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    More junior Carrera GT...

    ..than poor man's 911.

    So concludes this weeks Autocar test between the SLK55AMG and Boxster S.

    The advantage of 'working' from home today means you get all the details here first....








    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    great article thanks

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Thanks Rich C!
    Very thoughtful for our international members!
    Great article indeed!

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    "poor mans 911"... I really really hate that term when refering to the Boxster, if someone says that in front of me you are going to get areally mean look from me to say the least

    Thanks Rich Porsche did it again, the Boxster sets the standard for its class. I was expecting more improvement on the 987 Boxster over the 986 than the 997 over the 996, since the 986 was the first version of the model while the 997 has 40 years of evolution head start. Can't wait to see the coupe version as well

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    "poor mans 911"..personally, I don't give a damn as long as I know how good the car is.

    thx for the article

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    "poor mans 911"... I really really hate that term when refering to the Boxster, if someone says that in front of me you are going to get areally mean look from me to say the least

    Thanks Rich Porsche did it again, the Boxster sets the standard for its class. I was expecting more improvement on the 987 Boxster over the 986 than the 997 over the 996, since the 986 was the first version of the model while the 997 has 40 years of evolution head start. Can't wait to see the coupe version as well



    You disagree with a British magazine? I thought it was your Bible so long as it agreed with your views.

    BTW, isn't the Boxster designed to be the cheaper Porsche or poor mans 911? I thought that was the marketing segment for the car.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You disagree with a British magazine? I thought it was your Bible so long as it agreed with your views.

    BTW, isn't the Boxster designed to be the cheaper Porsche or poor mans 911? I thought that was the marketing segment for the car.





    So by applying the same logic the F430 must be the poor mans Ferrari.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    No, "poor man's 911" is derogatory and snobish and does not decribe this car only describes the person who uses this term as ignorant or superficial about sportcars. Just becuase the pricetag is lower than the 911 doens't mean that its the substitute for the 911 when you can't afford one. Those that know a little about sportcars can tell that the Boxster is a different concept than the 911, and the fact that its more affordable is only one of its many differences. Is the F430, the poor man's F575M-GTC? ... nuff said

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    No, "poor man's 911" is derogatory and snobish and does not decribe this car only describes the person who uses this term as ignorant or superficial about sportcars. Just becuase the pricetag is lower than the 911 doens't mean that its the substitute for the 911 when you can't afford one. Those that know a little about sportcars can tell that the Boxster is a different concept than the 911, and the fact that its more affordable is only one of its many differences. Is the F430, the poor man's F575M-GTC? ... nuff said







    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    I drive a 986 S...it's the poor man's 987S...There! I said it!
    I just saw a 997s on danish plates. 350,000$+ with danish taxes. Ouch!
    (A Boxster S is appr. 275,000$)
    With a pricetag like that you can call my Boxster a poor man's 911 anytime.
    But IMHO the 997 does not have the power nor the handling or looks compared to the 987 to justify spending that extra money.

    Personally I would seriously pick the 987 Boxster over the 997 anyday based on looks and handling alone. Powerwise the 911 is still superior, no doubt.
    Just a pity that one usually cannot make this argument without being accused of being envious of 911-owners, or simply being too poor to afford "the real thing".
    The only other Porsche I aspire to is the CGT....but thats a totally different ballpark (2mio $ in Denmark...Yikes!)

    Could I afford a 600,000$ Ferrari 360 Spider (the 430 is simply too ugly IMO) that would be my next car Sorry guys! Line me up before a firing squad...guilty as charged for treason

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You disagree with a British magazine? I thought it was your Bible so long as it agreed with your views.

    BTW, isn't the Boxster designed to be the cheaper Porsche or poor mans 911? I thought that was the marketing segment for the car.





    So by applying the same logic the F430 must be the poor mans Ferrari.



