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    Tyre choice

    Just a short post to say a little about the tyres I'm running at the moment.

    Since new in 2005, and for several sets I've stuck with Michelin PS2's, so this time I though I'd try out the slightly cheaper Bridgestone Potenza RE050A N1

    I've waited a while before posting my findings. I feel that the PS2 seemed more precise and had better lateral grip. Obviously changing from an end-of-life tyre to a new one, the new set is quieter, but I'd say that after run-in they are about the same in most other areas. Maybe a little less confidence in braking, a little more compliant and quieter maybe... It's hard.

    But in an instance of going on, around, and off a roundabout, the Potenza feels less keen to change direction and stick to the tarmac than the PS2s did.


    Re: Tyre choice

    Interesting subject... I had Michelin PS2's on my previous C2S and was very happy with them, changing them, like for like, whenever the occasion arose.

    My current GTS was delivered, from new, with Bridgestone RE050A's.  I was initially disappointed that I couldn't choose the tyres I wanted, which would have been to stick with PS2's, however that's the way it is - you get what you get and there's nothing you can do about it! 

    I don't know whether it's the tyres or the model (GTS), but I find the Bridgestone's performance, on this car, to be equally efficient in all departments as the PS2's were on my previous car! 

    Another strange thing is I don't remember what tyre makes I had on my previous five P-cars or on my BMW 8-series or my Lexus SC430..heart

    Tyres, it seems, have only become important from the 997 onwards, or since becoming a member of Rennteam..yes

    If I had the chance, I would probably change to Michelin Super Sports when the time comes, but only if they have become N-rated when the need arises.  In the meantime I'm more than happy with the Bridgestones on my GTS.

    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Tyre choice

    John H:

    If I had the chance, I would probably change to Michelin Super Sports when the time comes, but only if they have become N-rated when the need arises.  In the meantime I'm more than happy with the Bridgestones on my GTS.

    John:  I did switch over to Mich Pilot SS last fall; with some 4000 km on them now it is as always difficult to compare these with new RE 050 tires, but my sense is that the PSS tires have very smooth breakaway, slightly more forgiving than the RE050, and are slightly quieter than the Bridgestones (even new ones) on certain types of pebbly road surfaces.  Certainly they don't drive like race specials, which is the way they seemed to have been talked up initially.

     Re. the N rating on the PSS, the word seems to be that Porsche are unlikely to bother doing an N rating for the 997 cars, just for the new 991.  Don't fully understand the logic, but for many owners (me included) the fact that the PSS is N rated for the new cars is good enough to trust them fully - if I spent significant time on German autobahns it might be different....  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Tyre choice

    I understand that N rated tyres have some differences (compound, construction etc)compared to the normal spec in order to suit the Porsche characteristics, even though they look the same. The N rating is not just a seal of approval that a tyre is of a certain quality but it goes beyond that.

    Of course, a number of Porsche owners snub the N rating as a useless piece of Porsche marketing. Personally, I even fitted N tyres on a 1980 classic 911 I had for some years. On a modern Porsche I'd never fit anything else.

    As regards the PS2 to Potenza comparison, on my 997.2 I prefer the Bridgestones. The Michelin might be a little sharper (not to the extent that is relevant for road driving)  but the Bridgestones give a better ride are less harsh on bad surfaces and in the wet (mainly standing water) they inspire more confidence. PSS might have redressed the balance but I wouldn't know until they become N rated.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Tyre choice

    Our first Boxster came with Continental, the second one Michelin, the Cayman had Bridgestone as has the 997. Of all the Michelins were my favourite, I was told that the Bridgestones contributed to the Cayman's overly hard ride although the ride on the PASM equipped 997 is fine with them. Not driven a Michelin equipped 997 to compare though.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Tyre choice

    reginos:

    I understand that N rated tyres have some differences (compound, construction etc)compared to the normal spec in order to suit the Porsche characteristics, even though they look the same. The N rating is not just a seal of approval that a tyre is of a certain quality but it goes beyond that.

