Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Are we getting hosed? - Page1

Jan 23, 2007 3:04:28 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002

Are we getting hosed?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/22/report-porsche-profits-28000-per-car/

Funny thing is that I just bought a 2007 VW GTI with DSG transmission and a 2.0 liter turbo FSI engine as my beater car. I am shocked how good a car this new GTI is and I paid 24K for it. Eureka- Porsche's are overpriced

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Jan 23, 2007 3:33:33 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: Are we getting hosed?

This so called "analysis" is BS. But the BS seems to have spread around the world.
Obviously Porsche felt the urge to react by issuing an own press release yesterday (BTW it does not happen very often, that PAG issues own press releases as an answer to any misleading press articles).

http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2007-01-23
If you consider extraordinary and financial items in PAG's P&L a pre-tax profit range of 10-12k Euro (per car/average) seems to be more realistic (just my own analysis - definitely not 100% correct, but closer to the real figure).

Having said that PAG's earnings per car still are way above other carmakers, though this is not really new. I guess it's just the enormous jump in profits shown for FY 05/06 which caught the attention of some journalists. But - as said before - this big jump is mainly due to one-off income and financial income.

However you're right, that the GTI provides stunning performance as a daily beater for the fraction of the price for a Porsche - but that has been true also in the old days, when the first GTI generation has been launched (actually I loved the first GTI generation - no comparison with the heavy weight GTIs of today - just another parallel to P-cars

)

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Jan 23, 2007 3:42:34 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59078, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Are we getting hosed?

Compared to BMW or other companies, Porsche's earnings per sold car are still at least 5x higher.

Porsche should earn money and even a lot of money. The only thing I don't like about them right now is that
A. they're slowly becoming a mass producer
B. they don't offer a much better quality than BMW or Audi for example but still charge 5 times more
C. they're not ahead of the "competition" anymore like in the "old" days

Sorry but if they continue this way and if Porsche becomes another BMW, I better stick with the cheaper one of both.

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Jan 23, 2007 3:54:32 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Are we getting hosed?

That is what was said over on some threads in the porsche board. They are living off their old reputation watering down the brand with uninspiring designs and lackluster performance (in relation to the competition). The panamera will determine whether they head down or stay Porsche.

Who is making the model decisions? 1 guy or a group, and what are they thinking?

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Jan 23, 2007 3:57:05 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Are we getting hosed?

It just shows you that P doesn't really have any competitor and they can charge whatever they want. The cars are perceived to be that good.

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Jan 23, 2007 4:15:28 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13628, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: Are we getting hosed?

I would never say "I told you so". Lets just say, "I saw this first".

All joking aside, Porsche through its present management team has done a wonderful job in exploiting its very devoted customer base. Like the rest of you, I believe profits are a priority item for any company. Where I disagree with Porsche management is the concept "make the customers give until it hurts them and not us." So far they have juggled this very well. Nevertheless ,the day of reckoning is coming sooner than most people think.

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Jan 23, 2007 4:30:12 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Are we getting hosed?

I wouldn't mind it so much if Porsche Customer Service (both dealer and 1 800 Porsche) bent over backwards to make us happy.

I have questions about my patricular car which nobody will give me a satisfactory answer about. I want to order interior parts (for customization) and was told Porsche won't sell them.

My next car (current 06 997S) is a Turbo (I'm planning on it), but now I'm getting turned off by of all the bling bling body styling (wings, plastic inserts, "aggressive" as design inspiration). Either I'm outgrowing Porsche or they're outgrowing me.

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Jan 23, 2007 4:44:13 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: nberry

sorry, but F car owners can't gloat

the main difference is that the Italians let their dealers steal all the profits by enabling the ridiculous markups over list price

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Jan 23, 2007 4:49:55 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: MMD

I drove an Audi S8 the other day

and again was amazed at the level of sophistication and quality you get for 100K. Maybe the R8 will affect Porsche, but I think that Audi is going to learn from the Ferrari playbook and limit the numbers produced to keep the profits high.

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Jan 23, 2007 4:58:40 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Imagine if Porsche put another $20k worth of content and technology into each car

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Jan 23, 2007 5:52:15 PM

thuggy: Veteran; Loc: PA & CA , United States; Posts: 825, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Well, I'm amazed by how much my little "base" BMW X3 has that my range topping TT does not or was extra... Bluetooth, Auto Headlights, thick steering wheel, Ipod, no wonder profit is high! But I do not feel short changed on performance ;-)

Wonder what Ferrari's true profit per vehicle is (taking out F1 spend)...

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Jan 23, 2007 6:12:14 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: thuggy

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

But why would they do any different? At least on the 911 they have no real competition at their price point for the whole package. Maybe the R8 comes close, but it lacks the two back seats which rules out half of the 911 buyers, and will be in small volume.

