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    Panamera MK 2

    Just look at what a few subtle changes could do for the panamessa. Smooth out the roof line, increase rake slightly, introduce a slight curve to the front quarter panel, and lower the whole car stance and you go from a frog to a Prince.

    Not a major re-design at all and you end up with something cool and desirable from something that is a disaster. Since even Jay Leno had more than ample head room inside, they can do this. Remove the divider in the back seat and redesign the shift area and central dash.

    I would even want one. Night and Day difference with minor changes!

     

    pana mk 2.jpg


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    I personally think that there won't be MKII.  Considering VW and AUDI will be running the show Porsche will become more of a Sports cars manufacturer a la Lamborghini.  Porsche doesn't need the capital to stand on his own anymore they've got VW now.

    If you recall the whole story behind Cayenne and Panamera was to generate more money flow to have funding for 911 R&D.  Now that VW and Audi have the SUVs and the Sedans there is no need for Porsche to build them too. This would be the same case as GM (Chevy Suburban, GMC Yukon and Cadillac Escalate) all the same different badge.


    --
    Happy Driving


    Re: Panamera MK 2

     Sorry Ron, this is not going to happen. Winterkorn himself said that they want to expand the range in order to sell 150000-200000 cars in the next couple of years. 

    Entry level below Boxster

    Another smaller SUV like Q5

    Another Panamera variant.

    Under VW Porsche won't turn hardcore- they've got Lambo and Bugatti for that.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

    Just look at what a few subtle changes 

    Smiley you name that few subtle changes?!?!? That actually is a brand new car!!! Sorry but you better describe that as : please redo the Panamera!!! Smiley


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Panamera MK 2

    pana mk 2.jpg 

    superimppose.jpg 

    I superimposed the good one over the bad existing one. I lined them up at the rear  window and it shows how close thay are.

    Some better sculpting for graceful lines and no interference from wendell and it would have been a winner.


     


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Look at the differing sizes of rear door and rims, the later one is a photoshop and not going to work out at all. I am not saying that there´d be no alternative to Porsche´s actual design idea but the concept below avoids answering all critical aspects. Interesting concept nonetheless!


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    @ Ron:

    Your story does make sens, however, if it is possible to have the porsche brand financially virtually independent of the VA group, I thinkn they will opt for this option.

    It does make more sense to keep VW, Audi and Porsche, with all of them producing Small/Medium/Large + Sporty cars, but all in a different segment. Off course, R&D will be shared over the three branches. In that way, they will be selling huge volume, without audi cannibalizing on Porsche or something the like... That is what I fear will happen. And then, we'll have 911 family, boxster family, Cayenne family and Panamerya family. Maybe even some sort of baby panamera and baby cayenne?

    This is how I think/fear it will happen.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Ferdie:

    Look at the differing sizes of rear door and rims, the later one is a photoshop and not going to work out at all. I am not saying that there´d be no alternative to Porsche´s actual design idea but the concept below avoids answering all critical aspects. Interesting concept nonetheless!

    You often miss the obvious point.
     

    Of course this is a pshop, but moreso, it was one of the earliest artists impressions of the panamera before it was unveiled.

    "avoids answering all critical aspects" - what does that even mean?????

    The artist in this case produced a beautiful sleek design that is light years better looking than the actual panamera and is just a few small tweaks different. That was what I was pointing out with this thread. And it is remarkable how close the 2 are.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Joost:

    @ Ron:

    Your story does make sens, however, if it is possible to have the porsche brand financially virtually independent of the VA group, I thinkn they will opt for this option.

    It does make more sense to keep VW, Audi and Porsche, with all of them producing Small/Medium/Large + Sporty cars, but all in a different segment. Off course, R&D will be shared over the three branches. In that way, they will be selling huge volume, without audi cannibalizing on Porsche or something the like... That is what I fear will happen. And then, we'll have 911 family, boxster family, Cayenne family and Panamerya family. Maybe even some sort of baby panamera and baby cayenne?

    This is how I think/fear it will happen.

     

    Hopefully Piech will steer porsche away from 911 domination and branch out into a bmw/merc/audi diversified product line. Maximize the badge for profit. Why not.

