Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times... - Page1

Dec 22, 2007 12:56:40 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007

Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

When asked why the GT2 was quicker:

"Ah yes, it's actually easier to drive. The GT has a long wheelbase and the mid-engine. It is stable but it takes longer to gather up in a slide. So the GT2 maybe breaks away faster, but is also saved faster, and I'm on the gas sooner." He also mentioned his quickest time was with PASM set to 'Normal' and TC and SC were off.

After his first test of the GT2 WR said 'This is the best car I've ever driven'.

I'm going to have to get one of these one day...

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Dec 22, 2007 3:04:04 PM

Heist: Rennteam Master; Loc: Washington, DC , United States; Posts: 4147, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 15, 2007; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Small, nimble, and powerful has always been the "Success Recipe" for any sports car.

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Dec 22, 2007 8:42:32 PM

scud: Co-Pilot; Loc: here , United Kingdom; Posts: 201, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 1, 2004; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:

After his first test of the GT2 WR said 'This is the best car I've ever driven'.

hom many times would he of said this after driving a new porsche?

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Dec 22, 2007 10:32:15 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: scud

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
scud said:
Quote:

After his first test of the GT2 WR said 'This is the best car I've ever driven'.

hom many times would he of said this after driving a new porsche?

You wouldnt expect him to say that the 2006 GT2 he drove was better, quicker, faster, and had faster lap time than a 2008 GT2 would you?

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Dec 22, 2007 10:53:42 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
scud said:
Quote:

After his first test of the GT2 WR said 'This is the best car I've ever driven'.

hom many times would he of said this after driving a new porsche?

You wouldnt expect him to say that the 2006 GT2 he drove was better, quicker, faster, and had faster lap time than a 2008 GT2 would you?

But he participated in the design and development of the CGT.

If pressed, he will qualify his statement and indicate he meant best 911 he has ever driven.

His comments are confusing. He indicates he can go deeper and get out faster in a power slide with the GT2. How does this square with TT lag? Having driven the CGT many times I don't believe there is a more responsive car on the planet. It may be related to the mid-engine configuration of the CGT and it power base.

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Dec 23, 2007 7:55:49 AM

fredb: Junior; Loc: france; Posts: 59, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 18, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
nberry said:
His comments are confusing. He indicates he can go deeper and get out faster in a power slide with the GT2. How does this square with TT lag? Having driven the CGT many times I don't believe there is a more responsive car on the planet. It may be related to the mid-engine configuration of the CGT and it power base.

you are right, you drove CGT many times and WR piloted it, that's the difference.

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Dec 23, 2007 3:42:37 PM

BiTurbo: Rennteam Master; Loc: X , United States; Posts: 3252, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2006; Reply to: fredb

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
fredb said:
Quote:
nberry said:
His comments are confusing. He indicates he can go deeper and get out faster in a power slide with the GT2. How does this square with TT lag? Having driven the CGT many times I don't believe there is a more responsive car on the planet. It may be related to the mid-engine configuration of the CGT and it power base.

you are right, you drove CGT many times and WR piloted it, that's the difference.

loooooooool

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Dec 23, 2007 3:47:15 PM

tortesq1: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island, NY; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Although superficially obvious, I attribute the CGT's extraordinary response to its normally aspirated powertrain. There is instantaneous response as there are no turbos to spool up. The F430 engine also has excellent response. I have not driven the new GT2, but several 996 GT2s. IMHO, the CGT is in a different league than the GT2 series. Also the sound of the CGT is just extraordinary !!!

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Dec 23, 2007 4:10:09 PM

Heist: Rennteam Master; Loc: Washington, DC , United States; Posts: 4147, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 15, 2007; Reply to: tortesq1

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

It's kinda of funny to even compare the GT2 and CGT.
One is a super sportscar, that's built off a platform that has to make comprises for many different variants which always carries inheret tradeoffs.

