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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    I think its hard racing as well... I just want consistency.  If Silverstone was a penalty, Sao Paolo is a penalty. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    If that Merc still has that superior pace then expect bumper cars.

    Gonna be epic


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    In 10 years I would rather be discussing how close the fight was not that a penalty decided it. Better to discuss if Mad was an ass than if the stewards upheld the rules. I think this is why Lewis also considers it racing for the championship. The championship automatically elevates the scrutiny of the drivers.  That is what it should be about and for the fans to decide or even better - discuss endlessly. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    I think its hard racing as well... I just want consistency.  If Silverstone was a penalty, Sao Paolo is a penalty. 

    Did this yield the same outcome as Silverstone?  While VER maintained the lead it was for naught a brief time later.  Adding a penalty wouldn’t change the eventual outcome.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    throt:

    With the remaining tracks, I think the straight line pace could well easily hand Ham the 8th.

    RB, make no mistake, are concerned about this.

     

    But Red Bull are also not that worried, especially Max himself. They knew the Mercedes engines have a steeper degradation curve than theirs so the initial power advantage will be gone quickly. Their own engine suffers little to none degradation and is more consistent. 

    Of course they wanted to wrap up the Championship early instead of fighting till the last race. 

    Qatar is a new circuit, from the looks of it, there is only 1 passing zone, at the end of the ~1km straight, also the only DRS zone. That will be the only place Mercedes have an advantage. After the straight it's all medium and slow speed corners and short straights, that's where Red Bull's strength is. A Mercedes will be hard pressed to follow a Red Bull closely for most of the lap without destroying their tires in the process. By the same token, if a Mercedes is leading, Red Bull may not have the speed to overtake on the main straight but they can surely close right up for the rest of the lap.

    Saudi is another new track. On paper it will be a Mercedes circuit with 3 DRS zones. So a horsepower track. But the wild card there will be when the teams arrived, Hamilton's 'new engine' will be on it's 3rd race, degradation would have set in so the power advantage might not even be there anymore. More or less will be a straight up fight. 

    Abu Dhabi had always been known as a procession track, not much passing is possible. They did changed the layout a bit to see if there can be some passing, will see about that. The 'fresh' engine Hamilton got will no long be fresh, it might even be down on power compared to the Honda by then. If the points lead is close, whoever is leading going into turn 1 should win the race and win the championship. That's what Red Bull don't want to see, leaving it to the first corner of the very last race.

    At the end of the day, it would seems it's going to be a tight fight to the end for both the championships. Anything could happen. 


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    thuggy:

    I think its hard racing as well... I just want consistency.  If Silverstone was a penalty, Sao Paolo is a penalty. 

    Did this yield the same outcome as Silverstone?  While VER maintained the lead it was for naught a brief time later.  Adding a penalty wouldn’t change the eventual outcome.  

     

    FIA had always stated that incidents are looked at by itself, the outcome aren't a deciding factor. Hence why Hamilton got a 10 second penalty for mostly causing the collision at Silverstone. Which was 'consistent' by itself that the stewards had been giving penalties to the inside car all year. Ask Norris and Perez at Austria. They got the exact same penalty even when the outside car wasn't retired. Max also got one at Monza but a different kind of penalty as he literally just drove right over Hamilton. 

    In this instance the stewards broke their consistency by not giving a penalty to the inside car. 

    The let them race mentality wasn't there all year, if it did, Norris and Perez wouldn't have gotten penalties in Austria, those were just racing incidents. Just the same as in Silverstone. 


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

     

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.

     

    Now this is the thing. They keep saying they didn't want to affect the fight, but by doing nothing in the first place, they already influenced the outcome by sitting on their hands. 

