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    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Wonderbar:

    Wonderful information in this particular Forum, thanks to all.

    Can anyone post when Porsche made the decision to halt the LeMans program (1998?), and why (both the "official line" and the real reasons?  I am researching a long article and would love some facts and/or references to pursue.  

    Thanks...

     

    P.S. I have some press kit pics of the 919 and 991 RSR, if someone wants me to post.  They may be old news, but let me know...

     Lets say I am very close to some people who were factory drivers in those days. Internally, the program was stopped because the car was too slow. They got lucky with the overall win in 98 (not my words!).
    Then Wiedeking stopped all program in racing except GTs and focused on the Cayenne. He wasn't much of a racing fan unfortunately.

     


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Also, possibly, because they wanted to raise their revenues they have closed an expensive racing program and went cayenne way. Also, there were some rumors that decision to close lmp1 2000 project was because of Audi participation with R8. Even today Porsche officially says that this car was never build, but 1 chassis exists i believe. Not sure about cancellation because of being too slow. 

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/porschelmp1.html

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov13.html

    But thanks to cancellation of LMP1 2000 we had CGT with engine which was exceptional for road car.

    Porsche gt1 1998 was amazingly well designed car built with a budget of around 50 mil dollars compared to 300-400 mil dollars invested by Mercedes and Toyota (unfortunately I cant make a reference for these numbers, heard about them around 8-10 years ago), but regulations for FIA GT (basically GT1 1998 is a sportsprototype, but due to regulations it was related to GT cars) were very strict for turboengines - too much power restrictions...FIA wasn't glad with Porsche dominance in racing...

    Wonderbar, could you please send me the press kits of 919 and 911?smiley. My e-mail is krupensky@yandex.ru


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Futch:

     Lets say I am very close to some people who were factory drivers in those days. Internally, the program was stopped because the car was too slow. They got lucky with the overall win in 98 (not my words!).
     

     

    I saw them run in 1998 at Laguna Seca and they were definitely "slower" than the Mercedes on that track....


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Futch:
    Wonderbar:

    Wonderful information in this particular Forum, thanks to all.

    Can anyone post when Porsche made the decision to halt the LeMans program (1998?), and why (both the "official line" and the real reasons?  I am researching a long article and would love some facts and/or references to pursue.  

    Thanks...

     Lets say I am very close to some people who were factory drivers in those days. Internally, the program was stopped because the car was too slow. They got lucky with the overall win in 98 (not my words!).
    Then Wiedeking stopped all program in racing except GTs and focused on the Cayenne. He wasn't much of a racing fan unfortunately.

    kudryavchik:

    Also, possibly, because they wanted to raise their revenues they have closed an expensive racing program and went cayenne way. Also, there were some rumors that decision to close lmp1 2000 project was because of Audi participation with R8. Even today Porsche officially says that this car was never build, but 1 chassis exists i believe. Not sure about cancellation because of being too slow. 

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/porschelmp1.html

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov13.html

    But thanks to cancellation of LMP1 2000 we had CGT with engine which was exceptional for road car.

    Porsche gt1 1998 was amazingly well designed car built with a budget of around 50 mil dollars compared to 300-400 mil dollars invested by Mercedes and Toyota (unfortunately I cant make a reference for these numbers, heard about them around 8-10 years ago), but regulations for FIA GT (basically GT1 1998 is a sportsprototype, but due to regulations it was related to GT cars) were very strict for turboengines - too much power restrictions...FIA wasn't glad with Porsche dominance in racing...


    The above is my understanding as well. First of all, Porsche had a comparatively small budget whereas Mercedes and Toyota were able to channel far more money into their racing projects. That already shows in the ´96 GT1 using the front end of the regular 993 and a tube-frame chassis whereas those rivals already used full-carbon monocoques on their cars. I actually remember an interview with Uwe Alzen back then who complained about that very fact and the inferior position of Porsche´s entry back then. They rectified this with the ´98 version which was their first race car with full-carbon chassis as well. 

    I guess Mercedes´ dominance in FIA races and at Le Mans back then was due to their budget and some favorable decisions in rules, especially regarding charged/naturally-aspirated engines. Considering the state Porsche was in back then, it is even more impressive that they developed an entirely new model with carbon chassis and ran their cars in an international racing series (although most races were in Europe). The return-on-investment must´ve been very low anyhow.