The other is an all-out near uncomprising super car purpose built for one goal ... to kill many an inexperienced driver

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Dec 23, 2007 4:29:15 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: Heist

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

The context of the quote was this, from the new issue of Excellence magazine, which you really have to read:

of WR's first drive in the GT2, GT2 project manager Alan Lewin said "He did several laps, then came in. He was silent, and I thought 'Oh no, what horrible oversight have we made?' After what seemed like an immeasurable amount of time, he said, 'This is the best car I've ever driven'".

WR and the GT2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvpMwtEPp30&feature=related

Oh, and FWIW, WR also says it turns into corners better than the GT3 RS.

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Dec 23, 2007 4:45:49 PM

Boyko23: Veteran; Loc: Sofia , Bulgaria; Posts: 1116, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 27, 2004; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
The context of the quote was this, from the new issue of Excellence magazine, which you really have to read:

of WR's first drive in the GT2, GT2 project manager Alan Lewin said "He did several laps, then came in. He was silent, and I thought 'Oh no, what horrible oversight have we made?' After what seemed like an immeasurable amount of time, he said, 'This is the best car I've ever driven'".

Maybe the CGT wasn't as great as everyone thought it was.

Oh, and FWIW, WR also says it turns into corners better than the GT3 RS.

Hey, friends...
this is just an exclamation and nothing more. Everyone of us finds something "the best" many times a day, week, year and so on... On the other hand CGT is not on the market for more than 2 years, compared to the GT2, which has to hit the floor vere, very soon...
GT2 is perfect car, but CGT is out of this planet - Period! And remember that CGT holds the record in Sportauto supertest for more than 3 years on normal road tires!

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Dec 23, 2007 5:43:04 PM

fredb: Junior; Loc: france; Posts: 59, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 18, 2006; Reply to: Boyko23

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
Boyko23 said:
And remember that CGT holds the record in Sportauto supertest for more than 3 years on normal road tires!

i think that made a big difference. With road tires, the GT2 won't be so fast.

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Dec 23, 2007 7:07:09 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:...He also mentioned his quickest time was with PASM set to 'Normal' and TC and SC were off. ...

Revealing indeed! He's just recognizing that the 911 suspension setup these days does not have enough compliance and makes the car jumpy (not to talk about the pounding the car takes on regular road surfaces).

The F599GTB and my C6 F55 come with a much more compliant suspension, perfectly controlled and stable with flat cornering - a far cry of current Porsche designs. Stiff suspensions no longer mean control and stability - it's an old wives's tale that does not go away.

PASM normal, as Walter says, is better than Sport in normal roads (he was in the Ring) but it's still too stiff in my opinion, making the chassis nervous and jumpy. Please note that I am not advocating wobbly boat-like suspensions here. I am advocating a suspension where the wheels are firmly planted to the surface the whole time and the chassis moves accordingly - this requires advanced dampers with non-linear control. This kind of suspension still communicates the road to the driver, but it is not jarring. I suspect many sports car owners (or even aspiring sports cars owners) have a difficult time adapting to this paradigm shift as the old one is so entrenched.

P.S. - I started to understand this shift when I first started driving Corvettes ('08 C6) last Summer. VKSF has long posted about this, namely raving about the F599 suspension, the same I have on my new '08 C6.

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Dec 23, 2007 7:57:18 PM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Well considering the GT2's lap time I believe the wheels are pretty firmly planted.

The sport setting would be better suited for a tighter, smoother, track like Hockenhiem.

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Dec 23, 2007 11:45:41 PM

Heist: Rennteam Master; Loc: Washington, DC , United States; Posts: 4147, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 15, 2007; Reply to: ADias

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
JoeRockhead said:...He also mentioned his quickest time was with PASM set to 'Normal' and TC and SC were off. ...

Revealing indeed! He's just recognizing that the 911 suspension setup these days does not have enough compliance and makes the car jumpy (not to talk about the pounding the car takes on regular road surfaces).

The F599GTB and my C6 F55 come with a much more compliant suspension, perfectly controlled and stable with flat cornering - a far cry of current Porsche designs. Stiff suspensions no longer mean control and stability - it's an old wives's tale that does not go away.

