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    '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...


    Direct quote: "... I hate to say it, but it feels - heaven help us - Porsche-like. In fact, a Porsche with better balance and power delivery."

    Road & track Corvette Z51 '08 review.

    Comments from Porsche and Corvette owners welcome.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Sacrilege! ATTACK!!!

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Talk is cheap...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Yes, the car - made by GM and half the price - is just as good.

    No wonder GM is the phenomenally successful company it is today!

    Maybe they can do something about it _looking_ like a GM car. You know, the boyish cartoonish watered-down styling, intending to please the masses.

    Ahhhh..., a little Corvette bashing..., just what I needed to feel better since everything on TV stinks tonight.



    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    TV?

    What's that?

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    That's the thing you start staring at when you're done bashing corvettes
    -Joost-

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I'm as much a 911 fan as any on this board. I'm appalled though by the primal Corvette bashing. It's a pretty good sports car, ya know? It has been cleaning up Le Mans and ALMS in GT1 ya know?

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Porsche could learn something in the bang for the buck department from the GM vette engineers. They have done a great job improving their sports car. Porsche has focused abit to much in the expensive add on frills that are soo expensive and oh so what in the sports car department. Yet, in the end I love my C4S and I am only to happy to enjoy the looks and performance of other great sports cars.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Who cares if it's better ? I'm a Porsche fanatic and love Porsches. I don't care if other sports cars might be better, good for them, I'll enjoy MY car and that will most probably always be a Porsche...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    LOL,
    I know it is a pretty good sportscar, and I think it deals well with the accusatioun that american cars are only good at driving in a straight line. Also, their bang for buck is very impressive. That's why I called it "bashing", to show that it has no serious intent.
    However, looks wise, I don't like them. Furthermore, my heart belongs to the 911, whatever you do with it. So, how cheap and well performing it may be, to me it will never be on parr with the 911.
    -Joost-

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Agree. My brother took delivery of a new Corvette in May with the Z51 package, among other options. I'm not sure how much the handling on the '08 version is more like that of a Porsche, but I would suspect that Chevrolet would have to make some significant changes to the Z51 suspension package option to achieve that.

    While I don't argue with my brother about the merits of the Corvette versus the Porsche, I did test drive a C6 with the Z51 package in May of 2005 (I ordered my 911S in late October of 2005), and, frankly, the Corvette didn't handle as well as the Porsche. At 100+ mph, I couldn't feel the road very well. At 25 mph in the Corvette on a city street, my teeth chattered despite the soft seats in the Corvette. Not so with the PASM and much firmer seats in the Porsche. You can tell the difference in handling even at low speeds. Hence my reasons (along with superb braking) for spending an extra $35,000 to get the Porsche.

    Corvettes have evolved along the lines of refining the concept of a front-engined/rear wheel drive car with the innovative use of a leaf spring (composite material if I am not mistaken) that runs transversely from wheel to wheel. Given the use of fiberglass in the body and other design decisions, the Corvette has been improved significantly over its life, just as has the Porsche 911 with its changed suspension and switch to a water-cooled engine (some air-cooled Porsche owners may strongly disagree with my opinion on the water-cooled engine being an improvement).

    I guess it all boils down to a personal evaluation of what you are getting for what you are paying.

    I'm still satisfied that I bought the 911S.

    Jim

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    2008 totally redesigned the steering system (not suspension), with the aim of adding much more steering feel. I'll be interested to give it a drive. The C6 I drove needed this improvement badly...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Sorry for the bashing. I think it's more about the magazines ALWAYS trying to create a buzz by the Porsche comparisions.

    If my buddy got a Corvette and was happy with it I would like his corvette too. It's a good car for what it is: a Corvette. Heck I would buy one if I had the garage space and if I were more of a car collector type.

    It's the "wannabe" aspect of the mag-buzz which turns ME off and spools up my bashing turbos.