    I am sure the drivers themselves don't mind getting penalties or not getting them, as long as everything is transparent and fair and consistent. Like if the rules say if you touch another car, it's a automatic 5 second and doesn't matter the circumstances. Or it's a automatic 10 second if one goes off track. There wouldn't be grey area that needs interpretations, and every driver on grid will be judged exactly the same way. Sounds harsh with automatic penalties, but think about them racing on street circuits, concrete walls all around the track with no run offs, Say there is a concrete wall on the outside of turn 4 there, do you think Max would do what he did? Or Hamilton for that matters? Both of them would have hit the wall and retires and doesn't matter who is right or wrong. So just treat all white line on circuits as a invisible concrete wall with 1 car width buffer, simple solution. 

    You are an American, you know NHL. They have one rule book for the regular season, but when the playoff comes they have another, as 'they didn't want to influence the game'. So the refs swallow their whistles and everything goes on ice. This put clean playing teams at a clear disadvantage as the dirtier team can do whatever they want without consequences, that's influencing the game. 


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.

    Solid application of hindsight. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Agreed, Having runoff area allowed Max to be super aggressive per usual.

    I actually was raised in Toronto and moved all around the US professionally so am very aware of the NHL as I’m a long suffering Maple Leafs fan Smiley Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    thuggy:

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.

    Solid application of hindsight. 

    Not sure what your point is.  Mercedes is very aware of this fact and why they are actively pursuing recourse… it’s a very live issue.   At best, they can close the points gap even further, at worst they are hoping to give Max a millisecond of hesitation at one of next races.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Agreed, Having runoff area allowed Max to be super aggressive per usual.

    I actually was raised in Toronto and moved all around the US professionally so am very aware of the NHL as I’m a long suffering Maple Leafs fan Smiley Smiley

     

    It's ok, all the Leaf's trouble are at least self inflicted. My team is the Canucks and it's well publicized that our team got the short end of the stick with the 'let them play' rule book change. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:
    CGX car nut:
    thuggy:

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.

    Solid application of hindsight. 

    Not sure what your point is.  Mercedes is very aware of this fact and why they are actively pursuing recourse… it’s a very live issue.   At best, they can close the points gap even further, at worst they are hoping to give Max a millisecond of hesitation at one of next races.

    You actually think the FIA will proactively add a penalty nearly a week after the race and overrule its earlier decision?  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    thuggy:
    CGX car nut:
    thuggy:

    I five second penalty (the minimum) would put Max behind Bottas and in 3rd.  So yes, would and will affect the outcome and the title battle.

    Solid application of hindsight. 

    Not sure what your point is.  Mercedes is very aware of this fact and why they are actively pursuing recourse… it’s a very live issue.   At best, they can close the points gap even further, at worst they are hoping to give Max a millisecond of hesitation at one of next races.

    You actually think the FIA will proactively add a penalty nearly a week after the race and overrule its earlier decision?  

    It could be retroactively to the Sao Paulo result; and yes it has happened previously.  There are many eyes on this and drivers are even saying if there is no penalty, they will be adjusting how they drive.

    https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/has-f1-increased-penalty-after-appeal/6637804/

     

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    thuggy:

    Agreed, Having runoff area allowed Max to be super aggressive per usual.

    I actually was raised in Toronto and moved all around the US professionally so am very aware of the NHL as I’m a long suffering Maple Leafs fan Smiley Smiley

     

    It's ok, all the Leaf's trouble are at least self inflicted. My team is the Canucks and it's well publicized that our team got the short end of the stick with the 'let them play' rule book change. 

     

    HA... Im still smarting from the '93 series where the refs refused to call a high stick on Gretzky.  So we are both victims of the "let them play" Smiley



    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Breaking news... Mercedes have been denied a right of review

    The F1 stewards have ruled that the new Max Verstappen-Lewis Hamilton footage was not significant

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1461672576871247875

    Sunday GP:


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    As expected, the Stewards have rejected the review. They are too proud to reverse their own decisions after all.

    Which also means other drivers will alter their driving style to take advantage of the non-ruling. Leclerc is the most vocal one, and this also means Max will get a license to run people off track again this week. 

