Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT - Page1

Jun 9, 2005 7:41:27 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002

Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

today's "auto motor und sport" reports that PAG decided to stop Carrera GT production at 1,250 units (instead of the initally proclaimed 1,500) because of the difficult market situation. according to the article, rolls royce and merc (SLR, maybach) are facing similar problems reaching their estimated sales targets.
very expensive cars have to be collecter's items and therefore be very limited -- like the merc AMG CLK DTM, the enzo or the maser MC12 which are all sold out.

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Jun 9, 2005 7:46:18 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Porsche needed to sell out all allocations before they started making them kind of like Enzo.

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Jun 9, 2005 8:37:30 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

It was the wrong car at the wrong price at the wrong time at wrong production numbers.

A 959 successor at 500000 Euro each, limited to 500 cars would have been a "better" product.

Porsche also made some strategic mistakes: it took too long to deliver/build the cars, potential customers had the time to "overthink" their decision. They also made the mistake that they didn't keep the spirit up among potential buyers, asking from dealers a lot of money for "Carrera GT" events in Leipzig instead of inviting potential customers and people who already ordered one to the factory and other events to keep them "warm" for their upcoming car.
I also suggested to offer driving training for those who put the signature under the contract and put down the initial payment. This would have created a stronger bond to the car and it would have increased confidence of actually being able to drive it. I know that a lot of potential customers/buyers actually backed down and sold their car or contract because they heard how challenging the Carrera GT is.
And the last point: Porsche missed the stock markets euphoria around 2000, the Carrera GT would have been sold out if sold around that time.

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Jun 9, 2005 9:04:41 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Quote:
RC said:
And the last point: Porsche missed the stock markets euphoria around 2000, the Carrera GT would have been sold out if sold around that time.

Very true

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Jun 10, 2005 1:37:38 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Quote:
zzboba said:
today's "auto motor und sport" reports that PAG decided to stop Carrera GT production at 1,250 units (instead of the initally proclaimed 1,500) because of the difficult market situation. according to the article, rolls royce and merc (SLR, maybach) are facing similar problems reaching their estimated sales targets.
very expensive cars have to be collecter's items and therefore be very limited -- like the merc AMG CLK DTM, the enzo or the maser MC12 which are all sold out.

Actually, I know for a fact that for the French market at least, Ferrari France went through a lot of trouble to sell the last allocated Enzos they had.
Quite a few clients backed out. They eventually did but my source told me 400 was not really to make it exclusive, it was a target sales number and they reached it!
Excellent marketing.
Same for the MC12 BTW, it was not easy selling the whole production, but they did it, still a couple available if someone's interested, as opposed to what the press may write.

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Jun 10, 2005 4:40:04 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Well, 1,250 cars at $440k is $550M. Half a billion $ is alot of cash. I wonder how many they needed to sell to break even?

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Jun 10, 2005 5:07:32 AM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

it all comes down to exclusitivity! i wouldn't want to spend half a million dollars on a car if i know someone else with half a mill can walk in to the dealer a year or two later and know he could get one too. which is precisely why i would pic a MC12 over an Enzo, first of all there are much less MC12's than Enzos. The MC 12 has a targa top

only downside is the Speedo only goes to 360kmh whereas the enzo's goes to 400kmh :/ a minor thing but hey big numbers always impress

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Jun 10, 2005 6:18:13 AM

blueflame: Expert; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 1700, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 28, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

The "break even" was achieved with 1.000 cars, (also from the AMS Article)

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Jun 10, 2005 6:36:59 AM

quartermile: Newbie; Loc: California; Posts: 6, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 25, 2004; Reply to: blueflame

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

It's not a "half million dollar" car, and they are lucky to get $400K for it these days even at 1,250 units. By the time the F430 Stradale comes out the CGT will probably drop to $250K and the F430 is a far more practical car.

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Jun 10, 2005 7:06:29 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: quartermile

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

If and When Porsche does sell 1250 CGT's It will be some type of sales record for exotic super class cars.

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Jun 10, 2005 8:38:23 AM

trz: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Trz

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Jun 10, 2005 12:19:28 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: trz

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Margins are super juicy on the CGT. there are similar to a 911 TT or a Cayenne Turbo ie 25%....

So I suspect the break-even was lower than 1000 units.

Inventories (in the US) are rather low (less than 20 days of sales), so I suspect it's the order intake level that should be weakish to justify such a decision (if it's true).

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Jun 10, 2005 12:37:18 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Don't overlook the fact that Porsche generated more than twice the revenue with the CGT than Ferrari did with the Enzo, it's not only about break-even.....

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Jun 10, 2005 12:45:05 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
964C2 said:
Don't overlook the fact that Porsche generated more than twice the revenue with the CGT than Ferrari did with the Enzo, it's not only about break-even.....

which proves that the CGT is overpriced and the enzo is not

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Jun 10, 2005 1:41:40 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

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Jun 10, 2005 5:19:21 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
If and When Porsche does sell 1250 CGT's It will be some type of sales record for exotic super class cars.

Ferrari had no trouble selling ~1350 F40s.

Greg A

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Jun 10, 2005 7:10:13 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: teflon

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Quote:
teflon said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
If and When Porsche does sell 1250 CGT's It will be some type of sales record for exotic super class cars.

Ferrari had no trouble selling ~1350 F40s.

Greg A

Thats a lotta F40's!!!! Impressive!

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Jun 10, 2005 7:17:17 PM

Turbo: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 29, 2003; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
EricAlain said:

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

That's the way it is, so drop the dealer price down.

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Jun 10, 2005 7:35:23 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
EricAlain said:

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

Are you a member of the Communist party or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

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Jun 10, 2005 9:31:02 PM

Radar: Co-Pilot; Loc: The Frozen North; Posts: 189, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
svtrader1 said:Are you a member of the Communist party or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

ROFL!