    The speed of the 911 GT1 might have been the very reason why Porsche quit GT1 racing at the end of ´98 but I believe that it was rather primarily by Mercedes dominance in ´97 and ´98. Objectively, the 911 GT1 might have been a proper and fast race car but the effort necessary to elevate it to the performance level of the Mercedes would´ve been inappropriate and out of question for Porsche´s financial situation back then. Mercedes was looking for another playing field after the DTM/ITC series was halted... ironically due to development costs that went out of proportion... and found the solution in the GT1 series. History repeated itself once again and not only Porsche but every other manufacturer decided to back out of the series after all. One has to realize that, while Porsche stuck with the 993 steel frontend in the beginning and used the turbocharged engine that had its origins in the 962, Mercedes developed two different engines for their cars that season, a V12 and a V8 engine, to provide the appropriate power and fuel-efficiency depending on the circuit layout.


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    The Porsche program is having MAJOR issues according to Mike Fuller


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Can you expand on this, Spyderidol?


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Unfortunately I don't have anymore information.

    There were reports that they had issues at the Sebring test and that an engine replacement had taken place. Now Mike Fuller has posted this information on FB. Porsche also completed half as many laps as Audi during that test.

    There was also a tweet from Andrew Frankel saying the following:  "How serious is Porsche about it's LM programme? Their 2015 car will be all new and they're working on it now, before the 2014 car has raced."


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    He (Mike Fuller) posted that in the Mulsanne's Corner Facebook group. He said he'll comment more on that when he gets out of his "Sebring haze."
    --


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    We have to expect some teething problems with brand new technology. This is going to be the development year for the 919. I don't have high expectations regarding results this year,


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2013 Porsche Cayenne Dark Blue Metallic, 2015 Porsche MACAN S (May 2014 Delivery) New York


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    This is more than just teething problems. The rumor is that the engine vibrations are so bad that the drivers cant even see out of the car. They have had to turn the engine down and are way off Audi's pace. Someone did bad math.



    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Read that yesterday, I don't buy it. Porsche 919 will be fine and even better as the years go by. I strongly feel that they will surprise for those who underestimate them. Porsche knows how to build race cars , they have all the resources and I doubt Porsche racers are talking to rivals about their problems if any. I'm gonna laugh when they win LM24... After all you wont see Porsche acting over confident, they want to win right out of the box.  Go Porsche!


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Unfortunately the vibrations are true. They sorted it out by the time they did the test in Portimao, but they only did half the laps Audi did at the Sebring test. Also the car spent long periods in the pits. 

    There is a possibility that these comment are referent to the period before they sorted out the vibrations. I sincerely hope so.


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    I think we are going to hear a lot of noise about the 919 as Porsche prepares for next months race and tests leading up to Le Mans. This year may be the development year for the 919. I would be very happy if they win LeMans this year, but wouldn't be disappointed. If I were a Toyota driver, I would be concerned about competing against Porsche. Two of the Porsche drivers have won LeMans and they are anxious for another overall win.


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2013 Porsche Cayenne Dark Blue Metallic, 2015 Porsche MACAN S (May 2014 Delivery) New York



    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Secrets of the Porsche 919 Hybrid Racer Explained...

     
    Porsche isn’t messing around with its new Porsche 919 Hybrid race car. For starters, they’ve built a slippery, aerodynamic racer and hired Formula 1 ace (and damn near 2010 World Driver’s Champion) Mark Webber to drive the thing at this year’s 24 hour LeMans race. Next, they’ve designed the car that is able to harness more of the potential energy in gasoline than anything else. How did they do it? Read on.
     
    I’ve never met the Truth About Cars’ Ronnie Screiber, but all evidence suggest that he is a clever cat. As he points out in his own, highly-detailed Porsche article, gasoline contains about 116,000 btu/gal. That means we have a significant number of BTUs that we can turn into energy, even in an internal combustion engine with theoretical maximum efficiency of 37%. That means that, even under ideal conditions, nearly 2/3 of all the energy in a gallon of gasoline is either wasted or lost as heat.
     
    To begin getting some those lost BTUs back, Porsche went down the same path as the new Formula 1 engines: turbocharging.
     
    Turbos are “spooled” by the pressure of the engine’s exhaust- a product of combustion. The exhaust gasses drive a turbine that compresses and forces more oxygen into an engine’s combustion chamber, generating greater thermal efficiency per unit of fuel than a normally aspirated (non-turbocharged) engine. In the 919 Hybrid, the turbocharged 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine is fitted with an additional and “fundamentally new” exhaust-driven device that sends power to the hybrid’s batteries.
     
