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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Shaich:

    At the end of the day that is racing... and guys like Lewis and Max are there to win, Max ix crying now that Lewis is celebrating his victory, but at the end of the day both where very very aggressive and when you play with fire you can burn yourself. I still think that Lewis was more to blame in that exact moment, but yes it was just a racing incident. And it seems that Max cant handle it. There was no intention to push Max off, that is very clear. I think that a new war has started today... but what would be F1 without any incidents... 

    Lewis was crying about Max not leaving him any room, which is complete BS looking at the replay, and the stewards obviously saw the same thing. The comments made by both, and the pleading from Toto and Horner are part of the game, but the facts are the facts.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Good race in general. Have to think LH new exactly what he was doing when he touched Max’s rear tire in that corner. Well judged but reminded me of the old Prost. / Senna stuff.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:

    In your world, he should have driven off the track and conceded position to Hamilton!?!   Because, that’s exactly what LEC did.  

     

    This is what? The 3rd time they came together at the start? At Mozna and the Spanish GP, Max basically drove into Lewis and had Lewis not backed off and drove off the track, they would have collided both times. Care to apply that same logic to those two incidents?

    Seems to recalled both were classified as 'racing'. 

    Entering the corner, Lewis was ahead on the inside line, Max pulled ahead as he has the faster outside line. Mid corner Max tried to shut the door on Lewis by turning into him, they touched and Max went off. All season long that was deemed worthy of a penalty and hence Lewis got the 10 second. Not the first time Lewis had gotten that penalty, he got one for contact with Albon last year at Austria. With the heavy fuel load and tires not up to temp, he understeer to the middle at the same time Max shut the door, that's how the contact was made. The same call was also made yesterday against Russell. 

    Max has all the space on the outside and run off, he didn't have to take that chance for a collision. In his mind, since Lewis was backing off every time, he was expecting Lewis to do the same, this time he didn't. The outside line can work, see Albon vs Kimi last year, and doesn't have to go off track. 

    Leclerc was different case. Lewis was lapping close to a second faster a lap, he stood no chance of defending. Once Lewis made the move, he isn't going to risk 18 points and hence gave Lewis a really wide berth. 

    Max could have taken a wider line around the corner, but in doing so he would have conceded the place to Lewis, hence why he didn't. But even if Lewis had gotten ahead cleanly, the race still isn't over as I believe Max could have reeled him in or do a undercut to pass as the GP was just started. 

    Ever since Max got here, he was known as the aggressive driver, borderline dangerous, with all his moves under braking before. He matured quite a bit and stop doing those, but weaving on the straights is still there. In contrast with Lewis, for over a decade, Lewis was never known as a dangerous one, nor aggressive one. He just just that much faster and all his defences are clean one move ones. His passing are all clean too, save for a few last couple years with the contacts. 

    One could say Max is the more entertaining one to watch, he is aggressive and takes lots of chances. There was never a dull moment. Lewis was the more clinical one, boring so to speak, but that's one reason why he has 7 WCs. He sees the big picture, winning the season war, instead of a corner battle. 

    The old saying about can't win a race in the first lap, but certainly can lose it on the first lap, is very very true. 

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Let’s face it. Physics won this one. Never ever find yourself on the outside of a contested corner. If your opponent is anywhere near you, especially hanging around your rear tire, never give him a chance to get close to you. It’s called a pit maneuver.  Max learned this ages ago, I’m certain of this. Part of growing up is to apply those simple lessons. I doubt Hamilton would put himself in such a spot. He knows he has a big target on his back. Max was counting on negative fallout preventing the move. Not a good plan 100% of the time. 
    Lewis won the race in otherwise superb fashion and gained valuable respect he needed. MS was famous for this type of intimidation and it worked well for him.  Trust me he did not care what others though about it. It was strategically vital. In my eyes it is the move which earned him this next championship. Not pretty but this is a hard sport which some forget. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    In another words, it's a racing incident. Let them race!!

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    So entertaining reading some of the comments on the Motorsport.com articles. 

    So many armchair pundits that has never been in a race car and raced yet stye think they know it all.