    Maybe it's the psychedelic drugs I take every day in my coffee but those "just-as-good-as-a-Porsche" mag articals are a turn off because they seem to be trying to make me (us) seem like fools for paying way too much.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Once you get away from silly GM stereotypes, trying to associate the Corvette with everything else on the Chevy lot (which makes about as much sense as comparing 911's to Beetles...), and you actually LOOK at the construction and engineering and design-execution of the Corvette from a purely constructive and objective standpoint..... It's a damn impressive piece of serious hardware for $50 grand... There is nothing pedestrian or low-tech about any of it, unless you want to point fingers at the rear suspension design, but then you're really a pot calling the kettle black, as you're currently piloting a car that has the engine in a goofball location, for little other reason than a nostalgic hanging-on-to-heritage, which is kinda why the 'Vettes still have a transverse leaf... They know how to make it work, and heritage is a good thing, just as Porsche understands...

    Anyhow, I find the comparison between 911 and Corvette these days, objectively, to be a "wash"...

    Porsche 911:

    Pro - The 911 looks better, better fit and finish (but not "that" much better), has better nuance and road-feel and handling-precision, and carries a good "intellectual" image... And for those who get caught up (in what I find to be a bit silly after a point) in blind-brand-loyalty, it's a Porsche...

    Con - The interior tends to rattle as it ages, the low-end-torque is soggy, the stereo is marginal, and it's expensive.

    Corvette:

    Pro - Lighter-weight, more advanced sub-structure (which is why using the "it's a pedestrian GM" line is ill-informed), the 6.0L and 6.2L V8's are a joy (if you've got any red blood running through you) & stronger pulling at all rpm's, more conventional handling, less cluttered controls, all at a BARGAIN price..

    Con - Slightly cheesy styling, but not unattractive, less attractive interior, nuance road-feel and steering-precision slightly duller, and those who don't know how to, or wish to, judge it on its merits, will look down their noses at you due to non-hardware-related stereotypes, simply because it's made in the U.S., and has a little GM badge on the rocker...

    And with the 2008, that I've yet to experience, the handling and steering feel/precision, and the interior, is said to be greatly improved.. That really narrows the gap to a point, that I THINK, when you balance EVERYTHING including an actual consideration toward money-spent (too often commentary on here is made by folks who have unlimited resources), that whether you go with a new 997, or a new 2008 C6, you've made a fine purchase, and an equally meritorious purchase, dollar-for-dollar...

    There's no winners or losers here in my opinion, unless you insist on devolving into brand-loyalty and stereotype and stigma.... As a car collector, I laugh at people who are married to one brand... MAN, do you guys miss out on a lot of fine products, and a hell of alot of fun, while you spend your entire life giving a BJ to a badge!! It's fine to have a favorite brand, but why at the exlusion of all else?

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Anyhow, I find the comparison between 911 and Corvette these days, objectively, to be a "wash"...




    I agree with your pro/con list, but "objectivity" is not a strong point if one buys a sportscar - it's all about very individual preferences (design/drive feel etc.).

    Still one should be objective enough to acknowledge the strengths of a product which doesn't climb onto the first place of one's own "hitlist".

    I testdrove a C6 (MY 07) a couple of weeks ago for the first time and I found a lot of criticism (AKA bashing ) highly exaggerated.

    I expected a wobbling piece of metal and then I have been astonished how well the car hold the road at highspeed (280 km/h) on the Autobahn (also in high speed corners) - together with the torquey engine it makes for an excellent Autobahn bomber IMO (BTW very relaxed driving at highspeed) - it's ironic that most US-owners of this car never will experience this strong point, unless they are ready to risk jailtime

    For the weekend fun on the twisties (think of narrow European B-roads, not the broad US roads) the P-cars are the better tools IMO. Not that the Vette can't corner well, but it is (or feels) big in comparison and I missed the "scalpel" feeling of my Boxster S.

    As for the often bashed interior: the dealership had a Callaway C6 in the showroom equipped with a beautiful beige full leather interior + Recaro seats - looked really first class. The Salesguy mentioned a 12k premium for all the nice stuff.

    IMO I can't see how the MY 08 Vette will be "Porsche-like" just like I hope that a future P won't be "Vette-like" - not because one of them must be better in terms of objective data, but because it would be a pity if all sportscars would follow the same philosophy. It would be a poor world without choices.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    well said, 69bossnine. I agree totally

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    2008 totally redesigned the steering system (not suspension), with the aim of adding much more steering feel. I'll be interested to give it a drive. The C6 I drove needed this improvement badly...