    That exhaust driven turbo/hybrid charging system looks like this...
     
     
    ...and sort of sits in Porsche’s 919 Hybrid thusly...
     
     
    ...keeping the entire power-generating package light, compact, and neatly integrated underneath the car’s tightly-pulled skin...
     
     
    Now, I know that many of you looking at that cutaway are thinking that Porsche’s 919 Hybrid powertrain looks pretty small for contesting LeMans. Consider, though, that they’ll be turning as many as twice the number of available BTUs into heat energy as most of the field, so think of that 2.0 liter turbocharged V4 as more of a 4.0 liter twin-turbocharged V8 and you’ll start to get the idea. Factor in the reduced wear and tear the lighter engine will put through the tires, the extra life they’ll get out of their brake pads thanks to the regenerative braking strategies being employed, and the improved fuel economy available to Porsche’s hybrid and you might start to understand why Mark is one of the odds-on favorites to win this year’s event.
     
    It’s all pretty clever stuff, for sure- but will the new turbo/hybrid system give the new 919 enough juice to win against the dominant Audi and Toyota teams at this year’s 24? We’ll find out in June. Until then, take a look at the 919 development/livery photos below...
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    I'll post this again, as I think it is important that we get an insight on the difficulties so far encountered.

    http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/news/2014/03/porsche-das-lange-warten-auf-die-kurbelwelle-14030701.html


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    "Porsche: The long wait for the crankshaft"

    (7 March 2014)
     
    Porsche had to change the firing order in the development of V4-in turbos 919 hybrid: Availability of the new crankshaft limited test operation a somewhat
     
     
    About 500 hp coming from the V4-Turbo, another 250 hp from the hybrid systems
     
    (Motor-Total) - Porsche is on the way in the new season of the World Endurance Championship (WEC). When Auto Show in Geneva, the sports car manufacturer before not only the current version of the 911 RSR for the GTE Pro class, but the star of the booth was the Porsche 919 Hybrid, with Porsche in Le Mans 17 Wants to conquer overall victory. "The idea of the car in Geneva was a special moment," says Porsche LMP1 project manager Fritz Enzinger in conversation with 'Motor-Total'.
     
    "There were two and a half years of intensive work. First there was just the decision of Porsche, then we have two or three people in Weissach started with the simulations. Now you have the buildings, the shops, the great simulator and over 200 people in project - that's great, "says the Austrians. "We had to plan, draft, rollout and all the tests. Then if the car will be officially presented, which is obviously something very special."
     
    With pride Enzinger looks on the finished vehicle. "This is my baby, absolutely. It has no name yet," he laughs at the sight of the 919 hybrid in the final design. The "baby" had to learn to walk. This has been possible, although it in the growth phase between rollout on 12 June 2013 and an important test in Portimao last December were problems again and again. Annoying vibrations of the new 2.0-liter V4 turbos mounted deep worry lines.
     
    Vibrations make testing difficult at first
     
    "You learn precisely in such situations more clearly. Was important that we recognize immediately that there are problems. We then made changes. However, the implementation of these things is defined by the delivery times of those parts that you must have changed" , Enzinger explained in retrospect. "There were parts of it that have a delivery time of 16 weeks. Was clear to us that we have to cope somehow with our existing engine in testing to the delivery of components. That was quite difficult with these vibrations."
     
    "We had to solve these problems of vibration and a few other things. It was less pleasant to drive," Neel Jani does not mince his words. "You can already ride. It was not that us the car is immediately flown apart. However, it is difficult for us drivers. After some time, you have no feeling. Besides, it would be in a race over six or even 24 hours However, so that break or wear off the parts would. "
     
     
    Great responsibility: Fritz Enzinger leads the LMP1 project of Porsche
     
    "In the meantime it is very good. Bahrain was a great test because we did 1000 km per day. Theme vibrations is done, there is no more," added the Swiss. "The Portimao test was a very important step. Nevertheless, were the tests that we had before, never worthless," says Timo Bernhard. "When I take the stand from the rollout, then has since done so much infinite. Steps were very, very large. There were never two tests at the same level, we always had new parts."
     
    "Crucially, as the parts were finally installed and the engine was started for the first time that the vibrations were completely gone. That was the Portimao test in December. Since each has only once breathed vigorously. That was great," says Enzinger about the breakthrough in the development of the new engine, which makes 500 horsepower - plus more than 250 hp of two hybrid systems in the 919, which drive the front axle.
     