    Funniest one would be Hamilton purposely take a wider line to crash into Max on purpose as he was much tighter when battling Leclerc. They have absolutely no idea how a car handles. On cold tires. With full fuel load. Heck, they can't even  see the racing line. When Max and Lewis came together, they weren't even close to the apex of the corner yet. Cobbs has a late and blind apex and they were both still half a corner away, they were both trying to get there, at the same time, on the same piece of tarmac. if one takes a early apex at Cobbs they will be on the outside of the track at exit at those speed. 

    it's going to be fun watching the rest of the season for the battle between these two. Let's see if Max will come back even more aggressive knowing it's only a 10 second penalty, or if he would learn the first thing about winning a race, in order to win a race first he has to finish. When I was racing my engineer always reminds me to not take unnecessary risk, finish the race first. It would be very understandable if that was the last lap of the race and Max needed to stay ahead, that would the be the time to take a risky move. Definitely not during the first lap however.

    I can see Ferrari and McLaren benefiting from clashes between Max and Lewis this season. If Max keep taking risks like that and Lewis doesn't yield, they could very well keep taking themselves out of the races and Leclerc or Norris might actually have a shot at the title. 

    Wouldn't that be something. Norris became the 2021 Driver's Champion. Or Leclerc. 

     

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    Yes, full tank of juice, cold tyres, no way is that a clean cut inside overtake on one of the quickest corners on the F! calendar. LH should have waited till the next straight, he got very lucky this time indeed.

    This season could get really juicy. Hope max wins it.


    --

    throt

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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    kiss


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    CGX car nut:

    In your world, he should have driven off the track and conceded position to Hamilton!?!   Because, that’s exactly what LEC did.  

     

    This is what? The 3rd time they came together at the start? At Mozna and the Spanish GP, Max basically drove into Lewis and had Lewis not backed off and drove off the track, they would have collided both times. Care to apply that same logic to those two incidents?

    Seems to recalled both were classified as 'racing'. 

    Entering the corner, Lewis was ahead on the inside line, Max pulled ahead as he has the faster outside line. Mid corner Max tried to shut the door on Lewis by turning into him, they touched and Max went off. All season long that was deemed worthy of a penalty and hence Lewis got the 10 second. Not the first time Lewis had gotten that penalty, he got one for contact with Albon last year at Austria. With the heavy fuel load and tires not up to temp, he understeer to the middle at the same time Max shut the door, that's how the contact was made. The same call was also made yesterday against Russell. 

    Max has all the space on the outside and run off, he didn't have to take that chance for a collision. In his mind, since Lewis was backing off every time, he was expecting Lewis to do the same, this time he didn't. The outside line can work, see Albon vs Kimi last year, and doesn't have to go off track. 

    Leclerc was different case. Lewis was lapping close to a second faster a lap, he stood no chance of defending. Once Lewis made the move, he isn't going to risk 18 points and hence gave Lewis a really wide berth. 

    Max could have taken a wider line around the corner, but in doing so he would have conceded the place to Lewis, hence why he didn't. But even if Lewis had gotten ahead cleanly, the race still isn't over as I believe Max could have reeled him in or do a undercut to pass as the GP was just started. 

    Ever since Max got here, he was known as the aggressive driver, borderline dangerous, with all his moves under braking before. He matured quite a bit and stop doing those, but weaving on the straights is still there. In contrast with Lewis, for over a decade, Lewis was never known as a dangerous one, nor aggressive one. He just just that much faster and all his defences are clean one move ones. His passing are all clean too, save for a few last couple years with the contacts. 

    One could say Max is the more entertaining one to watch, he is aggressive and takes lots of chances. There was never a dull moment. Lewis was the more clinical one, boring so to speak, but that's one reason why he has 7 WCs. He sees the big picture, winning the season war, instead of a corner battle. 

    The old saying about can't win a race in the first lap, but certainly can lose it on the first lap, is very very true. 

     

     

    +1

    Lewis gave Max for the first time a taste of his own medicine! An it was more than deserved that Max got that lession as he was always taking profit of his very aggressive actions.

    But now this is over Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Racing incident according to the majority of the drivers spoken to. 'Nuff said.

    Either driver could have yielded and neither did.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    I find it very strange how so many people react... yes it was in that case more Lewis fault, BUT Max is driving like a maniac to protect his place, and he pushes also always pushes Lewis off in order to gain or protect his position. It was unfotenate that he was out of the race, but this can happend and Lewis did not do it on purpouse.... Thats racing, and the penalty was more than correct, what should they do ?? give him the black flag? Lewis was only lucky that he did not have any serious damge to his car. Dont get me wrong, I am more a Max fan than a Lewis, but still I think all was more than correct and I welcome racing like this. If max would be smart he would see the full picture and would not have risked as much as he did.... but his EGO is very big and that casued him to scoe ZERO,... Lewis on the ither hand did again all right, although very lucky this time....