    Porsche technical, deisgn, and racing domination is a thing of the past - the mid 1980's to be exact.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    I don't agree with you.

    1. I hope that they will steer back at 911, or at least sportscars again. I fear though that they won't and that they will try to maximize volume by means of product diversification (you know, instead of having coca cola light, we now have coca cola zero for men, and coca cola light for women :-S In the case of Porsche, product diversification will mean dilution of the motorsports heritage, and create a feeling of brand values abuse under the porschephiles.

    2. I think that porsche is still top level when it comes to technical design. Their approach has always been that a product should be fully proven before you introduce it. (yeah, I know that went wrong with PCCB mk1). PCCC, PDK, Aerodynamics, not to mention their eingine technology. However, a; competition has gotten better as well. b; technical focus is now more biased towards environment and economics.

    MAYBE those last two will shift again back to pure performance when Porsche comes under the wings of volkswagen. I sure hope so.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

    Hopefully Piech will steer porsche away from 911 domination and branch out into a bmw/merc/audi diversified product line.

    cough! steer away form the 911 Smiley Porsche IS the 911 and viceversa, racerx. Lots of models came and went, like the 928, but the 911 is the only constant in Porsche and what best describes Porsche, its only unique Porsche model (no other brand has such a platform or is able to make it), the model that got Porsche through the tough times, the model that got Porsche its fame and racing pedigree, the model that still today gets more attention and prestige and brand image to Porsche, the model that has more fans and lovers that span generations, etc, etc, etc. If Porsche has one thing that they are not going to give away its the 911.


    --


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    The 911 will stay, not much will change with one exception though: the 911 will share much more technical components with VW, Audi, Lamborghini and others in the VW company. It will be even worse with the Cayenne and Panamera (second gen though).

    This doesn't need to be a bad thing though, time will tell.

    @Ron: Porsche will NOT stop building the Cayenne or the Panamera, on the contrary, a smaller Cayenne is in the pipeline, so is the Panamera Coupe.

    Porsche will be the sportier Audi brand in the VW company, Lamborghini stays the company for hardcore sportscar enthusiasts.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

    The artist in this case produced a beautiful sleek design that is light years better looking than the actual panamera and is just a few small tweaks different. That was what I was pointing out with this thread. And it is remarkable how close the 2 are.

     

    Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don´t see the massive differences between those two images than my time and effort could be wasted.

    - The rims are already massive in size on the Panamera, the ones on the PS would be around 24" or even beyond. Bling style, but hardly appropriate for a Porsche.

    - The rear door opening is far too small and crimped to offer decent access, especially for Porsche´s intended use in several emerging markets. A joke.

    - The foglight cluster in the front bumper´s cooling intake is derived from a Cayman and hideous in terms of size, especially if one would see this element in 3D or from a more frontward perspective. Not remotely realistic!

    The challenge on the Panamera is a. to hide its sheer size to viewers and b. to solve the proportional difficulties due to the high roofline. One cannot simply increase the critical elements (lights, rims) to fix this issue because there are certain technical limitations, apart from the appearance the car would have on a public street. That´s why this concept does not give a proper answer to these dilemmas, hence my comment above. Hope everyone can understand this... Smiley

    What it does provide, and therefore your comment about its early stage is important, is the anticipation Porsche created with the Panamera, to offer a sportive looking car in the four-door segment. Well, they did not (intend to) meet those expectations for various reasons and assumably that´s the essence of complaints. 

    Just as Ferrari´s customers have to deal with the California, Porsche enthusiasts have to bear with other concepts than sportscars and, even more so, with design themes that are not in direct correlation with the brand´s core values.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Carlos from Spain:
    racerx:

    Hopefully Piech will steer porsche away from 911 domination and branch out into a bmw/merc/audi diversified product line.

    cough! steer away form the 911 Smiley Porsche IS the 911 and viceversa, racerx. Lots of models came and went, like the 928, but the 911 is the only constant in Porsche and what best describes Porsche, its only unique Porsche model (no other brand has such a platform or is able to make it), the model that got Porsche through the tough times, the model that got Porsche its fame and racing pedigree, the model that still today gets more attention and prestige and brand image to Porsche, the model that has more fans and lovers that span generations, etc, etc, etc. If Porsche has one thing that they are not going to give away its the 911.