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Jan 23, 2007 6:30:35 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13628, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster. Yet the cost after options etc. usually is almost twice as much. That my friends is how you make the money Porsche makes on its cars. Buyer be damned!

AND YET...buyers continue to buy. Last week at the Porsche dealership they had a white 997GT3 on the floor with a MSRP of $140,000.

Later in the day it was sold to an older woman and the salesperson had to take her for a ride to show her how to operate the car.

Alan, US Ferrari dealers get very few cars and to survive they need to resell each car almost 4 times. That is what exclusiveness does. However, Ferrari clients benefit because their cost of ownership is almost nil.

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Jan 23, 2007 6:36:26 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

At least she didn't pay $50k + OVER MSRP like for a F430 spider...

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Jan 23, 2007 7:27:49 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
SciFrog said:
At least she didn't pay $50k + OVER MSRP like for a F430 spider...

50k? More like 150k

.

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Jan 23, 2007 9:06:49 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
nberry said:
Later in the day it was sold to an older woman and the salesperson had to take her for a ride to show her how to operate the car.

Ferrari clients benefit because their cost of ownership is almost nil.

Way to go, Nick.

Maybe you should get your salesperson to take you for a ride to show you how to operate the car when you pick up your next Ferrari.

Then you could benefit from DRIVING your Ferrari, instead of just from "nil cost of ownership".

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Jan 23, 2007 9:17:38 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: eclou

Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

Yachting is a luxury and it is very expensive. EVERYthing is over-priced. BUT the people who CAN afford it don't notice it. Same would be true of intercontinental private aircraft.

Jerry Seinfeld or some Hollywood moviestar could care less that us$20K is an overcharge by Porsche.

It's just that "the rest of us" are used to getting good value in a car. A car is supposed to be practical necessity for most people in the western world.

Problem is Porsche is a LUXURY item and you are going to have to pay ALOT more to get it.

Is it worth it?

No- if you really can't afford luxury.

Yes- if you can.

Again, the fact that Porsche is a CAR is what's confusing; you'd think a car would be a "good value," and "fairly priced." Maybe think again... .

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Jan 23, 2007 9:26:29 PM

LB: Senior; Loc: Spain; Posts: 622, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 2, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

I have to disagree with the latter comment.

Porsche maybe conceived to be a luxury item however it is still affordable sports car. It is more rolex than Audemars Piguet.

The only thing that annoys me about porsche is all the extra options one is "forced" to acquire in order to recieve a decent car. Hence why i have never and will never be interested in purchasing a Porsche.

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Jan 23, 2007 9:33:57 PM

Atzporsche: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Vancouver , Canada; Posts: 9118, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 7, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

Quote:
MMD said:
Yachting is a luxury and it is very expensive. EVERYthing is over-priced. BUT the people who CAN afford it don't notice it. Same would be true of intercontinental private aircraft.

Jerry Seinfeld or some Hollywood moviestar could care less that us$20K is an overcharge by Porsche.

It's just that "the rest of us" are used to getting good value in a car. A car is supposed to be practical necessity for most people in the western world.

Problem is Porsche is a LUXURY item and you are going to have to pay ALOT more to get it.

Is it worth it?

No- if you really can't afford luxury.

Yes- if you can.

Again, the fact that Porsche is a CAR is what's confusing; you'd think a car would be a "good value," and "fairly priced." Maybe think again... .

I agree. If they would make Porsche like 20% cheaper it would not be Porsche anymore, they have to keep it at a certain level in order to maintain their status. Porsche's always had the edge that make people buy them and enjoy them. I'd love to buy a new Porsche BUT i can't afford one and in my struggle to get one ill appreciate it so much i wont care about how much i paid, but that I have it hehe. This might be applicable to many P owners.

I just watched topgear test the 997 carrera S against the M6 and the new baby Austin and the Porsche totally destroyed them in a simple road test stretch!

I hear all these comments about Porsche's not performing too well anymore but i think they still are doing pretty well. They just have a perfect way of knowing how much technology to put in EXACTLY to be able to still make sales while keeping costs low, therefore increasing profits.

I have faith in the Panamera, it will showcase Porsches yet again and be expensive of course.

just my two cents

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Jan 23, 2007 9:44:02 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59078, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

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Jan 23, 2007 10:23:29 PM

Over the Hill: Pilot; Loc: Bellevue, Washington, USA; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2006; Reply to: LB

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

The only thing that annoys me about porsche is all the extra options one is "forced" to acquire in order to recieve a decent car. Hence why i have never and will never be interested in purchasing a Porsche.

I'm relatively new to this board, but I'm curious as to why you bother to post (300+) to this board if you're not interested in owning a Porsche. Don't the Ferrari owners have a forum on which to complain?