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    DJM48:

    Racing incident according to the majority of the drivers spoken to. 'Nuff said.

    Either driver could have yielded and neither did.

    well said Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Shaich:
    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    I find it very strange how so many people react... yes it was in that case more Lewis fault, BUT Max is driving like a maniac to protect his place, and he pushes also always pushes Lewis off in order to gain or protect his position. It was unfotenate that he was out of the race, but this can happend and Lewis did not do it on purpouse.... Thats racing, and the penalty was more than correct, what should they do ?? give him the black flag? Lewis was only lucky that he did not have any serious damge to his car. Dont get me wrong, I am more a Max fan than a Lewis, but still I think all was more than correct and I welcome racing like this. If max would be smart he would see the full picture and would not have risked as much as he did.... but his EGO is very big and that casued him to scoe ZERO,... Lewis on the ither hand did again all right, although very lucky this time....

    I don't recall max to have somebody put in the barrier with 51g - also in my view when you don't hit the other guy it's called racing. People mix agression with somebody challenges finally a guy who drives since years in front alone with a superior car.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:
    Shaich:
    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    I find it very strange how so many people react... yes it was in that case more Lewis fault, BUT Max is driving like a maniac to protect his place, and he pushes also always pushes Lewis off in order to gain or protect his position. It was unfotenate that he was out of the race, but this can happend and Lewis did not do it on purpouse.... Thats racing, and the penalty was more than correct, what should they do ?? give him the black flag? Lewis was only lucky that he did not have any serious damge to his car. Dont get me wrong, I am more a Max fan than a Lewis, but still I think all was more than correct and I welcome racing like this. If max would be smart he would see the full picture and would not have risked as much as he did.... but his EGO is very big and that casued him to scoe ZERO,... Lewis on the ither hand did again all right, although very lucky this time....

    I don't recall max to have somebody put in the barrier with 51g - also in my view when you don't hit the other guy it's called racing. People mix agression with somebody challenges finally a guy who drives since years in front alone with a superior car.

    +1


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:
    Shaich:
    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    I find it very strange how so many people react... yes it was in that case more Lewis fault, BUT Max is driving like a maniac to protect his place, and he pushes also always pushes Lewis off in order to gain or protect his position. It was unfotenate that he was out of the race, but this can happend and Lewis did not do it on purpouse.... Thats racing, and the penalty was more than correct, what should they do ?? give him the black flag? Lewis was only lucky that he did not have any serious damge to his car. Dont get me wrong, I am more a Max fan than a Lewis, but still I think all was more than correct and I welcome racing like this. If max would be smart he would see the full picture and would not have risked as much as he did.... but his EGO is very big and that casued him to scoe ZERO,... Lewis on the ither hand did again all right, although very lucky this time....

    I don't recall max to have somebody put in the barrier with 51g 

    His dad might, have. Didn't even need a car for that. Smiley


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2018 Mercedes-AMG E63 S / 2020 Ferrari 812SF


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:
    Shaich:
    BjoernB:

    Max had this corner - If one hits with his front left wheel in a corner the backwheel of the other (while turning) he purpously turns the other !  Period.  The penatly was a joke - FIA is a joke. If Max would have barreled 15 times sidewards in the gravel the penalty would be much higher......I have no words anymore for this kneeling guy. 

    I find it very strange how so many people react... yes it was in that case more Lewis fault, BUT Max is driving like a maniac to protect his place, and he pushes also always pushes Lewis off in order to gain or protect his position. It was unfotenate that he was out of the race, but this can happend and Lewis did not do it on purpouse.... Thats racing, and the penalty was more than correct, what should they do ?? give him the black flag? Lewis was only lucky that he did not have any serious damge to his car. Dont get me wrong, I am more a Max fan than a Lewis, but still I think all was more than correct and I welcome racing like this. If max would be smart he would see the full picture and would not have risked as much as he did.... but his EGO is very big and that casued him to scoe ZERO,... Lewis on the ither hand did again all right, although very lucky this time....