     

    Maybe to you.

    That has been porsches problem for the last 14 years. Thats why Aston, ferrari and lambo have surpassed them in performance, looks, sound, tech, and desirability. With audi, maserati, bww, and merc being equal.

    17 years, most of it as the number 1 production car available is what you call "came and went".  

     

    This 911 stuff is nomenclature. The ferrari 8 cylinder "platform" could have been called the same name all these years because it has done the same even less change than the 911. Mid engine 8 cylinder coupe with engine upgrades. Didn't change from air cooling to water cooling. Remember Carlos, air cooling, the raison d'etre for 911's.

    Boxster and cayenne + hedging got porsche thru the tough times. 911's didn't sell in the early 90's either.

    Porsches average person fame came from the 928 and movies. Porsche's racing pedigree came from the 917, 956, and 962 at Lemans and endurance circuits. And from the TAG turbo domination in the mid 1980's. No one watches GT class races. No one cares about 911's running around sebring or whereever.

     

    Look at sales totals for 911's. Porsche could not survive on those few sales. The cayenne and boxster kept Porsche afloat.

     

     

    NOPE, hopefully Piech broadens the range and throws some effort into luxury and better design. Porsche racing died about the same time as Al Holbert. Porsche should become VW's answer to Merc's AMG line-up.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Ferdie:

     

    Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don´t see the massive differences between those two images than my time and effort could be wasted.

    - The rims are already massive in size on the Panamera, the ones on the PS would be around 24" or even beyond. Bling style, but hardly appropriate for a Porsche.

    Porsche enthusiasts have to bear with other concepts than sportscars and, even more so, with design themes that are not in direct correlation with the brand´s core values.

    As usual it is my time that is wasted when responding to you.
     

    But I said superimposed! The wheels line up size-wise when superimposed.

    Me I want more cars from Porsche, just 1 restriction, they have to be good looking. This concept used here has been universally praised as the best looking of all the possible outcomes for the panamera. It is porsche bubble that will burst, when their turkey doesn't sell.

    I await Piechs treatment of the brand as he has done wonders with Audi and helped Lambo a little.


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:
    Ferdie:

     

    Sorry to burst your bubble but if you don´t see the massive differences between those two images than my time and effort could be wasted.

    - The rims are already massive in size on the Panamera, the ones on the PS would be around 24" or even beyond. Bling style, but hardly appropriate for a Porsche.

    Porsche enthusiasts have to bear with other concepts than sportscars and, even more so, with design themes that are not in direct correlation with the brand´s core values.

    As usual it is my time that is wasted when responding to you.
     

    But I said superimposed! The wheels line up size-wise when superimposed.

     

    Then leave it as is and stay in your own world, my friend.

    So you are telling me that those wheels line up size-wise? Smiley


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    I lowered rear lights for 2-3 cm and reshaped rr. fender  - everything else is untached ( incl. roof line & 5th door )

    1250870735260crna TT misha.JPG


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    I just re-examined the wheel/tire combo and the circumferences are a direct match between concept and pana. Rims maybe within an inch difference.

    The concept's body sits lower and there is a slight angle to the 2 photo's, BUT yes the tire circumfences match exactly.

    The wheels on the panamera (used above in my demonstration) are 19" panamera turbo wheels, the wheels on the concept would 20's with a lower profile tire to match overall circumference.

    A 20" wheel on a large vehicle is hardly huge. In fact they offer a 20" right now.

    pantire3.jpg 

     

    9.5" from center of wheel to edge. Edge is touching the edge of the concept wheel. I give you half an inch, There is your 20" wheel on the concept, NOT 24 or larger as you believe.

    That's my world. accurate. This artists concept was much better, you can shape the door any way you want.

    This was the most popular concept from years ago here on Rennteam. The artist did a great job before the real car was exposed. 


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

    Maybe to you.

     

    Maybe, but lets just say of the POrsche customers there is a lot of "me's" and very little of you's out there in the world hence things are the way they were and are, and Porsche does things accordingly. 911 was, is and will be the reference in Porsche (that doesn't mean Porsche does not make other good models).