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Jan 23, 2007 10:42:05 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Atzporsche

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

Quote:
Atzporsche said:
I just watched topgear test the 997 carrera S against the M6 and the new baby Austin and the Porsche totally destroyed them in a simple road test stretch!

Baby Austin? Was that an A30 or the "higher powered" A35?

Thought we'd heard the end of the Austin brand-name when MG Rover was sold to the Chinese.

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Jan 23, 2007 11:54:08 PM

amazon: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Belgium , Belgium; Posts: 2108, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 5, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

It seems to me that ferrari does the same as porsche.

Extra leather where you can't even see it will result in few thousands bucks. Want Flappy padldle ? that's what, 7 or 8K. Ferrari knows that 80% of F430 will come out the factory with that tranny. That's a rip-off too. The tip is "only" 3K on a porsche. Yes it's not the same thing, but we're talking about money here, not about the technology.

Anyway, all manufacturers make the big buck on options. And I really doubt porsche is making such money on every sell.

I don't even know why I wrote this because everyone knows that. I must be tired.

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Jan 23, 2007 11:58:15 PM

moto: Senior; Loc: London, UK; Posts: 608, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 8, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Atzporsche said:
I just watched topgear test the 997 carrera S against the M6 and the new baby Austin and the Porsche totally destroyed them in a simple road test stretch!

Baby Austin? Was that an A30 or the "higher powered" A35?

Thought we'd heard the end of the Austin brand-name when MG Rover was sold to the Chinese.

I think he meant Aston Martin!
The 997S vs M6 vs AMV8 episode!

LINK HERE

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Jan 24, 2007 12:53:15 AM

Charlie997tt: Newbie; Loc: Bremerton WA USA; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2006; Reply to: moto

Re: Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

I'll whine as well. BMW and Audi make several fantastic cars in the 50-100k range. I don't think a 997tt is "worth" two Audi RS4s. Without thinking about it too hard and dissecting the details, from a purely gut perspective, that feels disconnected from reality.

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Jan 24, 2007 1:04:43 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13628, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

RC I believe Weidenking (?) gave marching orders that the 911 and Boxster lines were to share at least 50% parts. If that has changed, I am not aware of it.

BTW why is Ferrari brought into this discussion?

Totally different market. Porsche is for the masses and Ferrari for the higher end market.

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Jan 24, 2007 1:49:51 AM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

RC I believe Weidenking (?) gave marching orders that the 911 and Boxster lines were to share at least 50% parts. If that has changed, I am not aware of it.

BTW why is Ferrari brought into this discussion? Totally different market. Porsche is for the masses and Ferrari for the higher end market.

I agree, porsche is for the masses who love to drive reliable cars and ferrari is for the high end who like to watch them in their garage. Keep watching while I'll keep driving

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Jan 24, 2007 2:02:18 AM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
aah986 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

RC I believe Weidenking (?) gave marching orders that the 911 and Boxster lines were to share at least 50% parts. If that has changed, I am not aware of it.

BTW why is Ferrari brought into this discussion? Totally different market. Porsche is for the masses and Ferrari for the higher end market.

I agree, porsche is for the masses who love to drive reliable cars and ferrari is for the high end who like to watch them in their garage. Keep watching while I'll keep driving

Nick is "Berry" full of fertilizer...the high on organic material type

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Jan 24, 2007 2:39:23 AM

thuggy: Veteran; Loc: PA & CA , United States; Posts: 825, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
nberry said:
BTW need I remind you that the 911 shares 50% of its parts with the Boxster.

The 997 Carrera and the Boxster share 15%, at max. Just for the book. It was different with the 996 and the 986 (Boxster), they shared 40% or so, I don't have the precise figure in my head anymore.

Sorry, Nick but although I agree that Porsche is somehow "ripping" off customers, they're not THAT bad.

RC I believe Weidenking (?) gave marching orders that the 911 and Boxster lines were to share at least 50% parts. If that has changed, I am not aware of it.

BTW why is Ferrari brought into this discussion? Totally different market. Porsche is for the masses and Ferrari for the higher end market.

Masses! You crack me up!!!!

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Jan 24, 2007 3:32:19 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: I drove an Audi S8 the other day

Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche is for the masses and Ferrari for the higher end market.

Nah... . Regardless of income or net worth, it's easier to see it this way:

Ferrari is an astronomically expensive car (to own and maintain)

Porsche is an extremely expensive car (to O&M)

BMW is a very expensive car (to o&m)

Honda, Nissan, etc is ... .

Ford and GM etc is... .

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Are we getting hosed?

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sorry, but F car owners can't gloat

I drove an Audi S8 the other day

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Porsche is a TRUE LUXURY ITEM

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