    I don't recall max to have somebody put in the barrier with 51g - also in my view when you don't hit the other guy it's called racing. People mix agression with somebody challenges finally a guy who drives since years in front alone with a superior car

    Max drives extremely aggressiv, and Lewis backed off many times this season, otherwise we would have had many incidents. But more important is that it was NOT on purpose and they touched each other ever so slightly, but unfortentley in that case it had a very big reaction.... cars are touching each other all the time during a race and even much harder it was just the situation. Objectively it was a racing incident that had a very bad outcome for Max!!! You can say many things about Lewis, but you cant say that he as a driver doesn't respect his opponents, Max on the other hand is not so clean when it comes to overtaking or defending!!! That is a fact!  Again I am more a Max fan so count that into my comment.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    I am not dismissing this at all - but you just don't do this on a inside line in a 300 km/h corner when you know Max will come back-in on the race-line. I am not against Hamilton eighter he has grown over the years to a fantastic executer - but I just think it's Political BS on his homegrandprix - he knew exactly what he was doing.  Again - if you touch with yr front wheel the back wheel of another car at 290 km/h it's not just a "malheur" - just MY 2 cents


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Classic "game of chicken" and neither one backed down.......


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:

    I am not dismissing this at all - but you just don't do this on a inside line in a 300 km/h corner when you know Max will come back-in on the race-line. I am not against Hamilton eighter he has grown over the years to a fantastic executer - but I just think it's Political BS on his homegrandprix - he knew exactly what he was doing.  Again - if you touch with yr front wheel the back wheel of another car at 290 km/h it's not just a "malheur" - just MY 2 cents

    I said that it is Hamiltons fault, but he got a penalty for that, and IMO it was the right call. Was it avoidable? YES... but as they race each other it was clear that it will happen at a certain point.... for me Max is much more aggressiv and maybe it will also teach him a lesson, Lewis won 7 DWC not for no reason, most of the times he knows when to step back, but he was also loaded form the ast races I guess and he wanted to win at all cost... especially after losing the quali(sprint race).

    I personally love this season so far and I think it is very good for the sport.... Max has the better car, but he has not got the routine to understand when to step back a little in order to save his race. Lets hope for a good season.... I am really happy that he got out of the car without any injuries... 

    At the end it was a racing incident that could have been avoided,... 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Das ist es also, das Diagramm, dass Toto Wolff beim #BritishGP an Michael Masi gemailt hat. Ein FIA-Leitfaden für Kommissare und Fahrer, was im Zweikampf erlaubt ist und was nicht. Die detaillierte Erklärung dazu findest Du auf meiner Facebook-Seite unter https://t.co/gUBMiSLnSS. pic.twitter.com/P5pHpSv0Ft

    — Christian Nimmervoll (@MST_ChristianN) July 19, 2021

    Bild

     


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    AM


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    According to this FIA diagram, it was a racing incident. But HAM could have done more to prevent - he could have left more space to VER.


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    AM


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:

    I am not dismissing this at all - but you just don't do this on a inside line in a 300 km/h corner when you know Max will come back-in on the race-line. I am not against Hamilton eighter he has grown over the years to a fantastic executer - but I just think it's Political BS on his homegrandprix - he knew exactly what he was doing.  Again - if you touch with yr front wheel the back wheel of another car at 290 km/h it's not just a "malheur" - just MY 2 cents

    But HAM was significantly in front with his left fron tyre. He braked earlier or VER braked later. The impact was not HAM coming from behind. It was VER rear tyre coming from behind due to different braking points.


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    AM


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    You show me where Hamilton was significantly in front... I watched this movie, and I can't find it.
    For a brief moment, VES and HAM seem to be on the same height, but Max is on the outside and thus will be able to take the corner at higher speed. He left enough space for HAM, but HAM, being on the dirt, understeered to the outside and couldn't avoid hitting Max, who was on the racing line. Hamilton was further to the left than necessary and couldn't make the apex anymore. I am inclined to blame Hamilton, but I also know that these things happen in fractions of split seconds. Yes, Max is an aggressive driver, but I don't think overly aggressive. This is racing, and as sad as I am, I think it was a racing incident.

    To be honest, the diagram you posted Aldo, which situation of the four is applicable in your opinion?
    If you look at it from the perspective that Max was overtaking, I think the third image from the left is applicable, so it was Max's corner. If you look at the perspective that Lewis was overtaking, I think the leftmost image is applicable, and then the "Vorausgesetzt du schaffst sie sauber" is definitely applicable as well, as Lewis would never be able to drive that corner cleanly, hitting the apex.