    Does the 430 look like the 575M or 612? Now does the Boxster look like the 911? To refresh your memory, the front of the Boxster and 996 are identical from the door forward.It was designed to be the cheaper alternative. That cannot be disputed.

    Also, are you aware that in the next couple of years the 911 and Boxster will share over 50% of their parts?

    Now using your flawless logic, can you see the difference between your example and facts?

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    It's the poor man's 911 because it shares parts with it? Ha. Never saw that coming.

    Nick, there's a BIG difference between the two notions, 'cheaper Porsche' and 'poor man's 911'. The former is factually correct (it IS cheaper), but the latter is plain stupid and snobbish.

    And what's wrong with having a cheaper alternative, anyway?

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    It's the poor man's 911 because it shares parts with it? Ha. Never saw that coming.

    Nick, there's a BIG difference between the two notions, 'cheaper Porsche' and 'poor man's 911'. The former is factually correct (it IS cheaper), but the latter is plain stupid and snobbish.

    And what's wrong with having a cheaper alternative, anyway?



    I believe it is an excellent idea for a company that wishes to produce over 100,000 cars a year in the next in a couple of years. Exploit what is successful in your product line. As a shareholder of Porsche I would love it. As a 911 owner, I am not so sure. Look at what has happened to owner value particularly in the US.

    BTW regarding the term "poor man's 911" I agree with your comments. I certainly would own a Boxster if they dropped the 997 S engine in it regardless of cost. From a performance standpoint, driving the CGT was an epiphany and had me salivating as to what Porsche could do the with the Boxster.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Does the 430 look like the 575M or 612? Now does the Boxster look like the 911? To refresh your memory, the front of the Boxster and 996 are identical from the door forward.It was designed to be the cheaper alternative. That cannot be disputed.

    Also, are you aware that in the next couple of years the 911 and Boxster will share over 50% of their parts?

    Now using your flawless logic, can you see the difference between your example and facts?



    Oh, I forgot, Sportcars are only skin deep, if it looks similar (company image concept comes to mind) then its the same car. And part sharing in between the same company also makes them the same cars no matter what parts they are (interior parts, etc come to mind here not engine nor suspesnsions, nor chasis, nor anything important)
    ... so if I follow YOUR flawless logic of part sharing and looks withing same company then the M3-CSL is the same as a 3-series four pot diesel, or a GT2 is practically the same as the 996 C4Scab, the Gallardo is the same as the Murc, the Maser coupe is the same as the Quattroporte, the AMV8 is the same as the DB9, a front-engined 1.6l CLio is the same as the Rear engined V6 Clio... hey, they share parts (some even the chasis) and look similar... does it still not sound silly enough or do I stop there

    Lets leave it at this, to you the Boxster and the 911 are the same car just one is cheaper, hence poor man's 911, yet others can appreciate the difference goes beyond the pricetag (though pricetag is one of the differences)

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    The Boxster is a good car and a great sports car. You dont see anybody else building anything close to it at all. It simply has no real market competitor.

    I think the Boxsters only major flaw is that it has no racing history. With no track victories it will never
    achieve 911 cult status until it does. Its only legendary in the minds of its owners.

    Even the Porsche 914 has a great history. Porsche should have gotten the Boxster into competition with the 986 launch. Maybe they have plans for the new Panamera Boxster Coupe to do that. lets hope so.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Well said Carlos.

    Nick,

    You are living proof that the saying "has more money than sense" is based upon true fact. If you got off your high horse you'd see that my point that the F430 is a poor man's Ferrari was just as stupid as your comment about the Boxster being a poor man's 911. Maybe the ironic style was lost on you. As for you statement that the Boxster "was designed to be the cheaper alternative. That cannot be disputed" - what utter bs. Sorry but your views are not fact as you like to think. At no point has Porsche said anything other than cash restrictions during the design and launch of the 986 and 996 meant that as many components as possible had to be shared to maintain the financial stability and independence of the company. The sales figures of both cars certainly back up the fact that buyers didn't seem to mind the similarities. And Aston Martin seem to be doing just fine by having a range of 3 new cars - Vanquish, DB9 and V8 Vantage - that all look visually very similar to the average person in the street yet vary in price significantly.

