22 11:46 AM
    Wonderbar
    219033 1446
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    190542 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    186604 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 10/27/22 2:59 PM
    Leawood911
    181446 1863
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    180446 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    154374 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    151249 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    147492 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    134083 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    130932 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    129248 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    128461 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    127049 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 11/23/22 5:52 PM
    Enmanuel
    117538 1553
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    98124 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    97505 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    94903 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    69922 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31284 438
    178 items found, displaying 1 to 30.