    Max top FP1. Task for Max is simple for the next 3 races, he basically just need to finish. He can drive as hard as he wants against Hamilton and if in the process causing DNFs for both, even better. As Hamilton pretty much needed to win all 3 races to win the championship.

    Hamilton have engine issue and retired early. Don't think they were running PU5. the new one at FP1. So it might have been the PU4 that was giving him trouble or even the other older ones that's still in the pool. 

    FP2 coming up should be the true pace for them as race pace since it will be running in the evening.

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    FP2, Gasly is showing off how strong those Honda engines are, he is up there in both FP1 and FP2.

    For some reason Perez is off the pace of his teammates and the Mercedes. Heck he is even slower than Tsunoda!

    McLarens seems to have an answer to Ferrari's recent good form, at least in Norris' case, perhaps they could fight back this weekend and continue the fight for 3rd to the end. But even Ricciardo isn't that far behind Leclerc and Sainz.

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Seems that Hamilton is angry indecision … he was on a totally different level today. Hoping for an exciting race tomorrow… really great job again by Gasly. Perez disappointed again, weak performance. Max will miss his wingman tomorrow. Last but not least Alonso, p5 didn’t see that coming. 
    Very interesting track… 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Big surprise first. Perez is so off the pace it's not even funny. It would seems in order to boost Max's chance, Red Bull seems to have reverted to a Max bias setup baseline. Perez literally is a non-event during all the practices and quali.

    The Alpha Tauris seems to have the pace, but the Alpines are right up there too. What a pleasant surprise for them fight.  Alonso seems to be very on form. 

    Ferrari and Leclerc, oh boy. Leclerc don't even know where he can go faster. Same can be said of Ricciardo in the Mclaren. At least these two will be on man to man defence. 

    Higher up on the grid, Norris and Sainz have their own man to man defence also. 

    Vettel is showing the old fox still have something in the tank over the owner's son.

    Gasly Gasly Gasly. On one hand he is doing an awesome job pretty much running 4th since Friday session 1, but with the careless tire blow out it ruins the chance for Max to improve and perhaps steal pole. Could he be on Mercedes' secret payroll?

    Hamilton. He got some magic going on. Pre-event it was expected that Red Bull should have the advantage for sector 2 with the flowing corners. But boy, he proved everyone wrong. He had been having average (not spectacular) sector 1 times but absolutely blitzed sector 2 to gain time on Max. That's the downforce dependent bits of the track. Showing off his skills and that he still got it.

    Max. Very odd that his car bottoms up so badly pretty much for the whole track. His car is the only car that sparks so much on a lap. It would seems Red Bull was trying something cheeky to see if they can gain some straight line speed there. But I think it backfired as the skip block was just killing it's speed. he might violate the min ride height rule if he do that for 57 laps and completely worn down the skip blocks. His time was hurt by Gasly's blowout, but even if that didn't happened he wouldn't have caught Hamilton. But could have been a lot closer. likely between 0.1-0.2 second, not the almost half a second right now. 

    Bottas. if not for Gasly, could he caught and pass Hamilton? Likely not, but he would likely ended up a lot closer. He was leading practices after all.

     

    Funny how Horner was harping about Mercedes' rear wing during press conference, yet they were the one with the vibrating rear wing and was constantly checking the clearance. If anything, Red Bull would be the team to explore grey area to improve their top speed, not Mercedes. For the last 7 years, Mercedes had always bene known as the low drag high top speed car while Red Bull is the high downforce high drag lower top speed car. Mercedes is downforce limited so if anything they would want more downforce for corners. 

    Red Bull seems to have dialled out quite bit of rear downforce in order to find some top speed. Their car went back to having a nervous rear end like last few years, Max has the skills to drive through that and produce great times, but he has yet to find a partner that can do that, not Albon not Gasly and not Perez. But that nervous rear end also hurts Max's time a little bit as it's not optimal.

    Anyways for tomorrow, Max will be starting on the 'dirty' side, but very likely Max will have the better reaction and it will be a spectacle at turn 1. 