    If you do have some common sense you will stop your tired invective about Porsche and the people who choose to buy them. You don't like your Cayenne - fine. Sell it and move on. Stop acting like a spoilt kid and give up on trying to take the rise out of other people. We could return the favour on many aspects of your precious Ferrari's such as parts bin sharing of certain components over the years with other Fiat group cars and now with Maserati. We could point out that you rarely if ever see a high mileage Ferrari because they can't handle it without substantial engine rebuilds or suffering eye watering depreciation as a result. We could also point out manufacturing defects like the paint around the headlights on the early 360s melting due to excessive heat build up. The list could go on. But you know what, I don't care. If you want to buy a Ferrari go right ahead and most of us will be happy for you and will not come onto the Ferrari board and try to bait you for doing it because we're bored.

    Have a nice day.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Well said Carlos.

    Nick,

    You are living proof that the saying "has more money than sense" is based upon true fact. If you got off your high horse you'd see that my point that the F430 is a poor man's Ferrari was just as stupid as your comment about the Boxster being a poor man's 911. Maybe the ironic style was lost on you. As for you statement that the Boxster "was designed to be the cheaper alternative. That cannot be disputed" - what utter bs. Sorry but your views are not fact as you like to think. At no point has Porsche said anything other than cash restrictions during the design and launch of the 986 and 996 meant that as many components as possible had to be shared to maintain the financial stability and independence of the company. The sales figures of both cars certainly back up the fact that buyers didn't seem to mind the similarities. And Aston Martin seem to be doing just fine by having a range of 3 new cars - Vanquish, DB9 and V8 Vantage - that all look visually very similar to the average person in the street yet vary in price significantly.

    If you do have some common sense you will stop your tired invective about Porsche and the people who choose to buy them. You don't like your Cayenne - fine. Sell it and move on. Stop acting like a spoilt kid and give up on trying to take the rise out of other people. We could return the favour on many aspects of your precious Ferrari's such as parts bin sharing of certain components over the years with other Fiat group cars and now with Maserati. We could point out that you rarely if ever see a high mileage Ferrari because they can't handle it without substantial engine rebuilds or suffering eye watering depreciation as a result. We could also point out manufacturing defects like the paint around the headlights on the early 360s melting due to excessive heat build up. The list could go on. But you know what, I don't care. If you want to buy a Ferrari go right ahead and most of us will be happy for you and will not come onto the Ferrari board and try to bait you for doing it because we're bored.

    Have a nice day.



    As I plowed through your rambling thoughts it occurred to me how blind some Porsche enthusiast can be. To not acknowledge that Porsche built the Boxster as a cheaper alternative to the 911 (Porsche designated it as entry level Porsche) is tantamount to saying that the queen of England is a myth. Porsche induced buyers to buy the cheaper alternative by making it look and share parts with the more expensive model 911. Why is that so offensive to you?

    BTW there is hope for future Boxster owners. In a couple of years you can say you own half boxster and half 911 for half the price.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The Boxster is a good car and a great sports car. You dont see anybody else building anything close to it at all. It simply has no real market competitor.

    I think the Boxsters only major flaw is that it has no racing history. With no track victories it will never
    achieve 911 cult status until it does. Its only legendary in the minds of its owners.

    Even the Porsche 914 has a great history. Porsche should have gotten the Boxster into competition with the 986 launch. Maybe they have plans for the new Panamera Boxster Coupe to do that. lets hope so.



    My turn to shock you, Jim: I agree! ARGH! This has gotta stop!

    Racing history is definately one way to build a legend and legacy - but perhaps we simply need a modern James Dean to make the car more relevant, intimate and something more people can aspire to and find familiar.