    Hallelujah!!! Corvette steering feel is what killed my test drives in both C5 and C6 Vettes...

    For base US$48K (including $2K sport exhaust) the 2008 Vette comes with 436 HP, 430 lb.-ft. torque, should be a screamer. I wish they would give it a body closer to the Callaway C16 version (even if Callaway does borrow heavily from Ferrari 599GTB )

    http://static.blogo.it/autoblog/callaway-c16/callaway_c16_1.jpg ...now that would be a nice vette.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    IMO I can't see how the MY 08 Vette will be "Porsche-like" just like I hope that a future P won't be "Vette-like" - not because one of them must be better in terms of objective data, but because it would be a pity if all sportscars would follow the same philosophy. It would be a poor world without choices.



    You nailed it... Variety is the spice of life, and I find BOTH cars to be a kick to drive, in their own ways, on their own merits.. As Chevy continues to "fix" shortcomings, the 'Vette simply becomes a more attractive sports car to own. But the two cars (Corvette & 911) will ALWAYS have distinct personalities. They're just both GOOD personalities IMHO, this isn't the town of Stepford for chrisake...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Finally, we see level-headed comments. Thanks 69bossnine, Porsche-Jeck, to name a few.

    I suggest to all members who drove C6s before to try the new 08 to see if the steering is any different. I will.

    This was never intended as a Porsche bashing thread. It was intended to raise learned comments from experienced (not poseur) 911 drivers who also like to try other makes. All other members who tried to convert the thread into a Corvette-bashing please continue with your heads in the sand.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Once you get away from silly GM stereotypes, trying to associate the Corvette with everything else on the Chevy lot (which makes about as much sense as comparing 911's to Beetles...), and you actually LOOK at the construction and engineering and design-execution of the Corvette from a purely constructive and objective standpoint..... It's a damn impressive piece of serious hardware for $50 grand... There is nothing pedestrian or low-tech about any of it, unless you want to point fingers at the rear suspension design, but then you're really a pot calling the kettle black, as you're currently piloting a car that has the engine in a goofball location, for little other reason than a nostalgic hanging-on-to-heritage, which is kinda why the 'Vettes still have a transverse leaf... They know how to make it work, and heritage is a good thing, just as Porsche understands...

    Anyhow, I find the comparison between 911 and Corvette these days, objectively, to be a "wash"...

    Porsche 911:

    Pro - The 911 looks better, better fit and finish (but not "that" much better), has better nuance and road-feel and handling-precision, and carries a good "intellectual" image... And for those who get caught up (in what I find to be a bit silly after a point) in blind-brand-loyalty, it's a Porsche...

    Con - The interior tends to rattle as it ages, the low-end-torque is soggy, the stereo is marginal, and it's expensive.

    Corvette:

    Pro - Lighter-weight, more advanced sub-structure (which is why using the "it's a pedestrian GM" line is ill-informed), the 6.0L and 6.2L V8's are a joy (if you've got any red blood running through you) & stronger pulling at all rpm's, more conventional handling, less cluttered controls, all at a BARGAIN price..

    Con - Slightly cheesy styling, but not unattractive, less attractive interior, nuance road-feel and steering-precision slightly duller, and those who don't know how to, or wish to, judge it on its merits, will look down their noses at you due to non-hardware-related stereotypes, simply because it's made in the U.S., and has a little GM badge on the rocker...

    And with the 2008, that I've yet to experience, the handling and steering feel/precision, and the interior, is said to be greatly improved.. That really narrows the gap to a point, that I THINK, when you balance EVERYTHING including an actual consideration toward money-spent (too often commentary on here is made by folks who have unlimited resources), that whether you go with a new 997, or a new 2008 C6, you've made a fine purchase, and an equally meritorious purchase, dollar-for-dollar...

    There's no winners or losers here in my opinion, unless you insist on devolving into brand-loyalty and stereotype and stigma.... As a car collector, I laugh at people who are married to one brand... MAN, do you guys miss out on a lot of fine products, and a hell of alot of fun, while you spend your entire life giving a BJ to a badge!! It's fine to have a favorite brand, but why at the exlusion of all else?