    New firing order: waiting for the crankshaft
     
    "It was really true that we had to change the firing order which meant that we needed new components -. Among other things, a new crankshaft, which is the time of Delivery precisely at 16 weeks," says the head of Porsche LMP1. "Since then you have just two or three months a few possibilities. One has with life, what you have., We have taken measures to minimize the vibrations and oscillations., But it's just then only a hermaphrodite."
     
    Although the strong vibrations of the V4 Turbos prevented a proper test run for months, so one never really presented the basic concept of the engine in question. A short-term change to a V6 turbo was never an option. "No, there was never such thoughts. We were always confident that we cope with it after the changes," said Enzinger. "The decision for the four-cylinder was already occupied by various experiments. These, we did not move away."
     
     
     
     
    Porsche 919 Hybrid LMP1 and Audi R18 e-tron Quattro diesel hybrid testing at Sebring International Raceway
     
    "I remember how we had installed the modified engine in Portimao on Friday night because everybody was curious huge Then he was let -.., And suddenly the vibrations were not only less, but they were gone," the Austrians describes the great relief in December. "Steps have since become definitely larger. Vibrations really affect the entire system greatly. During the renovation we can make normal test mode. The mileages during the tests are now highly accurate. Now it is really fun because it goes well forward."
     
    In the center of further testing the reliability of the setup, the optimal use of the fuel and the operation of the hybrid systems are available with a total of eight rich megajoules in memory. "Let's see how to run further tests. We are this week in Sebring, then end of the month in France," says Enzinger, whose team is testing simultaneously with rival Audi in Florida. "And if we now meet in Sebring, or somewhat later in France to Audi, really makes no difference."
     

    http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/news/2014/03/porsche-das-lange-warten-auf-die-kurbelwelle-14030701.html

    Very interesting article - thanks Spyderidol!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Audi drops electric turbocharger - they say - not efficient and unreliable...

    http://www.statesman.com/news/sports/motor-sports/audi-sport-returns-to-circuit-of-the-americas-for-/nfGKB/


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch14.html

     

    This is now getting quite disconcerting.laugh


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Spyderidol:

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch14.html

     

    This is now getting quite disconcerting.laugh

    Lets wait for races;)

    Porsche was building their team from 0 and it is normal that they haven't used RS Spyder experience. LMP2 cars are much simpler than LMP1. Also, Porsche haven't taken a part in top classes since 1998. They had to build totally new infrastructure, take new people, make them work together. It is normal process. So, you shouldn't worry too much;) Now it is quite obvious that 919 is the most technically advanced car (after introduction of r18 2014 with 2MJ) with lightest chassis (Audi engineer told today that they went 2 MJ because of weight problems with diesel - there are no materials today that will make it lighter). Maybe I am saying about tech advances too early, but I don't expect toyota to show something really new.

    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Jose Gallego Segura leaving after just a couple of months.1395849683475banghead.gif


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    News on this week's test:

    https://www.facebook.com/GTPorscheMagazinene

    1889075_646227138760231_1113472178_o.jpg

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Had to post this regarding above photo smiley


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Spyderidol:


    Jose Gallego Segura leaving after just a couple of months.1395849683475banghead.gif





    So, that means he was not good enough for them... So they will take another specialist.
    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Then who ever recruited him, needs to be put out on his/her ear too. They do not have the time to waste on staff turn-over. It has very bad consequences for the team and development as a whole.


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Spyderidol:

    Then who ever recruited him, needs to be put out on his/her ear too. They do not have the time to waste on staff turn-over. It has very bad consequences for the team and development as a whole.

    What is the source talking about Segura leaving?

    Update...yep. looked his twitter.

    Update...read some motosports staff forums. Segura is a good specialist but not as a leader. So possibly he has not proved himself. Otherwise it is impossible to react on 3 months period.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    New 1000 hp toyota TS 040. Not bad...

    http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/team/ts040-hybrid/

    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    kudryavchik:

    New 1000 hp toyota TS 040. Not bad...

    http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/team/ts040-hybrid/

    --

    sportcars-history.com

    Any idea what power output 919 is giving? And I thought the rules limited power output to 800hp with batteries?

     


    Re: Porsche Back in Le Mans with LMP1 2014

    Rules don't limit the power. Amount of fuel is limited. Porsche officially says more than 500hp for engine and more than 250hp for electroengine. But I tend to think that they have much more. Who would announce real power?)))
    --

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