    Especially in the US, where Porsche customers usually buy tires at independent tire shops and not at their Porsche dealer (cost factor), tire shops are telling Porsche customers that the N rating is just a scam. Which is absolutely wrong. Why? Well...tire shops, especially larger chains, usually buy tires in huge numbers, so they get a special deal. The non N-rated tires can be used for all kind of cars, not only for Porsche and sizes are sometimes very similar or even identical. In Germany, we have a similar problem with larger chains but they started to change and to admit that N rated tires are different. Finally.

    In reality, the price difference between a N rated and non N-rated Porsche tire isn't huge, I encountered differences of 30-50 EUR per tire in Germany, which really isn't that much in my opinion. Especially the 911 with it's very special weight distribution, needs a good tire setup. 

    The N rating assures something very special: The tire XYZ with the N1 rating from 2009 is the same tire as the XYZ tire with the N1 rating from 2012. The N rating not only has a different compound/tread mixture/structure but also assures that the tire with the same N rating is always...the same. Tire manufacturers always "improve" their tires, so a Michelin PS2 from 2010 may not have the absolutely same compound/structure as the PS2 from 2012. Just another example.

    There are two things people never should care about cost on a high performance car: The brakes and the tires. Unfortunately people spend 130k on a sports car but want to save 100 bucks on brakes or tires. Smiley

    More myths regarding tires (repairs, tire pressure, mounting):

    1. (Punctured) tires can be repaired: Yes, they can. No, you shouldn't. Very dangerous. I've seen many patched high performance tires in the US and other countries, thankfully, this stopped in Germany. High performance tires with a speed index V and higher, should not be patched/repaired. NEVER.

    2. Tire pressure: Manufacturer recommendations suck. Wrong. Especially Porsche is very accurate about tire pressure recommendations. You DO NOT lower tire pressure for track racing, this is something people kind of got wrong. You need to drive a warm-up round, then check your tire pressure and reduce it to manufacturer recommendation (tire pressure is higher after warm-up round). Do not forget to correct the tire pressure after track racing (after the car and tires have cooled down...the tire pressure will be too low). 

    Adding MORE tire pressure than recommended doesn't help either. Unless you need to raise tire pressure because of maximum load or high speed driving (manufacturers usually have recommendations for that in the manual or in the car). Adding more tire pressure (more than recommended) doesn't improve driving stability, on the contrary. The car can get very tricky at the limit and you can loose control much easier. Keep in mind that with raising tire pressure, the surface of the tires actually touching the ground, is reduced. 

    3. Mounting (for example taking off summer tires, exchanging them with winter tires and putting the summer tires back on later on): Tires with a size larger than 18'' are very sensitive to mounting. When removing the tire from the rim, the tire can be damaged. This damage is usually invisible. NOT recommended. Same with track tires. Always keep a second pair of rims for winter and/or track tires, do not use the same rims for all tires you want to use. Dangerous.

    I know that some of you will not agree with me but this is not something I just sucked out from my own phantasy. Smiley

    Agree or not...it is YOUR life and your car you're toying with. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Tyre choice

    4trac:

    Re. the N rating on the PSS, the word seems to be that Porsche are unlikely to bother doing an N rating for the 997 cars, just for the new 991.  Don't fully understand the logic, but for many owners (me included) the fact that the PSS is N rated for the new cars is good enough to trust them fully - if I spent significant time on German autobahns it might be different....  


    The Michelin PSS was developed and presented on the 997, the tyre is definitely suitable to the car. I spoke to one of the engineers and he confirmed that by himself. The German presentation was performed on the Hockenheimring using a 997 as a demo car. Whatever reasons Porsche has not to dedicate the N-rating for the 997, I would not worry about it in this specific case.

    Just as a mere assumption, the grip levels of the PSS come close to the previous Cup tire which was only allowed on the 997.2. Possibly 997.1 owners should not become encouraged to fit the PSS on their car as reportedly the oil-circulation system is not on par with the one in the 9A1 and Mezger engines.


    Re: Tyre choice

    So just why are Porsche so seemingly reluctant (or long-winded) in N-rating the PSS for 997.2's..yes

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Tyre choice

    RC - your numbers are way off - my four Continental Ultra High performance All Season tires (same size, load ratings, speed rating etc as the N Michelins) cost me about $880 with road hazard warranty (never fix punctured tires!).  The Michelins would be more than double that.  Figure in that the DWS lasts more than twice as long (based on wear rating) that makes them four TIMES as expensive.  I also drive in all types of temperatures and weather, I can gurantee my tires give me much more traction in the rain, cold and snow so they are a safer choice.  I also love to drive long streches, very long.  I can run 4K miles in one weekend!  There goes a set of tires going in the straight line at no more than 80 MPH. 