    No doubt the Boxster success is built partly on the 911 success, but also on it's own heritage (the 550) and merits (technically a great car and the Boxster is very much the reason why Porsche still exists as an independent brand).

    I haven't heard any Boxster owner claim that the Boxster is legendary, like you refer to, I have only heard that most of the international motor press and thousands of happy owners find it a sublime sportscar.

    Promoting it in racing is a good idea, but maybe soft top and motorsports simply dont mix?
    Can't really recall any cabrio racers...but maybe I'm just getting senile?
    I'm sure they will let the new Cayman participate in racing. They could probably make a class of their own right away.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Well said Carlos.

    Nick,
    If you got off your high horse (...) was just as stupid as your comment about (...) what utter bs.
    If you do have some common sense (...) Stop acting like a spoilt kid (...)




    As I plowed through your rambling thoughts (...) how blind some Porsche enthusiast can be. (...) is tantamount to saying that the queen of England is a myth. (...) Why is that so offensive to you?



    Ok guys. I may not be the knight of politically correct behaviour, so my words may not have that much weight...but please calm down. If nothing else you'll end up giving old RC a nervous breakdown

    Nick, we all hear your argument and we understand your standpoint.
    Some may agree, others not.
    On a personal note, I'm not sure where you're going with this, or what point youre trying to prove - But please, understand that the vigor with which you repeatedly claim that the Boxster is "cheaper", "inferior" etc, can very easily be interpreted as a poorly disguised attempt to either flip people's switches or simply tell people in so many words that "your measely Boxster pales in comparison to my Ferrari".

    As I said, I have no clue if that is even remotely on your agenda.
    I only know you sometimes have a way of sounding very condescending and superior to others. I'm sure you're not, cuz why would anyone spend time on the Boxster board putting others down for the fun of it?

    FWIW I'd love to be able to afford a 360 Spider like yours, but at 600,000$ here in DK I`m afraid it's out of my league..this year

    I'm sure there are lots of less flattering details about the 360, and I'm sure it's cheaper than the Enzo...but I wouldnt spend time trying to convince you that your car is a rich man's FIAT, a poor man's Enzo or that it's "inferior" to the Enzo or 550 or any other car.
    Hence it's equally tideous work for you to convince a Boxster owner that his car is a low-budget, 911-wannabe, entry-level poor man's car.
    I'm pretty sure most car owners regardless of brand and model would take that as more than just a comment on the marketing of their specific car.

    Any car in the Boxster+ price range, I believe is anything but "cheap", "junior" or a substitute for anything.
    No matter if it wears a Ferrari or Porsche badge.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Please kiss and make up

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    thanks for the post it is great!

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    DrPhil said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Well said Carlos.

    Nick,
    If you got off your high horse (...) was just as stupid as your comment about (...) what utter bs.
    If you do have some common sense (...) Stop acting like a spoilt kid (...)




    As I plowed through your rambling thoughts (...) how blind some Porsche enthusiast can be. (...) is tantamount to saying that the queen of England is a myth. (...) Why is that so offensive to you?



    Ok guys. I may not be the knight of politically correct behaviour, so my words may not have that much weight...but please calm down. If nothing else you'll end up giving old RC a nervous breakdown

    Nick, we all hear your argument and we understand your standpoint.
    Some may agree, others not.
    On a personal note, I'm not sure where you're going with this, or what point youre trying to prove - But please, understand that the vigor with which you repeatedly claim that the Boxster is "cheaper", "inferior" etc, can very easily be interpreted as a poorly disguised attempt to either flip people's switches or simply tell people in so many words that "your measely Boxster pales in comparison to my Ferrari".

    As I said, I have no clue if that is even remotely on your agenda.
    I only know you sometimes have a way of sounding very condescending and superior to others. I'm sure you're not, cuz why would anyone spend time on the Boxster board putting others down for the fun of it?