PASM normal, as Walter says, is better than Sport in normal roads (he was in the Ring) but it's still too stiff in my opinion, making the chassis nervous and jumpy. Please note that I am not advocating wobbly boat-like suspensions here. I am advocating a suspension where the wheels are firmly planted to the surface the whole time and the chassis moves accordingly - this requires advanced dampers with non-linear control. This kind of suspension still communicates the road to the driver, but it is not jarring. I suspect many sports car owners (or even aspiring sports cars owners) have a difficult time adapting to this paradigm shift as the old one is so entrenched.

P.S. - I started to understand this shift when I first started driving Corvettes ('08 C6) last Summer. VKSF has long posted about this, namely raving about the F599 suspension, the same I have on my new '08 C6.

The issue here is that you're trying to overcome decades long thinking about suspension set-up where it was all mechanical vs. physics. A car's suspension was completely reactive.

Now in the computer age, with the new crop of magnetic and rheostatic fluids instead of oil, suspensions are computer controlled active engaged systems that cannot only react to the various physical inputs - but predict before hand which makes them 10x better.

Weight penalties be damned, I'm a complete convert to the modern electronically controlled suspension after having done a back to back in a Corvette with Magna ride vs. one with a tradtional professional set-up suspension.

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Dec 24, 2007 4:51:31 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Heist

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
Heist said:... I'm a complete convert to the modern electronically controlled suspension after having done a back to back in a Corvette with Magna ride vs. one with a tradtional professional set-up suspension.

We agree.

I drive an '08 C6 with the latest Magne-Ride suspension - exact same setup and dampers used by the F559 and R8. 911's PASM pales against this - I actually tried them all, and not just for a quick test drive.

As I said, it will take an open mind to see the forest from the trees... and I'm sure many will resist the paradigm shift and will argue fiercely.

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Dec 24, 2007 2:15:34 PM

thuggy: Veteran; Loc: PA & CA , United States; Posts: 834, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: ADias

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

I think many people would agree that PASM is not the best system out there... go back and read many articles indicating the skittishness/pogo feeling and the general unsuitability of sport mode on most surfaces. RC mentioned it in his review as well. Many people, including myself, are modifying their suspensions as well with motons and bilsteins to improve the situation.

But with that said... the GT2 with is old tech seems to be kicking the but of newer tech right now

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Dec 24, 2007 3:20:13 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: thuggy

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
thuggy said:
I think many people would agree that PASM is not the best system out there... go back and read many articles indicating the skittishness/pogo feeling and the general unsuitability of sport mode on most surfaces. RC mentioned it in his review as well. Many people, including myself, are modifying their suspensions as well with motons and bilsteins to improve the situation.

But with that said... the GT2 with is old tech seems to be kicking the but of newer tech right now

I don't use the PASM Sport mode on my car at all. It's way too stiff.

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Dec 24, 2007 4:47:42 PM

intouch1: Rennteam Master; Loc: Red Sea , Egypt; Posts: 5752, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2004; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
Quote:
thuggy said:
I think many people would agree that PASM is not the best system out there... go back and read many articles indicating the skittishness/pogo feeling and the general unsuitability of sport mode on most surfaces. RC mentioned it in his review as well. Many people, including myself, are modifying their suspensions as well with motons and bilsteins to improve the situation.

But with that said... the GT2 with is old tech seems to be kicking the but of newer tech right now

I don't use the PASM Sport mode on my car at all. It's way too stiff.

i agree, sport mode on with the stiffer pasm mode is far too wiggly/wobbly on the street....plus all the nasty rattles kick in at a lower mileage....

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Dec 24, 2007 6:52:06 PM

thuggy: Veteran; Loc: PA & CA , United States; Posts: 834, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2006; Reply to: intouch1

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Many have reported that with modified suspension, sport becomes much more usable. Looking forward to finding out myself!

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Dec 24, 2007 7:16:05 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: thuggy

Re: Rohlr compares GT2/ CGT 'ring times...

Quote:
thuggy said:
Many have reported that with modified suspension, sport becomes much more usable. Looking forward to finding out myself!

Agreed, ever since I installed the PSS Damptronics, sport mode is actually much more compliant.

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