     

    That has been porsches problem for the last 14 years. Thats why Aston, ferrari and lambo have surpassed them in performance, looks, sound, tech, and desirability. With audi, maserati, bww, and merc being equal.

    Surpassed? Smiley , too unreal to comment.

     

    17 years, most of it as the number 1 production car available is what you call "came and went".  

     

    Yes. 944, 928, 968... came and went, they had their reason for being produced at certain times durting the history of Porsche but ended going out of production when they outlived their usefulness...

     

     

    This 911 stuff is nomenclature. The ferrari 8 cylinder "platform" could have been called the same name all these years because it has done the same even less change than the 911. Mid engine 8 cylinder coupe with engine upgrades. Didn't change from air cooling to water cooling. Remember Carlos, air cooling, the raison d'etre for 911's.

     

    Rear-engined flat-6 platform. Unique and unchanged, just evolved over the years and the reference to which all other sportcars are compared to even to this date.

     

    Boxster and cayenne + hedging got porsche thru the tough times. 911's didn't sell in the early 90's either.

     

    There have been numerous hard times besides the 90's, the only constant is the 911 which always sold well relative to the times and market, and now sells more and is more succesfull than ever.

     

    Porsches average person fame came from the 928 and movies. Porsche's racing pedigree came from the 917, 956, and 962 at Lemans and endurance circuits. And from the TAG turbo domination in the mid 1980's. No one watches GT class races. No one cares about 911's running around sebring or whereever.

    We all know of your unrealistic infatuation with a 20 year old front engined four seater GT Porsche so I'm not going to give you a reality check because (1) I don't want to be mean even its not my intention to be (2) whats the point, its not going to change anything and you will just get more irrational, but don't let that infatuation make you resentful towards the 911 because it was chose in favor of the 928 when one went out of production.

     

     

    Look at sales totals for 911's. Porsche could not survive on those few sales. The cayenne and boxster kept Porsche afloat.

     One model can't sustain a company but the one that has been constant in the last 4 decades of Porsche history was the 911.

     

    NOPE, hopefully Piech broadens the range and throws some effort into luxury and better design. Porsche racing died about the same time as Al Holbert. Porsche should become VW's answer to Merc's AMG line-up.

     

    Porsche can broaden what ever they like, but at the heart of it will be the 911, always has and is the flagship model for Porsche, its image, its core fans, its history, etc. This is my point, they may bring new models, modify the ones they have, etc but they won't be steering away from the 911, the 911 is selling better than ever, it gets more coverage than any other model in the line up, has the most fans, and is the only model in the line to which Porsche has the recepy for and no one else in the industry can tap into, and a versatile platform at that that allows Porsche to extend to the Cab market, AWD market, track market, 2+2 market, Turbo market, supercar market, coupe market, etc with just one platform.


    However, VW answer to Mercs AMG line up and BMW's is evident that its already AUDI and has been for some time now, and they aren't as stupid as to morph an already succesfull and unique company to compete in everything with another of one of their companies. Porsche is a different player and company.


    --


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    Carlos from Spain:
    ............  it was chose in favor of the 928 when one went out of production.......

    It's worth mentioning that the 911 was chosen over the 928 by the market, not by the manufacturer. 

    928 production was down to 1 car a day on a good day when it was finally given its coup de grace, whereas 911 production was at maybe 60 cars a day. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    This are my ( really ) small tweaks , with good end results  -  IMO .

    plava original & mt.JPG


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    fritz:
    Carlos from Spain:
    ............  it was chose in favor of the 928 when one went out of production.......

    It's worth mentioning that the 911 was chosen over the 928 by the market, not by the manufacturer. 

    928 production was down to 1 car a day on a good day when it was finally given its coup de grace, whereas 911 production was at maybe 60 cars a day. 


    --

    fritz

     

     

    BS the history is over here http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20119302/Modern_History_of_Porsche__Fall_from_Dominance/page1.html


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:
    fritz:
    Carlos from Spain:
    ............  it was chose in favor of the 928 when one went out of production.......