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Jun 11, 2005 12:54:48 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
EricAlain said:

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

I could not have said it any better!

If you factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's in the US, the rip off is biblical. It is one thing to make a very good car but another to build in a profit margin which rapes the buyer.

BTW, if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee.

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Jun 11, 2005 1:12:21 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
EricAlain said:
A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

Ok, and how much is a 'decent' ripoff, in $? $0, I suppose?

Nice to have you back, Nick

I'm glad you found strength to keep it up...

Quote:
if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee.

Yup, it's very nice to be told how much money you're allowed to make..Seen that before, it ain't pretty at all.

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Jun 11, 2005 2:10:48 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
EricAlain said:

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

I could not have said it any better! If you factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's in the US, the rip off is biblical. It is one thing to make a very good car but another to build in a profit margin which rapes the buyer.

BTW, if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee. [/quot

Taken that new red Ferrari of yours thru lenisn car wash too many times??

Porsche pricing a ripoff of Biblical proportions?The Romans had a better tax rate and consumer pricing index than we do currently. So get your rip off eras right.

Nick, since you object to Porsches profit margin, do you also object to ridiculous salaries and fees? What about
trustfund people? what about license sale revenues for dead artists going to their living relatives? what about people
with so much cumulative family wealth that even after all taxes paid can dither in luxury between la Jolla, Aspen and Manahattan and points east.

What say you Cali Commissar??

To be consistent, you have to be consistent as Yogi Berra would say.

If you were any decent sort of Red you would seek to reduce Porsche to a state enterprise that builds vehicles for the internal security forces and the elite of the Orange County
Politburo.Don't bother to moan about how much they charge those with ample checkbooks and desire in their eyes.

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Jun 11, 2005 3:25:16 AM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

What a sham. Recently I was on the Porsche website looking at some of the special interior options and the prices were not to be believed. I think "carrera white" gauge backgrounds were $800!!!

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Jun 11, 2005 7:11:42 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
EricAlain said:

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

So... any amount above cost is defined as "ripping you off"??? So everybody should operate at zero profit levels? Niiiice. Maybe I should stop ripping off my employer and supply my services at cost.

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Jun 11, 2005 7:21:05 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
EricAlain said:

If you're a client, ALL Porsche cars are outrageously overpriced .... if you're a shareholder, they are just adequately priced ....

Keep in mind, their operating margin is around 17%. Porsche is making around Euro 15,000 pre-tax profit per unit sold !!! A way to look at it, is to say that Porsche is ripping you off by Euro 15,000 on average when you buy a car from them !!!

I could not have said it any better! If you factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's in the US, the rip off is biblical. It is one thing to make a very good car but another to build in a profit margin which rapes the buyer.

BTW, if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee.

Nick, can I ask what your profit margin is based on what you charge your clients in your law practice? Is it more than 17% above your cost?

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Jun 11, 2005 11:42:45 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12680, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
teflon said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
If and When Porsche does sell 1250 CGT's It will be some type of sales record for exotic super class cars.

Ferrari had no trouble selling ~1350 F40s.

Greg A

Thats a lotta F40's!!!! Impressive!

That was at the very height of the "Death-of-Enzo-Ferrari-hysteria". That's a different story and not comparable to today's situation.

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Jun 11, 2005 12:28:05 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Glad to see you again, Nick.

I think that customers actually are willing to pay a lot for something they believe it is a good product. But if they get the feeling that they're getting ripped off...

This is why I don't understand Porsche at all sometimes: I would have gladly paid 10000 Euro more for a 997 Carrera S with let's say 390 HP and a few enhancements.

I'm also sure that if Porsche offers a 997 Turbo with 520 HP, adaptive suspension system, sequential shifting system, etc. from the start, people are willing to pay a little bit more than they paid for the old Turbo.

Anyway, the high production figures of Porsche have one TRUE advantage for buyers: you get used cars or dealer demo cars much cheaper than in the past.
Right now I'm thinking about getting a used factory owned 997 Turbo around one year or so after introduction.
It may save me 30000 Euro at least.

Personally, I don't think the Carrera GT is a ripoff but I always said that this car is not really what I expected from Porsche. Don't get me wrong: I would want to own one and if I would have the money to buy one without having to worry about my kids' future, I would do so. But this is not a car for everybody and I've seen quite some disappointments.

I always loved the 959 and I always wished to see a successor. When the 996 Turbo showed up, it was some sort of "little" 959 for me, this is why I loved this car so much.
And it was easy to drive up to a certain point, a great car even for those who don't have always the knife between their teeth on the track.

That said, the CGT is a great car and it will make it's way into Porsche history. But it was the wrong product for the wrong people at the wrong time. And way too many have been built.

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Jun 11, 2005 1:25:08 PM

ARMD009: Pilot; Loc: FL, united states; Posts: 358, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

RC,

"if" the 997 turbo gets an adaptive suspension system and sequential shifting system (DSG), what will this add to the final weight of the car ?

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Jun 11, 2005 1:41:25 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ARMD009

Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

Nothing much in theory, the adaptive suspension on the 997S doesn't add any noticeable weight since the -20mm 997S I believe weighs the same. And the DSG should be roughly the same weight as a manual like the other secuential boxes are (SMG, F1, Cambiocorsa, E-gear, Selespeed, etc.), its not a heavy hydrolic torque converter type auto like the Tiptronic.

Question is though, how much heavier, or lighter, is the rumored new electronic AWD system of the 997TT vs the previous viscous-coupling center diff AWD system... if there is really a new system

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Porsche to build "only" around 1,250 Carrera GT

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