    There is NO way Conti would make a modern tire that would somehow magically fall apart at 80MPH or 140MPG for that matter.  These are mass produced tires on which way too much is riding. Given the massive difference in Wear rating the N1 tires would fall apart two times sooner, that is a fact based on the wear rating! I have provided these numbers in the past - direct from the tire rack which sells both and has a great reputation. For driving in the US it is simply not worth it to spend 4+ times as much (not certain where you get $40!) for a tire that does not have any cold or decent rain/snow traction.  On the street you could never use the tiny bit of advantage the N tires provide (in perfect weather conditions) so the reduced treadwear is simply a waste.  Don't need that type of compound!

    If I was on the Autobahn and only drove in nice weather and infrequently as to not constantly need tires I would think your advice suitable - AND if I was crazy enough to spend $130K on a car.  If you consider my driving habits and environment you would see my point - I am certain.  My car was ONCE, eight years ago, a $100K car.  Now it is an average, high mile, $35K car - it is a fun car to drive, it is fast, well maintained and driven like a Porsche should be.

    Never do I consider I am risking anything by using the tires I do.  You are inferring that I am not thinking clearly yet I provide excellent justification for my choice.  I have had many N1 tires in the past and they can fail just the same - I tend to use them too long because they cost too much and wear out so fast.  (two sets per year got to be a bit much for driving at no more than 80MPH!). Slightly different compounds in N tires, give me a break- lol - that might be true but what is wrong with the other compounds.  It is JUST A CAR - it is much more ordinary than the old 911s used to be.

    Now that I have replaced my cheap stock, worn out, PASM shocks for the PSS9 I have to wonder how many people are using these N1 tires for ultimate grip and safety while running on OLD worn out shocks at 180MPH thinking they are safe because of their N tires.  Don't neglect the suspension folks.  My PSS9 with snow tires will outrun your N1 if the shocks are old and worn, like the PASM ones do after 6 years or less.  If Porsche was really so concerned about handling and safety they would have spend more on shocks but maybe there is not as much profit in that as in selling tires, N tires!  (Is there a kick-back to Porsche?)  HMMM, ya think?

    I appreciate your stand though RC - given no one has given me a NEW Porsche to drive and I am not in TIGHT with Porsche I am certain my viewpoint is more based on common sense than marketing.  Look at the real prices of the tire, if you can find them just go to tirerack.com, where I shop. 

    Keep in mind that Porsche also uses Continental tires and they do make an N tire of the same size - they are no some fly by night tire maker that does not realize people will put these on the 997 - those are not accidental sizes!  They would not make or sell a tire that was not 100% safe for that car.  Get serious and less paranoid please.  Your main point is safety yet the numbers don't substanciate that at all, look at the wear rating and cold weather traction alone.  The numbers seem to point to the DWS as being the safest choice.

    I know you all were waiting for me to chime in!  Peace

     


    Re: Tyre choice

    tire1.jpg

    tire2.jpg


    Re: Tyre choice

    Am I missing something?  DWS is half the price, included Road hazard and lasts almost 2.5 times as long, the fronts actually have a higher speed rating and load rating, the rear weighs a pound less.  All the other specs are too close to call except of course no SNOW OR ICE traction at all (do not use N1 in cold weather against these DWS).

    Help me understand how with a 75MPH max speedlimit in the states spending 5 times as much for the N1 is somehow safer when I then can't rely on those tires in even cold weather?  Why would I risk my 35K car with tires that have no traction unless it is warm out?  It is not like the DWS don't have excellent traction in the dry and warm as well.

    Even at autobahn speeds I doubt the softer compound helps safety (don't pull a lot of g's at 175mph - mostly straight line) and again the softer compound wear more quickly so I would expect a failure sooner if anything with the N tires.  Like when the softer f1 tires don't last as long as the hard compound. Smiley Continental would not apply the same speed ratings if the tires could not run safely at those speeds.  It is science and numbers folks. 