    It's worth mentioning that the 911 was chosen over the 928 by the market, not by the manufacturer. 

    928 production was down to 1 car a day on a good day when it was finally given its coup de grace, whereas 911 production was at maybe 60 cars a day. 


    --

    fritz

     

    BS the history is over here http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20119302/Modern_History_of_Porsche__Fall_from_Dominance/page1.html

     

    Sureeee, whatever, like Ferdie said above, in your own worldSmiley


    --


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:
    fritz:
    Carlos from Spain:
    ............  it was chose in favor of the 928 when one went out of production.......

    It's worth mentioning that the 911 was chosen over the 928 by the market, not by the manufacturer. 

    928 production was down to 1 car a day on a good day when it was finally given its coup de grace, whereas 911 production was at maybe 60 cars a day. 


    --

    fritz

     

     

    BS the history is over here http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20119302/Modern_History_of_Porsche__Fall_from_Dominance/page1.html

     Maybe I would have believed this.. but it was written by a 928 nuts.... selecting all that was in favour of the 928.... I used to like very much the 928, but if you continue with this attitude I will start hating that car. And so will do many rennteamers... By the way the "true story" was very interesting... I see just two comments...


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Panamera MK 2

    ^^

     

    That's why all I did was use published reports - Reuters, the AP, NY Times, Road & Track, Motor Trend, Hemmings,  .............

     

    That is the history of Porsche not any bias. Unless it says "my commentary" or the 1 paragrapgh above the "from published reports"  it is from a national news source, none of it is me. Even the line about Jackie stewart, quoted exactly from a news source.

    Believe what you want, I deal with facts.

    Peoples reaction will just reflect on them, not me.

    just fyi, I was lucky enough to be driving brand new 911's in the 80's at triple digits when carlos and others were still making vroom vroom sounds with their toys. I was walking F1 pits a few feet from legends. The 911 was a nice little sports car, the 3.2 carrera was great. But the 928 was a whole other level and most people simply could not afford it. That's the reality.

     


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

    BS the history is over here http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20119302/Modern_History_of_Porsche__Fall_from_Dominance/page1.html

     

    If you would know who fritz is, you wouldn't doubt his claims. Smiley Smiley Smiley

    Of course HE is right.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    NO He isn't regarding the 928 and the market in the US.

    I was there and lived it. I was driving in a 928 in 1982. I was driving 911's in the mid 80's to Porsche showrooms.

    You once made a weird comment years ago here about 928's that were all souped up and couldn't handle or some such NONSENSE.

    My thread about the History of Porsche is accurate as all the numbers. It is historic fact. All of it from published sources. That's all news reports.

    As to the status of the 928 vs the 911 that is all accurate too. I lived it.

    None of what I posted is opinion. None of it was mine.

    To you guys with a chip on your shoulder about the 928- just enjoy what you have and ignore history.

     

    HEY RC - what specifically is incorrect in all those reports I posted or the car reviews or the direct quotes or the production numbers?

     


    Re: Panamera MK 2

    racerx:

     

    HEY RC - what specifically is incorrect in all those reports I posted or the car reviews or the direct quotes or the production numbers?

     

     I´m not RC and sorry to get into this conversation... but I think it is simply incomplete... nothing more...


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Panamera MK 2

    RC:
    racerx:

    BS the history is over here http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20119302/Modern_History_of_Porsche__Fall_from_Dominance/page1.html

     

    If you would know who fritz is, you wouldn't doubt his claims. Smiley Smiley Smiley

    Of course HE is right.

     I have not a clue who friz is... but I totally agree with him!!!  Smiley


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Panamera MK 2

     It does not matter if Fritz is Wolfgang Porsche himself.

    I posted the numbers - 3800 total US porsche sales in 93 (check the thread) 1000 of those were 968 and some were 928, the 911 was down to 2000 sales from 16000. So the market said we don't like the 911, if we use 911 guys logic.

    I knew people who had owned 928's and knew why they did not purchase them later on. Nothing to do with the qualities of the car.

     

    From 90 to 94 Porsche was a basket case with lousy leadership and losing talent. just a note Dr. Bez left in 91, Seems he had some talent, don't ya think??


     
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