    FWIW I'd love to be able to afford a 360 Spider like yours, but at 600,000$ here in DK I`m afraid it's out of my league..this year

    I'm sure there are lots of less flattering details about the 360, and I'm sure it's cheaper than the Enzo...but I wouldnt spend time trying to convince you that your car is a rich man's FIAT, a poor man's Enzo or that it's "inferior" to the Enzo or 550 or any other car.
    Hence it's equally tideous work for you to convince a Boxster owner that his car is a low-budget, 911-wannabe, entry-level poor man's car.
    I'm pretty sure most car owners regardless of brand and model would take that as more than just a comment on the marketing of their specific car.

    Any car in the Boxster+ price range, I believe is anything but "cheap", "junior" or a substitute for anything.
    No matter if it wears a Ferrari or Porsche badge.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Please kiss and make up



    Please understand I adore the Boxster. However, I also know what Porsche wanted it to be and for someone to attack me for stating the obvious is nothing more than shooting the messenger.

    I as I indicated earlier, if Porsche would give the Boxster the requisite hp to make it a world class sport car, I would be the first in line to buy one. But we all know the likelihood of that occurring is as good as our esteeemd President acknowledging he is a knuckle head who has killed over a 100,000 people to avenge his father.

    Hell, I wanted my wife to buy the Boxster S so I could play with it. However, she selected (to our joint regret) the Cayenne S.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    (...) However, I also know what Porsche wanted it to be and for someone to attack me for stating the obvious is nothing more than shooting the messenger.



    Ok, but thats where we disagree with you.
    You claim it is facts. I don't think it is.
    Fine if it actually is, but I think youre wrong.

    Personally I don't care if others perceive the car I drive as an entry-level Porsche, or a poor man's 911. It's a damn fine car IMO.

    As far as I have read in several motor magazines thru the years, and from what I deduct from Porsche's own PR material...
    *The Boxster is a salute to the 550 spider, not the 911
    *The 986 had to be cheap TO BUILD since Porsche's financial situation in the mid-90ies wasn't too good. Hence the use of many 911 parts such as hood, dash, doors etc.
    * Marketing wise it was launched as a new kind of Porsche (open+mid-engine) and a tribute to its ancestor. The 550. It was made to revive the Porsche line-up, since the 911 had become stale and simply not appealing to enough people.
    * The press quickly named it "an entry-level Porsche". The press. Not Porsche as far as i know.
    * Thru the years, and underlined by the all-new 987, the Boxster has gotten a life of its own, moving closer to the pure sports experience which the Cayman will probably underline.
    * The 924 was a poor man's Porsche. Not purebread Porsche parts, un-Porschelike layout and poor build quality.

    Let's get down to the nitty-gritty semantics
    The Boxster is as much a poor man's Porsche/ entry-level Porsche as a pair of diamond ear studs from Harry Winston is an entry-level necklace.

    The car actually saved Porsches a55, and revitalized an aging 911 line-up.
    So while it may not be legendary in motorsports terms, it is legendary in the sense that without it we would probly all be riding Volkswagens with a Porsche badge on the hood.

    A good automotive concept and clever marketing made the Boxster accomplish what the 911 couldn't: Rescue a wingshot company.
    Back in the mid-90ies the Boxster may have been percieved as an entry-level Porsche...but the 911 was definately percieved as an EXIT-level Porsche.


    Semantics contd.:
    Is the Boxster smaller and more affordable than the 911? Yes.
    Is it an entry-level 911? Not IMO.
    Is it an entry-level Porsche? Pricetag wise: Absolutely.
    Forget the pricetag, and I believe quite a few people would prefer the 987 to the 997.
    Do some people get the 987 because they cant afford the 997?
    Absolutely.
    Do they get a car with inferior handling compared to the 911? Absolutely not. In fact the Boxster is arguably the better handling of the two cars - at least according to some of the motor press.