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-qatar-yellow-flag-breach/

    I'm curious to see if FIA will exempt him from a penalty again.


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    2018 White 911 GT3

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Max onboard: https://streamable.com/kjtmpw

    Vettel: "Vettel suspects yellow flag was withdrawn at end of Q3 “because Max was coming”  smiley. He is probably right!

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMedlandF1/status/1462119392024702983

    For those looking for precedents for the Verstappen investigation, both he and Hamilton were given three-place grid penalties (Mexico '19 and Austria '20 respectively) for single-waved yellows. Double-waved could be a bigger grid drop if penalised


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Gauss:

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-qatar-yellow-flag-breach/

    I'm curious to see if FIA will exempt him from a penalty again.


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    2018 White 911 GT3

     

     

    Yeah they will give him a 1 place grid drop just so he can starts on the clean side behind HamiltonSmiley

    NOT!

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Screen Shot 2021-11-20 at 11.39.31 AM.png

    Double yellow on the left, Gasly's parked car on the right. His foot is still pinned to the floor. 

    Even grab 8th gear after passing Gasly's car. Or keep going up the gears as he was on 6th when he saw the double yellow. 

    Screen Shot 2021-11-20 at 11.42.09 AM.png

    This is a slam dunk for no penalty, just racing incident if the steward uses the logic back in Brazil. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Wouldn't it be funny if FIA follows the NHL and do 'make up' calls.

    They missed Brazil's call so this time around they give Max a bigger than normal penalty as a make up. 

    This way they can make the championship race extra spicy. 

    5 place grid drop. so we can watch him dispatches more cars come up.

    Or even back of the grid and we can see him do a Hamilton come back.


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-added-rear-wing-checks-after-qatar-f1-qualifying/6802946/

    So Red Bull requested extra testings on the rear wing.

    Would have been super funny if they are the team that failed it. They were the ones with the flexy bendy wing to start with and also now the floppy wings now.


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Here is something more about Horner's BS on Mercedes' top speed.

    Alonso in the Alpine, yes that Alpine, went through the speed trap at 327km/hr. Without a tow. That's the end of straight speed trap.

    Weird that Horner didn't say anything about flexy wing on Alonso's car 🙄

    Hamilton only managed 317km/hr. Oh and Max? 1km/hr quicker, 318km/hr. So Max actually went faster on the straight than Hamilton. My assessment was correct, Red Bull is taking off a whole bunch of downforce trying to go faster on the straight, but sacrificing their prime advantage which his sector 2 the twisty bits. 

    Vettel managed 321km/hr, same with Sainz. 


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Screen Shot 2021-11-20 at 5.09.04 PM.png

    My mistake, Max was actually at 319km/hr for his fastest lap, his last lap. Hamilton got to 318km/hr for his pole lap. before braking. 

    Screen Shot 2021-11-20 at 5.11.03 PM.png

    Min speed at turn 1 however tells a different story, Hamilton got a 8km/hr advantage over Max.

    Screen Shot 2021-11-20 at 5.12.06 PM.png

    At the end of the following straight after turn 3 Max still have a 3 km/hr top speed advantage. But his cornering speed also aren't at Hamilton speed.

    For the rest of the lap, the theme is the same. Hamilton has a better min speed in corners and also better exits, getting up to speed quicker, basically area under the curve, aka distance, even when Max gets to a higher ultimate top speed. 

    Best part is at the end of the video, Max stayed on the gas the whole time with double yellow waving.

    His driver Max seems to disagreed with Horner's accusation that Mercedes is 'super fast' on top speed and something wrong his their wings. Mercedes just went around corner faster and also get up to speed faster. Ouch for Horner. 

    Horner keep circling back to Hamilton getting a 27km/hr advantage when passing Max in Brazil, without pointing out that his driver had a compromised turn 1 turn 2 and turn 3 there, basically crawling towards turn 4, while Hamilton nailed the exit of turn 3 to get the advantage. Videos have a bad habit of disproving Horner's garbage it seems. 

     


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