    Great post.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    American cars has no passion.. I just have to admit Europeans are better in every way except the pricing.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Bon said:
    American cars has no passion.. I just have to admit Europeans are better in every way except the pricing.



    No passion?? Oh brother...

    I bet you give your car a pet name too, and refer to it as "she" or "he"...

    Talk about a totally baseless and foolish comment... I can't think of many things in life that invoke more "passion" than the sound of a high-compression American V8, and hasn't it been a decade-old "dig" on the Germans that their cars are too "clinical" and lacking in passion?? I don't particularly believe it, but that's what the Italians say!!!

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I personally drive everything out there that is interesting . Why so much " bench racing " all over the internet over what one reads or hears second hand about this or that car ? Is everyone that lazy or too young to drive ( but post ) ?

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    The Corvette is no lighter than the 997S.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Well, I guess it's time for the guy with the gold chains to pipe up. I have owned a couple of Corvette's and had fun with them. I was actually considering a C6 when I meandered by the Porsche dealer and, long story short, I factory ordered a 987S which I love. However, the '08 C6 has had some "significant" upgrades including an all new steering rack. I haven't had a chance to drive one of the '08's yet, but it's on my "to do" list. They have also increased HP and finally tried to take some serious strides at "sprucing" up the interior. All this with almost no increase in price. I've become a huge P-car fan but you can not get around the fact this is a serious piece of automotive hardware at a rock bottom, relatively speaking, price. In the right hands this car can turn some impressive times on the track, and I'm speaking road course. And I'd be surprised if anyone who gets behind the wheel of a C6 when they get out doesn't say they had fun. Ultimately though I'm a car guy and I can appreciate any sports car. Just may not always want to spend my money to own it though.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    2008 totally redesigned the steering system (not suspension), with the aim of adding much more steering feel. I'll be interested to give it a drive. The C6 I drove needed this improvement badly...



    Gary,

    I had a chance to drive a '08 C6 Z51, 6 speed Last Wednesday. I hadn't driven any Corvettes prior to this test so I can't tell if the improvements are significant or not, although on papers they are.

    I can compare it to my old '00 996 though. In the horsepower area I have no doubt the C6 is superior, just slight press on the gas and the beast is unleashed, I can't imagine what Z06 would be like . Horsepower is very impressive in particular the power delivery which is instantaneous.

    Handling wise I would say it's in par with my old 996, can't really tell if it's better or worse but I would rate it equally good.

    Interior was pretty much like the 996 MKI everything plastic except the CF accent in the center console. The CF in the center console looks much better in person than in pictures. I also found visibility was good.

    What really impressed me the most was the power and its delivery which, as I said before, was instantaneous no lags whatsoever.

    I would love to test drive a Z06 to see what it is like. Although the sales guy was trying to connivence me with 430/436 hp why do you need 505 for street driving. Unless you want to track it he said I should consider a C6 but if I ever decide to go that route it has to be the Z06, I guess it's guy thing .

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:...Horsepower is very impressive in particular the power delivery which is instantaneous. Handling wise I would say it's in par with my old 996, can't really tell if it's better or worse but I would rate it equally good. ... What really impressed me the most was the power and its delivery which, as I said before, was instantaneous no lags whatsoever.



    Interesting. I have to drive one one of these days.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    In general, the newer Corvettes are GREAT cars, tons of fun to drive and as has been said millions of times already, great bang for the buck. One of the problems has been road feel and if that has really been addressed, it just makes a great car even better now. Despite being a light car, I've always felt that they seem really heavy and bulky. Turning radius is brutal too, necessitating 3 point turns when it really shouldn't be necessary. Those are my beefs.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    PbPedis said:
    ... Despite being a light car, I've always felt that they seem really heavy and bulky.



    That is strictly a user feeling driven by the throttle mapping and steering weight. The new C6 must be as agile, perhaps more so than any 997/997TT - it has more torque at idling than a CS at peak.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I recently drove the '08 Z51 vette. I thought it was a crude lumberwagon. A somewhat fast lumberwagon, but still a crude one.

    I'd take a base 997 over that car any day. And, a base 997 doesn't excite me much.

     
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