    Seriously, I have now driven with these DWS for many thousands of miles and I could not feel safer or more confident in them.  I really like them, regardless of the cost I would buy them.  Even if they cost more than the N1 because the ride is better, they give me better traction in all conditions and last so much longer.  Look at the numbers and hear my comments.  All I am hearing from the N side is that other tires are not safe.  I am not at all convinced.  Your actions behind the wheel are the biggest safety net.


    Re: Tyre choice

    We have discussed this before: The DWS is not available in Germany, especially not for high performance cars and for a good reason. Porsche for example offers an All-Season tire for the Panamera Turbo S...talking about performance...but only speed limited to 240 kph.

    All-Season tires are not fish and not meat, as we say here. They aren't good at anything, they are just so so for everything. If you are happy with your DWS, stay happy. This tire is not really what I would drive on a 911 but hey, to each his own I guess.  wink At least you saved some money and "showed" it to big money eating Porsche, right?! 

    Kidding aside: I wonder how many 911 owners would love driving around in the DWS or any other All-Season tire for that matter. Try a good summer tire like the Pilot Sport and you'll never look back. Also try a good winter tire for winter and again, you won't look back. The differences are HUGE and the Conti DWS isn't much different from other All-Season tires. They can't do wonders...

    Tire choices are essential for high performance cars. Like I said before, the differences can be huge.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Tyre choice

    John H:

    So just why are Porsche so seemingly reluctant (or long-winded) in N-rating the PSS for 997.2's..yes

     

    Most likely because they haven't yet obtained a satisfactory result from the succesive prototypes sent by Michelin, until they are satisfied with the safety and performance they will keep sending them back with info on what needs to be changed. That or the timing may not be right, such as when they are about to launch a new model, they may hold off the N-rating until afterwards so that new model may be presented with the new tire and its advantages. But now that the 991 is out, have they at least released the PSS in sizes for the 991?


    --


    Re: Tyre choice

    You're probably right Carlos kiss but it's frustrating all the same.  I was hoping to try the PSS's on the GTS when I need to replace the Bridgestones.

    BTW - are you still happy with your RE050's?

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Tyre choice

    John H:

    You're probably right Carlos kiss but it's frustrating all the same.  I was hoping to try the PSS's on the GTS when I need to replace the Bridgestones.

    BTW - are you still happy with your RE050's?

     

    I'm happy with the RE050! Smiley but I'm on the same boat as you, it comes time to change my tires soon and I wish they would get the PSS out already because I wanted to try them as well,  I thought that once the 991 was released that so would PSS with N-rating and in all sizes but doesn'r seem that way Smiley

    --


    Re: Tyre choice

    RC - you don't know the reason the DWS are not available in Germany, you are just guessing.  You are inferring that because they are not available they are bad!  lol.  Given that they can be put on any car and are very popular on many different sizes I doubt they are not importing them because they are dangerous on Porsches.  :-)

    There are many fast cars in Germany, only Porsche has N rated tires?  Are you telling me that Lambo and Ferrari etc. are all using poor tires because they are not N rated?

    Speed rating is speed rating.  They will not magically fall apart - they are modern tires end of story.  The differences in grip on the street are so minimal that you would have to drive like a madman to appreciate the difference.  I have tried BOTH tyres - you have NOT.  My PSS9 suspension is much more of a help in safe handling and speed than the difference between the DWS and the N tires.

    These are Ultra High Performance All season tires - Not the same as All Season tires at all.  To me the summer tires / winter tire combination is more of a compromise.  I can't use all the grip of the summer tire (the difference between the two) NOR do I want the huge compromise of winter tires.  Just because the DWS cost less and are not N tires does not make them drive that much different.  AGAIN, I have tried BOTH and you have not. You are simply guessing and not listening to what I have to say at all.  I have nothing to gain by voicing my opinion.  I respect that you follow your factory orders.  Now can you explain why there is no N rated winter tire or all season tire for the 911? 

    I trust my 30+ years of Porsche ownership and 100's of thousands of miles of driving 911 on all types of tires against your one sided view in this case.  Perhaps at the next club autocross I will compare lap times... doubt that would sway you.

    Bottom line - my car drives just like any other 997 but better because I don't have the old worn out Porsche PASM system anymore.

    Peace

     


     
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