    Anyway, I am just one of these livingroom drivers with no track experience whatsoever, so take my biased opinion with a grain of salt! wink

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    At 300km/h, in that corner, no driver / racing car should be where Hamilton was Smiley. Its the wrong line, specially with another car on the correct line, to your left. You have to see that very corner in "Live action" to get it.

    You could even argue he bullied Charles out of the way later, in that same corner.

    Again, he could have just waited for the coming long straight to do the overtake on the Charles, on older rubber and in a slower car.

    Whatever the case, to put it kindly, " it was punchy stuff by Lewis ", literally. Smiley


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    throt:

    At 300km/h, in that corner, no driver / racing car should be where Hamilton was Smiley. Its the wrong line, specially with another car on the correct line, to your left. You have to see that very corner in "Live action" to get it.

    You could even argue he bullied Charles out of the way later, in that same corner.

    Again, he could have just waited for the coming long straight to do the overtake on the Charles, on older rubber and in a slower car.

    Whatever the case, to put it kindly, " it was punchy stuff by Lewis ", literally. Smiley

     

    A case of giving Max's medicine back to him to try. SmileySmiley


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Haha true, I love how Max shakes up the field and pushes everybody to try their best, as that is what he is doing. It's not very sympathetic, but you don't get to be the best by being friendly I guess. At least we have some real racing on our hands these days. Just such a shame that these aero cars are so damn vulnerable, there is no wheelbanging, no muscling through, no drifting...


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Look at two turns prior to the accident. Left handed, Lewis on the outside ( rolls reversed ) and he was way ahead yet he backed off big time to give way to Max on the inside and sure enough Max went way wide on the exit where Lewis would have been. This shows the two totally different approaches to being on the outside of a contested corner. Lewis did not want Max anywhere near him to take a free shot from the inside even though he was ahead. No such logical concern two turns later on Max’s part. Take a look. Very telling. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    BjoernB:

    I am not dismissing this at all - but you just don't do this on a inside line in a 300 km/h corner when you know Max will come back-in on the race-line. I am not against Hamilton eighter he has grown over the years to a fantastic executer - but I just think it's Political BS on his homegrandprix - he knew exactly what he was doing.  Again - if you touch with yr front wheel the back wheel of another car at 290 km/h it's not just a "malheur" - just MY 2 cents

     

    And the stewards was consistent in giving out that particular kind of penalty all season long. 

    Just the day before with Russell, a 3 place grid penalty and that was just a spin out. 10 seconds for Lewis is a few step up the scale.

    It was unfortunate for Max to be unable to continue the race, and fortunate for Lewis to be able to. But had Lewis had to retire from the race, the penalty would likely changed to a 10 place grid for the next race. Now had Max just spin out and bale to continue, it would likely be a 5 second. 

    If you want to argue about biased stewards, may I ask why wasn't Max giving a couple penalties for forcing Lewis off track in the beginning of the year? SHouldn't those be a penalties too? How about Max weaving on the straights before they came together? The rules specifically forbid weaving on straights also. 

    Lewis may not be wise to stick his car there in the first place, but he didn't turn left or ease up on his steering wheel to get Max. On the contrary, Max made a hard turn to the right to try and shut the door on Lewis and from that they made contact. Before that hard right turn on the wheel, he eased up to give room, at that point his trajectory could still make the corner without going out of the track, well he more than likely would lose the position, which he didn't want to. 

    But come to think of it, had Max taken up his eased up line through the corner, and Lewis stayed on his, they should be banging wheels at the exit curb or right around there. Which means the battle would have continued. Like how Albon and Kimi did the year before.

    At the end of the day, this incident is still pretty much a racing incident with both driers unwilling to yield. And this year, every time it happens, the stewards have been very consistent in giving the penalty to the inside car. See Norris at Austria. He and Perez were battling in turn 4, Norris got the inside line, Perez stayed with him, even turned into Norris' car but who got the penalty? Norris. Few laps later it was Perez's turn to be the inside car against Leclerc, twice. And both times Perez got the penalty. 

     

     

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    One more opinion:

    Hamilton vs Verstappen: Who was to blame? | British GP | The F1 Breakdown - YouTube


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