    I'm not really sure why it is important for some people to brand the Boxster as the "small" Porsche or "entry-level 911".
    Personally I haven't yet met anyone who looks at my car and says: "Oh, you couldn't afford the 911?". Most people just say: "Damn! I'd like one of those".


    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Actually, the article doesn't say it's poor man's 911, it says it is more like a junior CGT. High praise, indeed. Why are you all getting so wound up? Read the article again and calm down!

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    skinnylad said:
    Actually, the article doesn't say it's poor man's 911, it says it is more like a junior CGT. High praise, indeed. Why are you all getting so wound up? Read the article again and calm down!



    Skinnylad, it's not the article we discuss, it's Nick's post

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    1. There is snobbery in almost every facet of life. Cars are no different.

    2. Just remember, any 911 owner that is small minded enough to look down their noses at "poor" Boxster owners, and I accept it is an incredibly small minority, if it hadn't been for them, their precious 911's would probably be no more than badge engineered Audis by now.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Is this the five minute arguement, or the full half hour? Can we just swap 'poor man' for 'man who is quite happy at this price-per-performance level', and stop going on about this?

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Is this the five minute arguement, or the full half hour? Can we just swap 'poor man' for 'man who is quite happy at this price-per-performance level', and stop going on about this?



    I am quite happy at this-price-for-performance level. Having read how the Boxster has wiped the floor with its only possible competitor I am actually even happier.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    Incidentally, there was a Boxster S with PASM vs Vanilla 997 comparison test in this month's Evo. Anyone catch that?

    Basic findings were that, yeah, the 997 is better but it's pretty close. The PASM seemed to enable later and more stable braking when cornering for the Boxster (which seems quite a nice real-world asset IMHO), and was more recoverable on the limit. The 997 had more stable traction powering out of corners though.

    Re: More junior Carrera GT...

    I've wanted a Porsche (mostly a 911) my entire life. In about six weeks I will become the owner of my first...a 2005 Boxster S. Even though this car is less expensive then the 911 it's still an amazing car. Period. I don't personally care that it's not a 911. In fact, I really prefer the 2 seat roadster. I don't want to tote friends or babies around in this car. This car is for me to take fun drives through the mountains and I'm pretty sure that I can have just as much or more fun in the Boxster as in the 911 Cab and save myself $25K. Fun for me is what's important...and Boxsters are FUN!

    Stacey

    James Dean vs James Bond

    Thanx for posting this article. It was a great article for showing the differences between the two cars, an SLK55 and Boxster.

    I agree that those driving the Porsche remind me of wanna be James Deans, but I may add that those driving the 55s remind me more of James Bonds.

    For being in the quaint English countryside with meandering roads and nothing but irresponsible cares, yes, it would be nice to only worry about feeling the road more, but in today's world, for those that need every bit of extra torque to dodge traffic and accidents on busy streets and fwys, and need a handy hard top in even marginal crime areas, it has to be the SLK55 they drive. Even as just a wknd car, in the real world, to get to the countryside for that pleasant drive, along with the enhanced ability to dodge various hwy opponents on the way, its nice to know, among other luxuries, you can have the top down on even brisk days with a warm, lovely scarf of air gently blowing around your neck while looking bright, new and gorgeous in your totally remodeled, revamped, stunning road machine.

    And if rain is threatening, it is too easy to pull over and zap the top closed. What a wonderful feeling it is to have an instant, thick, hard wall between you and the elements. In less than a minute, problem solved. And you have handled the situation beautifully, you are now in a rain car.

    And for those that want their cake and like eating it too, they can have as much fun as the Porsche on those twisty roads with just a bit of modification, the cost being less than tax on the car. Just get a Brabus full racing suspension kit.

    Both cars would end up at Granma's house, but the SLK55 driver, having a car with it all and nothing to be rebellious about, won't be sporting that James Dean chip on his shoulder, just a big, confident, has it all figured out James Bond grin

     
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